20 Truths about Mormons

[isaac.madsen]

I also ought to say I’ve never had the luxury of going into inactivity. The only times I have ever missed church were because of illness (such as appendicits at the age of eight during general conference weekend 11 years ago) or family car trips. I remember that my dad gave me a blessing before I went into surgery for the removal of my appendix. I remember that they already had the anesthesia going. When my dad put his hands on my head for the blessing, I was suddenly gone for twelve hours. I remember floating out of my body into total and absolute blackness. There was no feeling and very little thought. Only the passage of 12 hours in infinite blackness. I felt something calling me back, so I followed it. When I came to the next day, my mother was sitting in a chair at the foot of my hospital bed. General conference was playing on the TV and President Hinckley was speaking, but my mind was full of questions I knew then would never sufficiently be answered by him, and they never have.

I wanted to know, what happens to the human soul during sleep or in a coma, and are those experiences related to what happens after death, or can I take the scientific assumption that they are merely the result of an oxygen-depraved mind? Such answers have not been accurate to my experiences or the experiences I’ve heard from friends. All of them came at points one might consider very stressful, so an atheist might make a scientific assumption that they were psychotic episodes and I haven’t entirely ruled that out either, but if I am psychotic, I must then conclude that all religious influence comes from the minds of psychotic individuals. I do not believe that such is the case, though from a scientific perspective it is certainly possible.

 

[isaac.madsen]

You can also tell us something about your family background. Were your parents always active in the Church? Did they always observe the requirements of the Church, such a scripture study, family prayers, paying a full tithe, attending Church regularly, being active in the service of the Church, and so forth?

zerinus

Yes. We have sometimes slacked off in regards to family scripture study and prayer and home evening, but in the past few years we’ve done much better than we did while I was younger because we were always reminding our parents about it. There has never been any problem in tithing or attending church or active in service or accepting callings. My dad is also currently a counselor in the bishopric of our ward. My parents have always attended the temple about once a month - more in cases where they were able to. My father has always been quite straightforward in telling me he believes I’m damning myself because of my inability to believe in the church. He and I have had a difficult time getting along since as long as I can remember - mostly because he was unable to understand my perspective on things, but that’s a long and painful and sometimes violent story.

 

[zerinus]

Thank you Madsen, that was an interesting story. I don’t think you were honest with your bishop when you were interviewed for a temple recommend. Your unhappy relationship with your dad also says a lot. You need to obtain a testimony of the Church before go on your mission, otherwise that is going to be another very unhappy experience for you. As a matter of interest, have you ever read the Book of Mormon all the way through?

zerinus

 

[isaac.madsen]

Thank you Madsen, that was an interesting story. I don’t think you were honest with your bishop when you were interviewed for a temple recommend. Your unhappy relationship with your dad also says a lot. You need to obtain a testimony of the Church before go on your mission, otherwise that is going to be another very unhappy experience for you. As a matter of interest, have you ever read the Book of Mormon all the way through?

zerinus

Yes indeed, but I’ve always seen it as a load of bull - even when I was a kid. The stories were always entertaining an uplifting, but I never took them literally even though I was always told at church “this really happened.” I don’t need to gain a testimony and I doubt I’ll go on a mission. I’ve discussed a lot of these things with my bishop recently and he encouraged me not to go. If the church is indeed true, I’d do more damage than good for it by going. I don’t think you can judge my relationship with my dad because you don’t have the first clue about it. He’s a good man and I have a lot of respect for him and I love him a lot even though he’s only ever encouraged me not to do the things I love: creative writing, enjoying all kinds of music from classical to rap (excepting country of course - I absolutely abhor most country music).

This has never been about my dad though. It’s always been about whether or not the church is true. You can believe what you like about it or me, but you’ve never lived in my shoes even if you’ve had some of the same experiences as me or even the same questions. Don’t assume that just because your answers are different, they’re right for everyone.

