$34.06 an Hour

[rlg94086]

As we all do. But the bottom line is that if an engineer only makes $60,000 then the issue is with an underpaid engineer not overpaid teachers. The standard of living dictates the value of one’s wage not comparative analysis. Maybe the reason that engineers are only making $60,000 is because their teachers only made $30,000. You do get what you pay for.

I didn’t say teachers are overpaid, and the standard of living in the Bay Area is generally higher than Southern California (depending on which two neighborhoods you are comparing, of course). I don’t know what the pay is for teachers in either location.

Apparently though, in the way you treated my engineer example, you believe that a good teacher should be paid more than an underperforming teacher. I agree, but that is not how it works.

 

[a_priori]

As we all do. But the bottom line is that if an engineer only makes $60,000 then the issue is with an underpaid engineer not overpaid teachers. The standard of living dictates the value of one’s wage not comparative analysis. Maybe the reason that engineers are only making $60,000 is because their teachers only made $30,000. You do get what you pay for.

The labor market operates according to laws every bit as immutable as the laws of physics (which actually are mutable but that’s besides the point).

Engineers, teachers, professional athletes, cancer researchers and candlestick makers make what they make because the impersonal forces of economic systems have decided it should be so.

 

[rlg94086]

Here’s some California data from 2002:
edsource.org/pdf/TeachersCompFinal.pdf

Across the state…
Starting salaries ranged from a low of $20,227 to a high of $49,720. Over 15% of the districts paid less than $30,000, while only 16 districts offered new teachers more than $40,000. Five of those districts were in Alameda County, so their salary figures include benefits.

Salaries for the most experienced and educated teachers ranged from a low of $32,000 to a high of $86,572. Only five districts paid their most experienced teachers less than $40,000, and these were very small districts, the largest of which enrolled only 61 students. The small Santa Clara County district paying $86,572 was one of only eight districts in the state offering $80,000 or more.

By geographic region…

Districts in Los Angeles County offered the highest salaries on average for new and veteran teachers - $35,305 and $71,082, respectively.

Districts in the northernmost counties of California offered the lowest salaries on average for new and veteran teachers—$31,033 and $53,344, respectively.

Districts in the San Francisco Bay Area offered $34,580 on average to new teachers, with starting salaries ranging from $24,263 to $45,709. The most experienced teachers in this region earned an average of $66,108, with top salaries ranging from $44,252 to $86,572.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I see…just grab onto the ideas that appeal to you, or your pet peeves, and then start a questionaire?

And you call me disengenuous?

I brought up the agenda of the author of the article - no one yet has dealt with that.

I see. You just grab onto the ideas that appeal to you, or your pet peeves, and then start a questionaire? I call that ad hominem and disengenuous.

Until then - none of us are reposnsible for our own words and actions?

I’ll make a deal with you – you be responsible for your actions, I’ll be responsible for mine, and we’ll let the moderator do the moderating.

 

[rlg94086]

EdSource (the provider of the data in my last post) also seems to agree with calculating by days worked:

Adjusting for holidays and vacations, then, nurses work 233.8 days per year for an average annual salary of $56,140.They earn $240 *per **workday *($56,140 divided by 233.8 days) while middle school teachers earn $256 *per workday *($47,350 divided by 185 days). When salaries are calculated by workdays, middle school teachers in California earn on average more than registered nurses.

Certainly these averages mask many individual variations in work schedule and pay rate. But comparing teachers’ annual salaries with those in other professions may not be appropriate without some accommodation for the differences in days worked per year.

So, apparently, nurses are more underpaid and/or overworked.

 

[teachccd]

The labor market operates according to laws every bit as immutable as the laws of physics (which actually are mutable but that’s besides the point).

Engineers, teachers, professional athletes, cancer researchers and candlestick makers make what they make because the impersonal forces of economic systems have decided it should be so.

It’s a shame that these “impersonal forces” don’t value the educational formation of future generations. And like blaming errors on computers, “economic systems” were derived from people. And people became impersonal, not systems.

