$15 Seattle Minimum Wage Not Working Out

[gnjsdad]

Do you own a company? Have you ever created a job and hired a person? I have …every company is different and market forces do work. I never once hired a person at minimum wage. I did have to be competitive. My company competed with very large even multinational firms and with very small firms. It was difficult position …I could not afford the same salary and benefits of those huge multidisciplinary firms but I had to offer more than the very small sole proprietor …

I paid good wages more than twice the minimum for technical staff and several dollars more per hour for clerical and non technical staff. I paid 100% of my employees health insurance before the ACA, offered 6 paid holidays and a weeks paid vacation each year plus a 3% match to their Simple IRA … I had to do all of that to attract and keep high quality employees.

Sounds like in order to be competitive, you had to hire and keep skilled labor. Granted.

Yet…

YADA:

Merely offering $1 just wouldn’t work and won’t work long term to sustain a business.

To the contrary, offering $1 DOES work quite well. Not only large multinationals, but up and coming small business entrepreneurs do this. When they “move production overseas”, what they are doing is having their products made in places like China, Vietnam, Honduras, and Bangladesh where workers who manufacture their products might not even get $1 per hour in wages. It is Walmart’s business model . These places don’t have minimum wage laws. Many large scale manufacturers lobby hard against minimum wage laws here. Coincidence? A matter of principle?

YADA:

The arbitrary minimum wage is not helpful. They speak of it now days as needing to be a family living wage …but it was not envisioned as such when first adopted …it was supposed to be an entry level wage.

Yes, it was absolutely meant to be an entry level wage. But many large corporations pay that “entry level wage” for 1, 2, and 3 or more years. After that it might get raised by 50 cents or so. Not nearly enough to help their workers.

YADA:

It’s hard to start and sustain a business. Lots of startups fail. People risk a great deal to create a business, owners work hard …far more than 40 hours a week. They pour money, sweat and time into it at great risk. I would trust them rather than the government to know what they can pay and develop a growth plan for their business and employees.

A business consists of the owners and the employees (wage earners). Without good workers, the business fails. The greatest generator of wealth is human labor. Workers need to be compensated justly, whether they are highly skilled technically, or interact with customers at the drive thru at McDonalds.

YADA:

No person is forced to accept the offered pay and is always free to negotiate and explain why they are worth more.

Not when the employer knows there are 10 people ready and eager to accept the subsistence wage should one worker refuse it.

 

[ucfengr]

Sorta of what we see in Kansas and West Virginia, especially West Virginia with the high index of drug use. Those are conservative cities

Kansas and West Virginia are states, not cities, and while they both voted heavily for Trump, I don’t think that means they’re conservative. The last 4 governors of West Virginia have all been Democrats, and 2 of the last 3 Kansas governors have been Democrats. I’m not aware of any urban area that can meaningfully be called conservative. Even in deep red Texas, Houston, Dallas, Austin, and San Antonio all voted for Clinton by significant margins.

 

[ucfengr]

I see. So if a business decided that its balance sheet, risk profile, debt structure, analysis of demand reaction to price increases, levels of international competition, skills needs, and seasonal analysis required that its employees be paid $1 an hour, the government ought not have a say?

“Logic” demands that the government stay out and leave these decisions to market forces? The worker has no option but to accept what’s given, even if it is only subsistence crumbs? The worker is only a cog in a vast impersonal machine that runs in the Newtonian universe of market forces?

You’re probably unaware, but this is directly contrary to Catholic teaching. Morality and justice, according to Catholic teaching, reside at the heart of every economic transaction, just as they do in every interaction between human beings. This most definitely includes wages.

Unfortunately, Catholic teaching has gotten lost in a society in which avarice and greed are justified as “market forces” governed by an “invisible hand” – notions which are little more than rationalizations of theft.

If I’m willing to do the work for $1/hour, what business of the government’s is it to tell me I can’t? What business is it of the Church to tell me I can’t?

 

[Expatreprocedit]

Meanwhile, in cities such as Denver, where I live, where the minimum wage remains below $10 an hour, there is a chronic shortage of workers for minimum wage jobs. So there is a problem there too.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Meanwhile, in cities such as Denver, where I live, where the minimum wage remains below $10 an hour, there is a chronic shortage of workers for minimum wage jobs. So there is a problem there too.

