$15 Seattle Minimum Wage Not Working Out

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Isn’t that the PC way? Hide the truth, push the agenda…
 
Big surprise. Liberals don’t care about the disaster they create. One only need look at Detroit, Chicago and Baltimore as an example.
 
Tim_D said:
Big surprise. Liberals don’t care about the disaster they create. One only need look at Detroit, Chicago and Baltimore as an example.
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Sorta of what we see in Kansas and West Virginia, especially West Virginia with the high index of drug use. Those are conservative cities
 
Don’t worry, I just read that someone from Vox found out that raising the minimum wage to $150/hour is going to save the economy. :rolleyes:
 
Not the only problem the Seattle mayor has. Seems he may have preyed upon homeless homosexual male teenagers in the 80s. Naturally, progressive Seattleites rushed to defend him.

Now, as to $15/hour, why not $30? $50? Shoot for the stars! Except small employers will then hire only a single helper instead of three. Doesn’t do much for entry level job seekers, huh?

But, in typical progressive fashion, if just feels so right…
 
It never made sense to me (as an adult) for government to treat all businesses the same and tell employers what they should pay their employees.

All businesses are different with different balance sheets, different risk profile, different debt structures, different demand reactions to price increases, different levels of international competition, different needed skills, differences regarding seasonal requirements etc.

For the government to not look specifically at the status of a business but force a uniform wage structure seems like a very unintellectual approach

Such a policy seems to be sold on emotional grounds, trying to appeal to the morality of political correctness rather than logic.
 
abucs said:
It never made sense to me (as an adult) for government to treat all businesses the same and tell employers what they should pay their employees.

All businesses are different with different balance sheets, different risk profile, different debt structures, different demand reactions to price increases, different levels of international competition, different needed skills, differences regarding seasonal requirements etc.

For the government to not look specifically at the status of a business but force a uniform
wage structure seems like a very unintellectual approach

Such a policy seems to be sold on emotional grounds, trying to appeal to the morality of political correctness rather than logic.
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I agree.
 
abucs said:
It never made sense to me (as an adult) for government to treat all businesses the same and tell employers what they should pay their employees.

All businesses are different with different balance sheets, different risk profile, different debt structures, different demand reactions to price increases, different levels of international competition, different needed skills, differences regarding seasonal requirements etc.

For the government to not look specifically at the status of a business but force a uniform wage structure seems like a very unintellectual approach

Such a policy seems to be sold on emotional grounds, trying to appeal to the morality of political correctness rather than logic.
Click to expand...
I see. So if a business decided that its balance sheet, risk profile, debt structure, analysis of demand reaction to price increases, levels of international competition, skills needs, and seasonal analysis required that its employees be paid $1 an hour, the government ought not have a say?

“Logic” demands that the government stay out and leave these decisions to market forces? The worker has no option but to accept what’s given, even if it is only subsistence crumbs? The worker is only a cog in a vast impersonal machine that runs in the Newtonian universe of market forces?

You’re probably unaware, but this is directly contrary to Catholic teaching. Morality and justice, according to Catholic teaching, reside at the heart of every economic transaction, just as they do in every interaction between human beings. This most definitely includes wages.

Unfortunately, Catholic teaching has gotten lost in a society in which avarice and greed are justified as “market forces” governed by an “invisible hand” – notions which are little more than rationalizations of theft.
 
abucs said:
It never made sense to me (as an adult) for government to treat all businesses the same and tell employers what they should pay their employees.
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You do realize, of course, that we are talking only about setting a minimum wage - not telling businesses what they should pay each employee.
 
gnjsdad said:
I see. So if a business decided that its balance sheet, risk profile, debt structure, analysis of demand reaction to price increases, levels of international competition, skills needs, and seasonal analysis required that its employees be paid $1 an hour, the government ought not have a say?

“Logic” demands that the government stay out and leave these decisions to market forces? The worker has no option but to accept what’s given, even if it is only subsistence crumbs? The worker is only a cog in a vast impersonal machine that runs in the Newtonian universe of market forces?

You’re probably unaware, but this is directly contrary to Catholic teaching. Morality and justice, according to Catholic teaching, reside at the heart of every economic transaction, just as they do in every interaction between human beings. This most definitely includes wages.

Unfortunately, Catholic teaching has gotten lost in a society in which avarice and greed are justified as “market forces” governed by an “invisible hand” – notions which are little more than rationalizations of theft.
Click to expand...
👍
 
gnjsdad said:
I see. So if a business decided that its balance sheet, risk profile, debt structure, analysis of demand reaction to price increases, levels of international competition, skills needs, and seasonal analysis required that its employees be paid $1 an hour, the government ought not have a say?

“Logic” demands that the government stay out and leave these decisions to market forces? The worker has no option but to accept what’s given, even if it is only subsistence crumbs? The worker is only a cog in a vast impersonal machine that runs in the Newtonian universe of market forces?

You’re probably unaware, but this is directly contrary to Catholic teaching. Morality and justice, according to Catholic teaching, reside at the heart of every economic transaction, just as they do in every interaction between human beings. This most definitely includes wages.

Unfortunately, Catholic teaching has gotten lost in a society in which avarice and greed are justified as “market forces” governed by an “invisible hand” – notions which are little more than rationalizations of theft.
Click to expand...
Do you own a company? Have you ever created a job and hired a person? I have …every company is different and market forces do work. I never once hired a person at minimum wage. I did have to be competitive. My company competed with very large even multinational firms and with very small firms. It was difficult position …I could not afford the same salary and benefits of those huge multidisciplinary firms but I had to offer more than the very small sole proprietor …

I paid good wages more than twice the minimum for technical staff and several dollars more per hour for clerical and non technical staff. I paid 100% of my employees health insurance before the ACA, offered 6 paid holidays and a weeks paid vacation each year plus a 3% match to their Simple IRA … I had to do all of that to attract and keep high quality employees.

Merely offering $1 just wouldn’t work and won’t work long term to sustain a business. Turnover costs money, High turnover is detrimental and unsustainable in most businesses.

The arbitrary minimum wage is not helpful. They speak of it now days as needing to be a family living wage …but it was not envisioned as such when first adopted …it was supposed to be an entry level wage. The difference between “Entry level” and “Family living” is huge …that our society now has people who are unprepared for parenting but are parents and who have no marketable skills is not solvable by artificially imposing minimum wages on businesses. It doesn’t solve the underlying problem and prevents business growth related to market forces. It’s hard to start and sustain a business. Lots of startups fail. People risk a great deal to create a business, owners work hard …far more than 40 hours a week. They pour money, sweat and time into it at great risk. I would trust them rather than the government to know what they can pay and develop a growth plan for their business and employees. No person is forced to accept the offered pay and is always free to negotiate and explain why they are worth more.
 
abucs said:
It never made sense to me (as an adult) for government to treat all businesses the same and tell employers what they should pay their employees.

All businesses are different with different balance sheets, different risk profile, different debt structures, different demand reactions to price increases, different levels of international competition, different needed skills, differences regarding seasonal requirements etc.

For the government to not look specifically at the status of a business but force a uniform wage structure seems like a very unintellectual approach

Such a policy seems to be sold on emotional grounds, trying to appeal to the morality of political correctness rather than logic.
Click to expand...
This is just too sensible for some of our liberal posters to grasp.
 
YADA said:
Do you own a company? Have you ever created a job and hired a person? I have …every company is different and market forces do work. I never once hired a person at minimum wage. I did have to be competitive. My company competed with very large even multinational firms and with very small firms. It was difficult position …I could not afford the same salary and benefits of those huge multidisciplinary firms but I had to offer more than the very small sole proprietor …

I paid good wages more than twice the minimum for technical staff and several dollars more per hour for clerical and non technical staff. I paid 100% of my employees health insurance before the ACA, offered 6 paid holidays and a weeks paid vacation each year plus a 3% match to their Simple IRA … I had to do all of that to attract and keep high quality employees.

