$34.06 an Hour

[vern_humphrey]

It’s a noble sentiment, but how can that be done? What I saw in Catholic schools was either a sham, or worse, in shambles. You’ve seen some of my posts ( like or it or not) I’m downright far-right conservative compared to most of the priests and nuns I saw teaching school. On another thread here at CAF I read a young woman of 17’s post about a Nun driving girls to the abortion clinic. Horrifying, but it didn’t shock me from what I’ve seen.

The how is easy, it’s the who that’s difficult. We, the Catholic Church, are a formal organization with formal leadership. Our bishops need to lead.

They need to commit to Catholic schools – and to energize the laity. If a Bishop stood up on his hind legs and demanded quality education in Catholic schools, he’d get quality (and orthodoxy, too.) If the Bishops called on us to support those schools, we would.

We Catholics – some of us, anyway – have adopted a strange idea of “social justice.” We seem to think it’s like lying on the couch watching the game on TV and cheering the right team. We don’t have to pick up the ball ourselves and run with it. We don’t see ourselves as being obligated to work or pay for charitable activities – and we give less, per capita, than almost any other religion.

Let the Bishops commit to Catholic schools and explain to us why we need to put more in the collection plate. Let them decree a second collection every month for Catholic schools – and scold us when we don’t give enough.

Then let them show us our money at work.

Seems like nuns, priests and brothers just had a basic “don’t ask don’t tell” policy even when everyone knew they were actively in gay relationships. You’ve heard the stories of sex abuse followed by transfers - yup. seen it. For the most part, the Catholic schools I knew were staffed by laity, most of whom didn’t worry too much about church doctrine. One priest I knew well is in jail…and most people saw it coming. Some of us spoke up, and those at the top ignored us. Another one should be in jail, but he keeps relocating and changing his biography.

Here in the Diocese of Little Rock, we have never had a sex abuse problem involving Catholic priests or religious – but we had a far-seeing bishop who established controls long ago to prevent such abuses.

I’m stopping right here because I fear this could be read by Catholics already doubting their church and taken the wrong way.

I’m quite sure I will be attacked for this post. But sticks and stones . . .

What Catholic education COULD be and SHOULD be is a great thing, it’s just not happening around here.

And yet we have everything we need to make it happen – except energetic leadership.

 

[Adonis33]

Just a couple of data points on unions and their effectiveness.

About five years ago the longshore workers were making $106,000 per year. They use their power for their workers.

In California, there are 6,000 prison guards who make over $100,000 per year. I don’t know what the total number of guards is, but that must be a good percentage of them. They do it by political power. I believe they are the biggest contributers to political campaigns in the state.

• Kathie :bowdown:

Well, I think I see you point. A teachers Union is like any other kind of union. An automobile workers union isn’t as interested in the aruto. industry as they are how the industry treats its workers.

Same thing as teachers unions - they aren’t interested so much in eduaction, as they are how the system treats it’s teachers.

I’m not 100% against teachers union’s, I just don’t like the way they almost alway’s promote the liberal candidates.

I understand why they do though.

 

[Benedictus]

I think you just made a good point here – the public education system isn’t for the benefit of the students, it’s for the benefit of the teachers and administrators.

Do you actually believe that teachers and administrators at public schools don’t care about the students? I know people who are teachers and principals. I assure you that they care about the students.

 

[harinkj]

Well, I think I see you point. A teachers Union is like any other kind of union. An automobile workers union isn’t as interested in the aruto. industry as they are how the industry treats its workers.

Same thing as teachers unions - they aren’t interested so much in eduaction, as they are how the system treats it’s teachers.

I’m not 100% against teachers union’s, I just don’t like the way they almost alway’s promote the liberal candidates.

I understand why they do though.

But if shoddy automobiles are constructed sales will fall off and jobs will go away. So it is not to the workers advantage to just go for big bucks. By the way. Another very powerful union is the American Medical Association.