The problem is the business owners are too cheap. But that is their problem. They have to live with the consequences.

 

[Luke6_37]

**Busted: Emails Show Seattle Mayor Worked With Berkeley To Preempt Study Criticizing Minimum Wage Law
**

townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2017/07/03/busted-emails-show-seattle-mayor-worked-with-berkeley-to-preempt-study-criticizi-n2348804?

What exactly is this thread about? The OP appears to think it is about a left-wing conspiracy to hide the truth about the negative effects on workers of Seattle’s minimum wage law.

OR

It could be a classic example of propaganda aimed at feeding gullible minds primed to believe rhetoric coming from conservative think-tanks funded by big money doners like the Koch brothers. The narrative THEY want you to believe is that what is really good for the average worker is actually bad for the average worker so they can keep sucking prosperity out of the working class.

So which is it?

After reading various articles that consider the merits of the study itself and don’t bother with the “conspiracy theory” angle (a red flag that propaganda is at work) I find that there are issues with the study that make it less definitive than might appear at first.

Here are some commentaries from a media outlet I find to be generally trustworthy…

Analysis | A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news for liberals wapo.st/2s5hZMv?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.4bc85e9ab434

**Perspective | Seattle’s higher minimum wage is actually working just fine **wapo.st/2sUS4UI?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.adb65b88c8ad

It seems that the study found that workers are being paid more but working less hours. They translate this into a $125 hour decrease in take home pay. What they don’t consider is what people are doing with the time they are being given back and if they are happy with this new arrangement. With more time, people may be getting second jobs, being with their family, helping in their community - all of which are valuable and unmeasured assets that improve a persons quality of life. Also, the study excludes workers from chain establishments like McDonald’s and Starbucks so it is impossible to know what impact raising the minimum wage has on those types of entry level jobs.

My take-away is that the OP is nothing but right-wing partial truths and propaganda and that a lot of folks are so primed to buy into this stuff that they make snap judgments and assumptions without actually considering the details of the story. I am fully aware that the same thing happens all the time on the left when it comes to social issues, so don’t bother telling me about it.
**
Remember… Test everything. Retain what is good. - 1 Thessalonians 5:21**

 

[Robert_Sock]

One way or another, every 40-hour a week worker deserves to earn enough for the basic necessities of living.

I wonder what the $15 an hour minimum wage did in Seattle in terms of lowering government assistance, such as food stamps? This must certainly be considered in properly evaluating the effects of the $15 an hour minimum wage policy.

 

[Luke6_37]

One way or another, every 40-hour a week worker deserves to earn enough for the basic necessities of living.

I wonder what the $15 an hour minimum wage did in Seattle in terms of lowering government assistance, such as food stamps? This must certainly be considered in properly evaluating the effects of the $15 an hour minimum wage policy.

You mean like Walmart workers on welfare. Good point.

 

[7_Sorrows]

This is just too sensible for some of our liberal posters to grasp.

+1

 

[meltzerboy]

I see. So if a business decided that its balance sheet, risk profile, debt structure, analysis of demand reaction to price increases, levels of international competition, skills needs, and seasonal analysis required that its employees be paid $1 an hour, the government ought not have a say?

“Logic” demands that the government stay out and leave these decisions to market forces? The worker has no option but to accept what’s given, even if it is only subsistence crumbs? The worker is only a cog in a vast impersonal machine that runs in the Newtonian universe of market forces?

You’re probably unaware, but this is directly contrary to Catholic teaching. Morality and justice, according to Catholic teaching, reside at the heart of every economic transaction, just as they do in every interaction between human beings. This most definitely includes wages.

Unfortunately, Catholic teaching has gotten lost in a society in which avarice and greed are justified as “market forces” governed by an “invisible hand” – notions which are little more than rationalizations of theft.

Indeed. Ethics in business, including fair wages, is also an integral part of Torah teaching.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

If I’m willing to do the work for $1/hour, what business of the government’s is it to tell me I can’t? What business is it of the Church to tell me I can’t?

Whatever a desperate person is willing to work for you have a moral duty to pay them a fair wage. What part of that don’t you get???