Merely offering $1 just wouldn’t work and won’t work long term to sustain a business. Turnover costs money, High turnover is detrimental and unsustainable in most businesses.

The arbitrary minimum wage is not helpful. They speak of it now days as needing to be a family living wage …but it was not envisioned as such when first adopted …it was supposed to be an entry level wage. The difference between “Entry level” and “Family living” is huge …that our society now has people who are unprepared for parenting but are parents and who have no marketable skills is not solvable by artificially imposing minimum wages on businesses. It doesn’t solve the underlying problem and prevents business growth related to market forces. It’s hard to start and sustain a business. Lots of startups fail. People risk a great deal to create a business, owners work hard …far more than 40 hours a week. They pour money, sweat and time into it at great risk. I would trust them rather than the government to know what they can pay and develop a growth plan for their business and employees. No person is forced to accept the offered pay and is always free to negotiate and explain why they are worth more.
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Times change though, at one time, minimum wage type jobs were staffed by high school kids, retired people, college kids, etc and those who are entry level, but that is not the way it is anymore, now, its people trying to support a household, support their kids, etc. Its people in their 20s, 30s and 40s.
 
mikekle said:
Times change though, at one time, minimum wage type jobs were staffed by high school kids, retired people, college kids, etc and those who are entry level, but that is not the way it is anymore, now, its people trying to support a household, support their kids, etc. Its people in their 20s, 30s and 40s.
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Which is what I said …there are underlying issues that are unrelated to the minimum wage but the minimum wage is what is being manipulated …which has unintended consequences just like the ACA did …

Employers will cut hours so people may make more per hour but work less hours which results in less pay overall …when wages are set appropriately an employer may offer more hours even though it is slow part of the day …they will send people home early and bring others on for the next rush time … A business has to be profitable to stay in business and keep people employed …if it is not no one has a living wage …to inflate those wages artificially creates inflation across the board …then all wages have to increase to have the same purchasing power…artificial control of unconnected aspects or minimally connected aspects of issues will nearly always cause more problems.

Illegal immigration keeps wages depressed …

There are many causes …but as a business owner I can tell you government wage controls is not a real solution.
 
YADA said:
Which is what I said …there are underlying issues that are unrelated to the minimum wage but the minimum wage is what is being manipulated …which has unintended consequences just like the ACA did …

Employers will cut hours so people may make more per hour but work less hours which results in less pay overall …when wages are set appropriately an employer may offer more hours even though it is slow part of the day …they will send people home early and bring others on for the next rush time … A business has to be profitable to stay in business and keep people employed …if it is not no one has a living wage …to inflate those wages artificially creates inflation across the board …then all wages have to increase to have the same purchasing power…artificial control of unconnected aspects or minimally connected aspects of issues will nearly always cause more problems.

Illegal immigration keeps wages depressed …

There are many causes …but as a business owner I can tell you government wage controls is not a real solution.
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Can a business really call itself successful if it must rely on the absolute cheapest labor it can legally get? If all these companies are so bad off due to labor, then their yearly P&L reports should reflect that.

I am a field marketing coordinator for a large gas station/ convenience store chain, our cashier jobs are all minimum wage, if they raise MW in my state (KY), company will just raise prices on in store products to make up the difference, they cannot really cut hours, staffing is a huge problem, only like 30% of applicants qualify to be hired, drug test and felony background test disqualify majority of our applicants.

Personally I do not have a problem paying $1 or so more for a burger at McDonalds if I knew the cashier was making enough to live on.

Also, just because the MW workers may get a raise, I would not feel I then deserve one too, I make enough to support myself.
 
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