If we need more teachers, we need to pay more. Just imagine how fast the illegal immigrant farm labor problem would disappear if they were making $50,000 to $60,000 per year. Americans would be elbowing them out of the way for the jobs. Those dock workers have very difficult and dangerous work. Also, their west coast union was headed up by Harry Bridges decades ago. As the president of the union he would only take the pay equal to his workers and he lived in a typical tract house. Sadly, some unions have had crooks at the top instead.

Back to teachers’ pay. In many places it is set by a local board. Does this contribute to a low level? Should we organize a teacher’s day. For example have the teacher come in at 8:00 AM and leave at 5:00 PM with an hour off for lunch. All class preparation and homework correcting would have a time slot within the teacher’s day, not after work hours. No outside classes to take but have organized classes to take during the so-called vacations. Sort of what a worker would have at a plant. For example engineers at NASA have safety instruction during the normal workday, not after.

• Kathie :bowdown:

 

[teachccd]

I’m confused. Having briefly read through most of the posts am I to conclude that if a teacher is making $68,120 ( $34.06 times 2000 hours) he/she is overpaid? I know that this forum is nationwide but I’m relating from a perspective of the cost of living in Southern California. The average run down 1000 sq. ft. house runs around $450,000. With no down payment a person would be looking (with creative financing) at a monthly mortgage of about $3200. Gasoline averages at around $2.60 a gallon. We won’t mention groceries and other life essentials.

A teacher is the foundation for our future generations and they’re making wages that aren’t fit for the unskilled. First off, I’ve yet to see an average teacher making $68,120 a year. I find your figures in err according to my resources who are actual teachers where I live.

Anyone who is trying to survive in Southern California with a mortgage, car payment, insurance and all the basic necessities must make in excess of $ 100,000 to live without tremendous debt. This is a fact that many may disagree with. And those of you who will disagree with me I can say one thing. Yes, a person could be homeless drive a jalopy with no insurance and rummage through trash bins for food but I hardly find that fitting for someone who is guiding your children to their rewarding careers.

 

[system]

We Catholics – some of us, anyway – have adopted a strange idea of “social justice.”

Yes - this strange idea runs through the four gospels. Apparently, it came right from Christ himself!

Things about how you treat the least of these…constant talk about the poor, sick, needy, the little ones etc.

We seem to think it’s like lying on the couch watching the game on TV and cheering the right team.

Wow - my gospels say nothing about this.

 

[harinkj]

Anyone who is trying to survive in Southern California with a mortgage, car payment, insurance and all the basic necessities must make in excess of $ 100,000 to live without tremendous debt. This is a fact that many may disagree with. And those of you who will disagree with me I can say one thing. Yes, a person could be homeless drive a jalopy with no insurance and rummage through trash bins for food but I hardly find that fitting for someone who is guiding your children to their rewarding careers.

About ten years ago I remember hearing a radio program on homelessness. They talked about a particular bus route on the San Framcisco peninsula. It ran during the overnight hours and had a length of 2 1/2 hours. Homeless people would board because it would give them a place that was warm and they could ride back and forth on one pass for the entire night time. I also remember one was in fact a school teacher. How sad.

• Kathie :bowdown:

 

[jmcrae]

No they would not flock to private schools. Teachers in private schools make considerably less a year less than at public schools.

Besides - private schools do not offer special education services.

It depends on the private school. I used to work for a private school that actually specialized in teaching the learning disabled. It was a very interesting experience, for me - certainly, I’m a much better teacher today for having had that experience.

 

[mary_bobo]

Cherry picking!! If a student acts up in a private school the private school has the right to eliminate the student. They can pick the cream of the crop. Or just eliminate the bad apples. By law you cannot do that in a public school. Blame the public. Look in a mirror. There is the problem. It is all of us who vote or don’t vote. The public schools are ours. Don’t blame the teacher.

I don’t think I said that. Don’t be so defensive. I said that I admire the teachers, I said they should be paid better and that incentives for better teachers is in order. Private schools may pick the cream of the crop and that turns out to be mannerly kids whose parents have taught them right from wrong. I’m not sure what voting has to do with poor schools.