 

[Luke6_37]

Whatever a desperate person is willing to work for you have a moral duty to pay them a fair wage. What part of that don’t you get???

This is just too compassionate for some of our conservative posters to grasp.

 

[gnjsdad]

This is just too compassionate for some of our conservative posters to grasp.

+1

 

[dvdjs]

Whatever a desperate person is willing to work for you have a moral duty to pay them a fair wage. What part of that don’t you get???

Catechism of the catholic church.

2434 A just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice.
221 In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. “Remuneration for work should guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural and spiritual level, taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of the business, and the common good.”
222 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages.

Injustice to the wage earner is among the sins that cry to heaven for vengance.

 

[dvdjs]

This is just too compassionate for some of our conservative posters to grasp.

Sadly. it seems that it is too Catholic for some.

 

[Thom18]

This is just too compassionate for some of our conservative posters to grasp.

Compassion has nothing to do with it. If you raise the minimum wage, the business owner has to take a pay cut, prices will have to be raised, or the employee’s hours are cut. More than likely, it will be some combination of the three. The customer, the employee, and the business owner all suffer for it.

 

[YADA]

Sounds like in order to be competitive, you had to hire and keep skilled labor. Granted.

Yet…

To the contrary, offering $1 DOES work quite well. Not only large multinationals, but up and coming small business entrepreneurs do this. When they “move production overseas”, what they are doing is having their products made in places like China, Vietnam, Honduras, and Bangladesh where workers who manufacture their products might not even get $1 per hour in wages. It is Walmart’s business model . These places don’t have minimum wage laws. Many large scale manufacturers lobby hard against minimum wage laws here. Coincidence? A matter of principle?

Yes, it was absolutely meant to be an entry level wage. But many large corporations pay that “entry level wage” for 1, 2, and 3 or more years. After that it might get raised by 50 cents or so. Not nearly enough to help their workers.

A business consists of the owners and the employees (wage earners). Without good workers, the business fails. The greatest generator of wealth is human labor. Workers need to be compensated justly, whether they are highly skilled technically, or interact with customers at the drive thru at McDonalds.

Not when the employer knows there are 10 people ready and eager to accept the subsistence wage should one worker refuse it.

And I bet you have never created a job in your life … I have … and I paid my people well and they were glad to work for me … You have no idea what it takes to start a business - most do not start with employees - they start with the owners doing everything and for little or no wage until they can build up capital and earn clients - then they hire employees … Not every business can send its jobs overseas where the cost of living is far less, wages are low and there is less government red tape … so - yes the Microsofts and Nikes can do that … other manufacturing too …

It is small businesses that employ a majority of people -

I know what it takes - I have done it

I know the time, energy, sweat and tears of entrepreneurship - Maybe you should go out and create a job or two - if its so easy - you can tell the whole world just how to do it …

 

[Expatreprocedit]

Compassion has nothing to do with it. If you raise the minimum wage, the business owner has to take a pay cut, prices will have to be raised, or the employee’s hours are cut. More than likely, it will be some combination of the three. The customer, the employee, and the business owner all suffer for it.

If a business cannot afford to pay its employees a fair wage then either the owner needs to cut his compensation, increase his or her efficiency, or some combination of the two.

 

[ucfengr]

Whatever a desperate person is willing to work for you have a moral duty to pay them a fair wage. What part of that don’t you get???

If the work is only worth $1/hour, then $1/hour is fair. And maybe I’m not desperate, maybe I enjoy the work and would do it for free, or maybe I’m retired and I’m just working to get out of the house and earn some beer and cigarette money. Who are you to tell me how much my time is worth? I’m a big boy and can make my own decisions, thank you very much.

This is just too compassionate for some of our conservative posters to grasp.

Compassion is allowing free people to make decisions according to what they determine their best interests to be, not some nosy busybody with affected moral superiority telling people what they have to do.

 

[dvdjs]

If the work is only worth $1/hour, then $1/hour is fair. And maybe I’m not desperate, maybe I enjoy the work and would do it for free, or maybe I’m retired and I’m just working to get out of the house and earn some beer and cigarette money.

From the CCC

te of the business, and the common good."
222 Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages.