1950 "The year of the assumption"

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What qualified you to determine your church was the right church therefore following it’s interpretations… Bet you were a cradle catholic, like most on here.
Since it was the only Christian Church for 1,500 years it wasnt a hard choice to make. Either I accept that the Catholic is the One True Church or i accpet that a suppoedly perfect , loving God allowed his church to exist in grevious error for 1,500 years.

Bet you are a cradle Protestant.
 
Where o where do you see “to be taught by the church”???
It talks about being decieved period! Now whose making their own interpretation?
the words “to be taught by the Church . . .” is, indeed, my own – albeit valid – reading.

1)The Holy Spirit is the spirit sent by Christ “to guide you into all the truth.”
2) The YOU in that sentence is the eleven disciples remaining after the departure of Judas.
3) These are the same 11 on the Mount of the Ascension where Jesus gives the Great Commission to “teach”.
4) The commission to the eleven resides today in the successors of the Apostles: the bishops of the Church.
5) Therefore: To be taught by the Church is to be taught by the Holy Spirit.
 
What qualified you to determine your church was the right church therefore following it’s interpretations… Bet you were a cradle catholic, like most on here.
I think you will find that “most on here” are converts – many from born-again, Bible-believing traditions. Like me.
 
And that is why there is no need for a basis in scripture for your beliefs?

Yes.
myfavoritmartin;2346242:
Isn’t the magisterium a servant to the “word of God”?
yes
That is what I am saying, I can find all kinds of fathers who spoke contrary to this…
And infallibility didn’t even have a unanimous consent.
Oh, I see. Well…why is this a concern to you? I have not encountered you in the threads before, but you really seem to be offended by this. If it does not apply to you, then why concern yourself with it?
Wrong! they didn’t have to remember! whose history are you reading? I’ve early fathers quoting the same canon protestants use today as early as the 2nd century NOT the 4th… Sheesh c’mon! Just cuz they voted on it later doesn’t mean they didn’t have it earlier…
Good for you! This is exactly right. and just because no one ever officially stoodup and said what is believed about Mary prior to 1950 does not mean they didn’t have it earlier.
 
OK, so what about the First John passage you linked to?
Your church skips over interpretting that one!

I could share what the Westminister confessin said about this chapter, but I don’t want an infraction!
 
Your church skips over interpretting that one!

I could share what the Westminister confessin said about this chapter, but I don’t want an infraction!
No: there is a note on that passage:

24Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 13 25 And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life. 26 I write you these things about those who would deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him.

The note on verse 24 says: “Continuity with the apostolic witness as proclaimed in the prologue is the safeguard of right belief.”

The Catholic teaching is that the Holy Spirit acts with full authority through the Apostolic teaching of the Church. The “anointing” we receive as individuals cannot separate us from the teaching of the Church – from the Apostolic witness. If my personal “anointing” differs from the Charism of the Church, guess who trumps? You seem to want to set up a hostility between individual faith and the faith of the Church. There ain’t none.
 
the words “to be taught by the Church . . .” is, indeed, my own – albeit valid – reading.

1)The Holy Spirit is the spirit sent by Christ “to guide you into all the truth.”
  1. The YOU in that sentence is the eleven disciples remaining after the departure of Judas.
  2. These are the same 11 on the Mount of the Ascension where Jesus gives the Great Commission to “teach”.
  3. The commission to the eleven resides today in the successors of the Apostles: the bishops of the Church.
  4. Therefore: To be taught by the Church is to be taught by the Holy Spirit.
This epistle was NOT directed at the eleven…
No one is specifically mentioned as to whom it was directed.
It’s possible this was a general epistle to the Christians throughout Asia Minor
 
Good for you have you studied Papal primacy in the first 200 years or Galileo and the incorrect interpretation of scripture by the magisterium? Check um out GOOD reading!
Well, papal primacy is in the bible, so we’ll check that off. As for Galileo, there you go again, sounding like a secularist, pushing, I presume, the secular re-telling of the Galileo affair. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” seems to be the cry of Protestants who adopt secular distortions and propaganda in their battles against the Catholic Church. Well, just be careful who you choose for your friends - you might be next on their list.
 
Since it was the only Christian Church for 1,500 years it wasnt a hard choice to make. Either I accept that the Catholic is the One True Church or i accpet that a suppoedly perfect , loving God allowed his church to exist in grevious error for 1,500 years.

Bet you are a cradle Protestant.
Or your definition of “church” misses the MARK substantially. I am inclined to the latter.

I am a reasonably NEW Christian.

I was a cradle sacrementalist, like you!
 
Well, papal primacy is in the bible, so we’ll check that off. As for Galileo, there you go again, sounding like a secularist, pushing, I presume, the secular re-telling of the Galileo affair. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” seems to be the cry of Protestants who adopt secular distortions and propaganda in their battles against the Catholic Church. Well, just be careful who you choose for your friends - you might be next on their list.
Peter and his keys are in the bible, the passing of authority over the universal church is NOT.

Galileo was deemed a heretic via a papal bull because he refused to give in to the Magisteriums incorrect interpretation of scripture, (thus being outside the church) where according to the vatican during that era there’s no salvation. Hence a matter of faith!
 
No: there is a note on that passage:

24Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 13
The note on verse 24 says:
“Continuity with the apostolic witness as proclaimed in the prologue is the safeguard of right belief.”

.
Read the prologue, you obviously are confused here.
witness being JOHN
 
Peter and his keys are in the bible, the passing of authority over the universal church is NOT.

Galileo was deemed a heretic via a papal bull because he refused to give in to the Magisteriums incorrect interpretation of scripture, (thus being outside the church) where according to the vatican during that era there’s no salvation. Hence a matter of faith!
Not even close

ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/GALILEO.HTM
 
What gives? still making up doctrines and dogma’s of the infallible sort, 1900 plus years after Christ?
I don’t get it, what’s next?
The assumption of Peter?

No - defining them 😃

As to the rightfulness of doing so, & the objections from:
  • lateness
  • unapostolicity
  • I think they can be deprived of their main force, if one thinks of Tradition as the memory of the Church; IOW, not as something inert, like a row of reference books, but as a living faculty of the Church, considered as Christ mystically present & active among the nations.
IOW, the Spirit-guided Church could - if that way of thinking about the Church is a valid one - be thought of as rummaging through her memory throughout the centuries, asking herself whether such-&-such an idea is part of the Gospel committed to her as her rule of life & her message. Definitions of dogma, would then be like the convictions men reach after long thought; her processes of thought take a bit longer, because the Church is not an individual human being, but a corporate person composed of individual human beings.

Objection: how does one know, in one’s heart & conscience, before God, that doctrine X is really & truly part of God’s truth ? This is where faith comes in. The question arises for the Assumption - & also for the Deity of Christ, His Messiahship, his Ascension, & pretty well everything else people believe as God’s Truth.

How do we know the Bible is true ? The OT, taken as a literary artifact (for it is that at least), is pretty much like a lot of other texts of the same age - proverbs were not known in Israel alone; the Egyptians & Sumerians had theirs too; examples of such likenesses could be multiplied. In fact, of course, the Bible has an unique status as the Word of God. But that is a theological, faith-guided, God-guided judgement - it is not based on the historical, cultural, detail of the OT. Only God can give certainty about what the Bible is; & what a thing is, should not be confused with questions about what it is made of (as C.S. Lewis points out).

As for the Assumption - the historical details of the controversies about it do not tell us anything about its theological or doctrinal status; what is decisive, is that it has been defined. That does not mean it was not true before, but that it was not so clearly discerned to be true before. It cannot be proved, & does not need to be - one either has eyes to see it as true, or not: just as with the Bible, or with the identity of Christ.

But supposing we are deceived ?

Why should that possibility apply to a Papal text in 1950 AD - & not to the texts about the Resurrection ? The Apostles were men, just as Pius XII was. If we look at them without the gift of faith, there is no more reason to treat what they say as of greater significance than we would a text about other religions of their time. and this faith, is no different from what is need for belief in the Assumption. Were the NT writers regarded as uniquely authoritative in their life-times ? St.Paul’s critics did not view him as “Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles, Saint & Martyr” - appreciation of his being all that, required time. He was just another Christian, while he lived. Appreciation of things often requires distance from them - whether from St.Paul; or from the first Coming of Christ, which is the cause of the Assumption

Either God is as active, omnipotent, truthful in 1950 AD as He was in 30 AD - or He is not. In no way does this imply any “continuing revelation”, gutting of the Bible, or the inspiration of Catholic teaching.

As for the objection from lateness - lateness is a matter of perspective. If the Church lasts 100,000 years, a mere 1900 years after its birth is unlikely to seem late. If OTOH the Second Coming occurs in the next week, the objection will seem weightier. When it is to be - God knows 🙂

More needs to be said: there are plenty of other objections - but I hope that helps
 
What isn’t even close???
Your take on Galelio. it had nothing to do with the Megestirums unterperation of scripture and nothing to do with no salvation outside the church. The Church still teaches, correctly, that Salvation comes only through the Church.
 
And that is why there is no need for a basis in scripture for your beliefs?
Isn’t the magisterium a servant to the “word of God”?
Although we have sparred many times publically and privately in the past, the last few posts and threads are more uncharitable than ususual for you, Dean.

What’s wrong?

You are correct; the Magisterium is the servant of the Word of God - that which is oral and that which is written.
That is what I am saying, I can find all kinds of fathers who spoke contrary to this…And infallibility didn’t even have a unanimous consent.
Please feel free to post any quotes you have from ECF’s who spoke of Mary’s death, burial and tomb. I’d focus on those that mention that her bones are still there, if I were you.
 
This epistle was NOT directed at the eleven…
No one is specifically mentioned as to whom it was directed.
It’s possible this was a general epistle to the Christians throughout Asia Minor
I am not saying that John 1 is directed to the eleven. My points are in reference to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, promised to the eleven at the last supper and at the Ascension. Calm down and THINK before you hurt yourself.
 
I should make it clear that I do not know whether the Assumption of Mary is true or not. It may well be true and I can see no problem in believing it even if it is not true.
My problem is not with the Marian dogmas. It is with proclaiming any new dogmas that must be believed with divine faith.
Sy-

Does the Church have real authority to loose and bind or not?
The question I have is what happens to people who lived before the dogma was pronounced as required? Some people may have believed it for a long time but what about the people who didn’t believe it because they didn’t know they had to believe it or actually disbelieved it? Did God suddenly change the rules on the dates the dogmas were proclaimed saying “I didn’t propose this as something it was necessary to believe before, but from now on I say it is”? If He changed the rules does this contradict his unchangeable nature? If they had to believed from the beginning, before they were infallibly proclaimed, did the Church not fail people who didn’t believe them by not proclaiming them until such a late date?
People are responsible for the truth that is available to them and nothing more. Therefore, anyone who lived and died prior to the proclamations of these dogmas would have been allowed to believe these things (since they had been handed down from the earliest days) but they would not have been faulted if they did not.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
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