When my mother taught the third grade, there was a training facility in the town for a Japanese corporation. The staff of the training operation brought their families to the United States. Each mother would come in and volunteer several days a week to help the teacher with their child. No American mother ever did that!

I certainly did. Don’t lump us all into your basket.

You’re right unions are bad. If we didn’t have unions we wouldn’t have to teach kids. They’d all be working in sweat shops. Excuse me but unions have done a lot of good. They should not be condemned en mass. Both union leaders and corporate CEO have gone to prison for misdeeds. Why not condemn private enterprise?

Oh, please. Don’t be so dramatic. There are child labor laws that prevent this. There are many unions that protect the poor workers and hire them over the more accomplished ones. I’m not sure who goes to prison has any relavance to what I said. And is it not the NEA that keeps better teachers from being paid an incentive to do better? Not all teachers are accomplished and some should not be teaching at all. In the business world, poor workers, those who cause trouble, those who do not fit the jobs they are in can be fired. But the union sure steps in when a school tries to get rid of one.
The NEA is a left-wing organization with well paid officers who want to dumb down education so that everyone will be the same. God made each of us different and why should a child who is bright, or one who is willing to work hard, have to put up with goes on in the classroom and have the curriculum made easier so that “everyone” can learn.

• Kathie :bowdown:

 

[vern_humphrey]

**Vern you took an important question about the validity of this opinion from post 23: **

And made it into a crusade about teacher’s unions

**Isn’t this what they call a strawman? You’ve hijacked the thread from any discourse on the original article which is weak at best.

and here’s the best part: .**

**You’ve started your own little thread within a thread!
How about staying on the topic?

I invite all defenders of the author of this article to defend him (them) or to start a new thread about teachers unions.
**

I was not the one who introduced unions into this thread, and for you to pretend that I was is disingenuous.

If the moderator feels I have strayed too far from the thread, he will notify me.

 

[mary_bobo]

It depends on the private school. I used to work for a private school that actually specialized in teaching the learning disabled. It was a very interesting experience, for me - certainly, I’m a much better teacher today for having had that experience.

Bless you. I could write a book about what I, and my son, went thru to get an education for him. His IQ is higher than his sister who were A students. The teachers had no idea how to teach kids like him and he was pushed aside and forgotten. One teacher even told me she thought he was retarded and that I should take him out of school. Finally we spent the equivalent of a college education to find schools that were primarily for LD kids. They were wonderful.

I did my part. I started a Parents Club and with lots of help, we put on a golf tournament that raised enough money to buy land for a school.

I know that your experience with LD kids will be of great benefit to the children you may encounter with this problem. The person who recommended private schools for my son was a teacher with two LD kids of her own. She was terrific.

 

[vern_humphrey]

It depends on the private school. I used to work for a private school that actually specialized in teaching the learning disabled. It was a very interesting experience, for me - certainly, I’m a much better teacher today for having had that experience.

That is why when I propose free choice in schools, I set the standard tuition at 90% of the per-pupil share. The additional 10% is set aside for special needs – that is cases where no one is willing to establish a school or provide certain specialized services.

 

[rlg94086]

I’m not surprised. I think the political slant of teachers generally leans the same way as the local population. I’ve lived in a few different areas, and that has been my experience.

Funny.

As an aside - not neccesarily related to the OP, teacher’s are usually pretty liberal. However - at my HS (especially in the Sec Ed Dept) we have a really high number of retired military in the faculty. You would be suprised at how conservative our faculty is.

I don’t wat to start another debate - I just wanted to relate a personal observation. I am not making a value judgement.

 

[jmcrae]

Oh, please. Don’t be so dramatic. There are child labor laws that prevent this.

Where do you think child labour laws, or any labour laws of any kind, came from in the first place? Child education and the five day, eight hour work week were never private industry’s idea.