 

[why_me]

It seems Isaac that you do have your own story to tell, but it is your story and it is in your autobiography. I always believed that we are in the process of writing a book each day that we live. My book has many chapters some interesting and some not so interesting. But still they are my chapters.

In terms of yourself, your mind seems out of the lds church even though nothing has been proven a fraud. But the mind is a tricky sponge and it contains a lot of liquid to absorb. Eventually you will find your way. The catholic church is not so bad but for literal catholics keeping all the commandments can be a bit daunting. This whole lent thing would drive me crazy. Fortunately, growing up my mom and dad were not literal catholics. We did not celebrate lent, only went to mass on sunday and confession on saturday. That was it.

Many people find their comfort in the lds church and many people find their comfort in the catholic church. I like my local catholic church, it is very cozy inside and the priests are always available for a talk. The nuns are great too. I suppose that I can have the best of both worlds. I can go to mass and take the eucharist or I can go to the lds church and take the sacrament. At times I do both. This is one of the benefits of neither church recognizing the other church’s baptism.

 

[isaac.madsen]

It seems Isaac that you do have your own story to tell, but it is your story and it is in your autobiography. I always believed that we are in the process of writing a book each day that we live. My book has many chapters some interesting and some not so interesting. But still they are my chapters.

In terms of yourself, your mind seems out of the lds church even though nothing has been proven a fraud. But the mind is a tricky sponge and it contains a lot of liquid to absorb. Eventually you will find your way. The catholic church is not so bad but for literal catholics keeping all the commandments can be a bit daunting. This whole lent thing would drive me crazy. Fortunately, growing up my mom and dad were not literal catholics. We did not celebrate lent, only went to mass on sunday and confession on saturday. That was it.

Many people find their comfort in the lds church and many people find their comfort in the catholic church. I like my local catholic church, it is very cozy inside and the priests are always available for a talk. The nuns are great too. I suppose that I can have the best of both worlds. I can go to mass and take the eucharist or I can go to the lds church and take the sacrament. At times I do both. This is one of the benefits of neither church recognizing the other church’s baptism.

That may work for you, but for me it would be living a double life and I can’t do that. I don’t really thing God is worried about me belonging to any particular religious organization of sorts. I belong to Christ’s eternal, universal church. I don’t believe that kind of a kingdom requires baptism or any other sort of “outward sign” to prove something. It’s what’s inside that counts… actions of faith should automatically follow, but I think what shows faith for one person is entirely different for another, which is why some people align with one church. Others align with another. Some of us choose not to align with any at all, and that’s not a bad thing so long as we are still members of a community, doing important things, helping others, living a life in harmony with the spirit of Christ.

 

[why_me]

I belong to Christ’s eternal, universal church. I don’t believe that kind of a kingdom requires baptism or any other sort of “outward sign” to prove something. It’s what’s inside that counts… actions of faith should automatically follow, but I think what shows faith for one person is entirely different for another, which is why some people align with one church. Others align with another. Some of us choose not to align with any at all, and that’s not a bad thing so long as we are still members of a community, doing important things, helping others, living a life in harmony with the spirit of Christ.

You should tell that to Saint Paul. He may disagree with you since he formed church communities that worshipped together.

 

[isaac.madsen]

You should tell that to Saint Paul. He may disagree with you since he formed church communities that worshipped together.

Oh, I never said it was a bad thing. It’s good for people to worship together. I just think the big problem is that the communities started thinking of themselves as something separate from eachother.

 

[zerinus]

Yes indeed, but I’ve always seen it as a load of bull - even when I was a kid. The stories were always entertaining an uplifting, but I never took them literally even though I was always told at church “this really happened.” I don’t need to gain a testimony . . .

That is why you don’t have one. Now you are being honest. Testimony comes to those who seek it earnestly with a sincere desire to know.

. . . and I doubt I’ll go on a mission. I’ve discussed a lot of these things with my bishop recently and he encouraged me not to go.

Very wise. You bishop has given you a correct advice.

If the church is indeed true, I’d do more damage than good for it by going.

I am sure you would. You would do even more damage to yourself.

I don’t think you can judge my relationship with my dad because you don’t have the first clue about it. He’s a good man and I have a lot of respect for him and I love him a lot even though he’s only ever encouraged me not to do the things I love: creative writing, enjoying all kinds of music from classical to rap (excepting country of course - I absolutely abhor most country music).

That is good. I am glad to hear it. Sorry if I misunderstood your relationship with your dad.

This has never been about my dad though. It’s always been about whether or not the church is true. You can believe what you like about it or me, but you’ve never lived in my shoes even if you’ve had some of the same experiences as me or even the same questions. Don’t assume that just because your answers are different, they’re right for everyone.

I am sure you are right. But there are also some fundamental, universal truths that never change regardless of our individual circumstances.

zerinus

 

[isaac.madsen]

That is why you don’t have one. Now you are being honest. Testimony comes to those who seek it earnestly with a sincere desire to know.

Just because I never believed does no mean I never had a sincere desire to.

Very wise. You bishop has given you a correct advice.

I certainly agree.

I am sure you would. You would do even more damage to yourself.

Probably so.

That is good. I am glad to hear it. Sorry if I misunderstood your relationship with your dad.

That’s alright. I’m generally a fairly forgiving sort of fellow.

I am sure you are right. But there are also some fundamental, universal truths that never change regardless of our individual circumstances.

zerinus

Sure - never said that wasn’t the case really. The hard part is figuring out which things are beliefs and which are truths.

 

[Apryl]

Within 5 minutes, I became officially banned from ldschat.com for merely asking questions about the church, quoting material directly from LDS-approved literature. Needless to say, I received no answer to those questions. Neither did I receive any explanation for why I was banned against their policy, which states that users can be banned only “after being warned.” I received no such warning.
.

Just thought I’d share my experience:

I am taking an Apologetics class and we were discussing Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses. I did a search here (Catholic.com) on Mormons and came up with this thread. I went to the ldschat site and went into a chat room.

I asked ‘Why are you called Mormons if your founder is Joseph Smith’. It was pointed out to me that the book is called the Book of Mormon. That doesn’t answer my question. I continued. I repeatedly said ‘I do not intend to offend. I am simply curious. Please let me know if this is an inappropriate question’… words to that effect.

I asked if I would be welcome to return. I was told that I would be.

Day two (today), I went back in. I said that I had asked the question yesterday, but didn’t get the answer as answering my question.

The Founder is Joseph Smith. There was a prophet some 500 years after Jesus Christ named ‘Mormon’. Why is the group called Mormons, rather than Smiths? OR, why don’t you consider Mormon your founder rather than Smith?

I was told ‘I tried to answer, but you just want to argue’

No… I don’t. I think I have a valid question. (I had a couple of private chats going with others that were trying to answer for me, as well. We had it down that I understood that Mormon was a prophet, and that people were called Mormons because of the Book of Mormon. That does not explain why they don’t consider Mormon their founder, or they don’t call the book The Book of Smith’.)

I pointed out that I had said, repeatedly, that my intent was not to offend (if I have, I apologize). I did have a question, that their answers didn’t answer.

I then went on to say ‘you say I just want to argue. I think that’s argumentative, and I’m offended’.

Poof! I was banned. Me???!!!?? Banned from a chat room.

I can’t even get back in to ask WHY I was banned.

I don’t think that my question was negative.

I do think that maybe they saw holes in their argument.

 

[isaac.madsen]

First, I apologize for the delay in my response. Your comments are appreciated. I have merely been away from the site for some time.

Situations like yours and mine truly bother me. Though the site isn’t run by the church, the moderators could have a bit more respect for their users. I always thought religious sites were there to answer questions, not to persecute the questioners. If Joseph Smith, Jr. had dealt with his followers in a similar fashion - well - he wouldn’t have any followers.

Going back to the comment about Saint Paul and my questioning of organized religion - I really continue with my questioning, but I can definitely see the positive influence of religious groups on individuals.