 

[rlg94086]

Well, a couple of comments - $34.06 x 2000 hours would assume the teachers are being paid based on a 40-hour week, year-round. As has been pointed out, the $34.06/hr is probably figured in the reverse based on in-class hours. Someone else posted the average in 2002-2003 at about $46.5k. Vern then put it into perspective, comparing it to other pay during the same time period - forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1877724&postcount=12

Also, the number is a national average. I don’t know the stats, but I’m sure a teacher in Mississippi is probably paid much less than a teahcer in Southern California, so the average is not necessarily going to be indicative of a teacher in your home town. Also, the range of pay from a starting teacher to a tenured teacher is going to skew the numbers.

Finally, you are right, $68k isn’t a lot in Southern California. Do you realize that some engineers in California don’t make that much either? I just escaped…er…moved…from the Bay Area and I know what the engineers at my previous employers made. A couple of them were in the $60k range. They, nor I, could afford to buy a home in the Bay Area. There are people who prefer to live in California and scoffed at me moving to the rainy Northwest - they get what they pay for.

I’m confused. Having briefly read through most of the posts am I to conclude that if a teacher is making $68,120 ( $34.06 times 2000 hours) he/she is overpaid? I know that this forum is nationwide but I’m relating from a perspective of the cost of living in Southern California. The average run down 1000 sq. ft. house runs around $450,000. With no down payment a person would be looking (with creative financing) at a monthly mortgage of about $3200. Gasoline averages at around $2.60 a gallon. We won’t mention groceries and other life essentials.

A teacher is the foundation for our future generations and they’re making wages that aren’t fit for the unskilled. First off, I’ve yet to see an average teacher making $68,120 a year. I find your figures in err according to my resources who are actual teachers where I live.

Anyone who is trying to survive in Southern California with a mortgage, car payment, insurance and all the basic necessities must make in excess of $ 100,000 to live without tremendous debt. This is a fact that many may disagree with. And those of you who will disagree with me I can say one thing. Yes, a person could be homeless drive a jalopy with no insurance and rummage through trash bins for food but I hardly find that fitting for someone who is guiding your children to their rewarding careers.

 

[harinkj]

Oh, please. Don’t be so dramatic. There are child labor laws that prevent this.

Unions fought for these laws. Study history.

• Kathie :bowdown:

 

[rlg94086]

Unions fought for these laws. Study history.

• Kathie :bowdown:

I’m not particularly anti- or pro-Union, but I have to ask: If the Teacher’s Unions are so fantastic, why is everyone complaining about how low teachers are paid, while bragging about how much longshoremen are paid thanks to their Unions? Apparently, the Teacher’s Unions are really lousy at their primary task.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Do you actually believe that teachers and administrators at public schools don’t care about the students? I know people who are teachers and principals. I assure you that they care about the students.

I’m sure there are administrators and teachers that care about the students. But the unions don’t – by definition, unions serve the union members. (Although Michaels would say they really serve the union officials and employees.)

 

[teachccd]

Finally, you are right, $68k isn’t a lot in Southern California. Do you realize that some engineers in California don’t make that much either? I just escaped…er…moved…from the Bay Area and I know what the engineers at my previous employers made. A couple of them were in the $60k range. They, nor I, could afford to buy a home in the Bay Area. There are people who prefer to live in California and scoffed at me moving to the rainy Northwest - they get what they pay for.

As we all do. But the bottom line is that if an engineer only makes $60,000 then the issue is with an underpaid engineer not overpaid teachers. The standard of living dictates the value of one’s wage not comparative analysis. Maybe the reason that engineers are only making $60,000 is because their teachers only made $30,000. You do get what you pay for.

 

[system]

I was not the one who introduced unions into this thread, and for you to pretend that I was is disingenuous.

I see…just grab onto the ideas that appeal to you, or your pet peeves, and then start a questionaire?

And you call me disengenuous?

I brought up the agenda of the author of the article - no one yet has dealt with that.

If the moderator feels I have strayed too far from the thread, he will notify me.

Until then - none of us are reposnsible for our own words and actions?