 

[distracted]

the site isn’t run by the church, the moderators could have a bit more respect for their users. I always thought religious sites were there to answer questions, not to persecute the questioners. If Joseph Smith, Jr. had dealt with his followers in a similar fashion - well - he wouldn’t have any followers.

Maybe Mr. smith was a sociopath who knew how to charm people…
I remember this song from the 70s: “Smiling faces show no traces… of the evil that lurks within”… If people didn’t charm their followers, they won’t have them. And J. Smith seemed to want followers at virtually any cost. True, some moderators here seem cold and uncaring… won’t deny that… but oh well. Our job as Christians is to focus on Christ, who accepts and loves everyone unconditionally, not on people… who can’t do that…

my questioning of organized religion - I really continue with my questioning, but I can definitely see the positive influence of religious groups on individuals.

Just wondering where you are at in the religion/spirituality department… Can you give a brief testimony? Or maybe not so brief?
God bless…

 

[zerinus]

Just thought I’d share my experience:

I am taking an Apologetics class and we were discussing Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses. I did a search here (Catholic.com) on Mormons and came up with this thread. I went to the ldschat site and went into a chat room.

I asked ‘Why are you called Mormons if your founder is Joseph Smith’. It was pointed out to me that the book is called the Book of Mormon. That doesn’t answer my question. I continued. I repeatedly said ‘I do not intend to offend. I am simply curious. Please let me know if this is an inappropriate question’… words to that effect.

I asked if I would be welcome to return. I was told that I would be.

Day two (today), I went back in. I said that I had asked the question yesterday, but didn’t get the answer as answering my question.

The Founder is Joseph Smith. There was a prophet some 500 years after Jesus Christ named ‘Mormon’. Why is the group called Mormons, rather than Smiths? OR, why don’t you consider Mormon your founder rather than Smith?

I was told ‘I tried to answer, but you just want to argue’

No… I don’t. I think I have a valid question. (I had a couple of private chats going with others that were trying to answer for me, as well. We had it down that I understood that Mormon was a prophet, and that people were called Mormons because of the Book of Mormon. That does not explain why they don’t consider Mormon their founder, or they don’t call the book The Book of Smith’.)

I pointed out that I had said, repeatedly, that my intent was not to offend (if I have, I apologize). I did have a question, that their answers didn’t answer.

I then went on to say ‘you say I just want to argue. I think that’s argumentative, and I’m offended’.

Poof! I was banned. Me???!!!?? Banned from a chat room.

I can’t even get back in to ask WHY I was banned.

I don’t think that my question was negative.

I do think that maybe they saw holes in their argument.

You have been asking the wrong question of the wrong people. “Mormon” is a nickname given to LDS people by non-LDS members because of their belief in the Book of Mormon.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

First, I apologize for the delay in my response. Your comments are appreciated. I have merely been away from the site for some time.

Situations like yours and mine truly bother me. Though the site isn’t run by the church, the moderators could have a bit more respect for their users. I always thought religious sites were there to answer questions, not to persecute the questioners. If Joseph Smith, Jr. had dealt with his followers in a similar fashion - well - he wouldn’t have any followers.

If you don’t like the site, you just don’t use it. You don’t keep complaining about it.

If you have questions to ask about the Church, you go to the authorized sources to ask it, who are your bishop and stake president. If you don’t like to go to them, and prefer to go to an unauthorized source, you do so at your own risk; but then you don’t complain about it if you don’t like the treatment you receive, or if your expectaitons are not met.

zerinus

 

[twosweetgirls]

Hey Issac~~I haven’t read this entire thread (SweetGirlTwo is up from her nap) but I’ve read enough to see you like this: The Light is coming on in your house, and you are coming Home!

 

[why_me]

Hey Issac~~I haven’t read this entire thread (SweetGirlTwo is up from her nap) but I’ve read enough to see you like this: The Light is coming on in your house, and you are coming Home!

I am not so sure about that. What does coming home mean. I know that the phrase comes from EWTN and the journey home program but…

Many people question their religion, catholics included. I think that it is a natural process. If one goes to South America one would find very crowded penecostal churches filled with former catholics. All have questioned their catholic faith.

Issac may be on a journey but I am not sure if he is coming home or just plain lost like much of humanity, myself included.

 

[twosweetgirls]

I am not so sure about that.

In all charity, you’re not Isaac.

Isaac, you seem to be very articulate in all your posts; I love your inquisitiveness and hope you can find the answers you’re looking for.

 

[isaac.madsen]

Coming home? I laugh everytime I hear that. We’re all “going home” eventually (as far as dying is concerned). I just don’t see what the religious fuss is all about anymore. From what I understand about God and my personal beliefs, it doesn’t matter what religion you belong to as long as you have moral values and you stand up for them. We could get into a huge debate about all of that as has been done hundreds or thousands of times on this site, but I don’t see the point of arguing. It just creates more tension.

I’m not really even worried about getting “THE” answer in this life because I’m sure it’ll all work itself out in the end. I think the main concern Jesus (the Christ?) tried to get across to people is this: be as good as you can, do your best to become better, and try not to kill anybody in the process. I do believe that we continue to grow and mature in the next life. I think very few people are damned to hell, which makes me wary of Catholicism because it seems to damn everyone who isn’t a member by the time they die.

If I was worried about being a part of “the right church” I think I’d run around getting initiated into every religion I possibly could “just to be safe.” I’m not too worried about it though because the God I believe in is a pretty forgiving guy. I don’t think he really damns anybody. Rather, I believe that people damn themselves. I question Jesus as the Christ in a literal sense because I don’t see the point of sacrificing an innocent person because somebody else screwed up. If someone can explain that whole concept, I’d really appreciate it. I can appreciate Jesus otherwise however, and I do believe he is a savior in the sense that he taught a lot of valuable truths.

Another reason I question Christianity is because of its roots in Judaism, which had polygamist practices (a part of Mormonism I simply cannot accept on faith). Perhaps I am weak, but who can say different? I think when I get up there and meet all those dead guys who are working their butts off trying to get me in line, I’ll be spending a lot of time learning the reasons why certain things are the way they are.

In the meantime, my faith is this: I believe in God; I have no clue who He really is, but I think he’s one awesome guy and I’d love to meet him in person someday; and I have no question that life continues beyond death. Personally, I think we all worship the same God. We just call Him by different names. I think every religion has pieces of the truth, and I doubt if any religion or any one person on the planet has got it all right. After all, the man upstairs knows a whole lot of stuff, and I doubt if He could relay it all to this planet in the time that it will exist, concidering the fact that He’s been around for eternity and we can’t even agree on how long earth had been around - but it’s definitely not been here quite as long as He has.

Also, If Jesus is God, that’s awesome. I hope to meet him someday either way.

 

[napoleon9710]

On one mormon aplogetics site, in the FAQ section, a person asked whether early mormons thought joseph was the Holy Ghost incarnate. Well, the apologist said that was the case. It fit into some of the comments about joseph that fellow mormons made to me. Some early mormons thought that he had been the Holy Ghost incarnate for this dispensation. This idea was condemned by one of the presidents but I’m convinced Brigham Young thought it was true. He was crazy in general. Also, alot of mormon historians ( some excommunicated for telling the truth) admit Joseph was involved in magic. We know he was involved in glass looking and folk magic but I believe it goes much deeper. One last thing. We went to carthage jail where smith was shot and killed. We got the weeping tour guide ( crying seems to be a way of life for some mormons) and got to sit in the room where it happened. One problem, he never mentioned the fact that Joseph and Hyrum both had guns and joseph actually shot 3 people! I asked the question to our group leader and he nervously affirmed the truth. Joseph had every right to shoot back but why does it never get shown in the mormon movies or in the tour itself? Any organization that hides its history is not of God, in my opinion.