 

[Adonis33]

The labor market operates according to laws every bit as immutable as the laws of physics (which actually are mutable but that’s besides the point).

Engineers, teachers, professional athletes, cancer researchers and candlestick makers make what they make because the impersonal forces of economic systems have decided it should be so.

Good point. I once got into an arguement with another teacher about this. I here it all the time: “In a perfect world - teachers would be paid more than athletes”. I cringe every time I hear it.

I argued that athletes were not overpaid - that the market decides what the salaries will be. You are worth what somebody is willing to pay you. If an owner of a baseball team thinks you are worth $25 million a season - and he is willing to pay as such - then you are worth $25 million a season. I would tell this teacher that if she felt so passionately about the issue - that she should stop going to games and watchin them on TV.

As I have posted before - if teachers do not like what they are getting paid - they should find another job.

 

[jmcrae]

So, apparently, nurses are more underpaid and/or overworked.

Put it this way - I wouldn’t be a nurse for all the tea in China. I’d rather be a telephone solicitor than a nurse - better pay, better hours, and not nearly as much verbal/physical abuse.

(Thank God I’m neither.)

 

[teachccd]

As I have posted before - if teachers do not like what they are getting paid - they should find another job.

Most teachers teach because they have a passion for what they do. Thanks for your compassion for theirs…

 

[Adonis33]

Most teachers teach because they have a passion for what they do. Thanks for your compassion for theirs…

Apparently you have not read all my posts. I have been a Spec Ed teacher for about 8 years.

Teaching is a chosen profession - we know the payscale before we go in. The only teachers I see complaining in the teachers lounge are the ones that hate their jobs.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Most teachers teach because they have a passion for what they do. Thanks for your compassion for theirs…

Just out of curiosity, if he had said that about brick masons or used car salesmen, would you have chided him for his lack of compassion?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Apparently you have not read all my posts. I have been a Spec Ed teacher for about 8 years.

Teaching is a chosen profession - we know the payscale before we go in. The only teachers I see complaining in the teachers lounge are the ones that hate their jobs.

And if you ask them why they don’t get a different job?

(Don’t answer that – someone will accuse you of being “uncharitable.”)

 

[teachccd]

Apparently you have not read all my posts. I have been a Spec Ed teacher for about 8 years.

Teaching is a chosen profession - we know the payscale before we go in. The only teachers I see complaining in the teachers lounge are the ones that hate their jobs.

That is true. I just have great respect for teachers and get over zealous in my defense for their compensation. I didn’t mean to step on your toes or claim to know what a teacher experiences day to day but I do know some very good teachers. And you are right, the ones who love their job never even mention their pay. That is true devotion but not to be ignored in such a manner as to take advantage of these good people. They may not generate the millions that athletes do but then again can we place monetary value on our children?

 

[teachccd]

Just out of curiosity, if he had said that about brick masons or used car salesmen, would you have chided him for his lack of compassion?

Only if you can compare a brick or a car to our children.

 

[system]

I see. You just grab onto the ideas that appeal to you, or your pet peeves, and then start a questionaire?

No, I grabbed on to the foundation of the debate. You started the questionaire to pursue your anti-union bias.

I call that ad hominem and disengenuous.

and you would be wrong.

I’ll make a deal with you – you be responsible for your actions, I’ll be responsible for mine, and we’ll let the moderator do the moderating.

Why would I make a deal? Would you suddenly get back on topic and defend the intentions of the author?

 

[a_priori]

Apparently you have not read all my posts. I have been a Spec Ed teacher for about 8 years.

You have one of the toughest jobs there is. My sister-in-law and a niece are both Special Ed teachers and my wife works in Special ed in a middle school. I get a daily blow-by-blow anecdotal briefing about life in that world. My wife doesn’t have to work but she insists on being there to love them and make a difference. They have the “tough cases” there.

Teachers are critical to the strength of any nation. But it is hard to get many to understand that their compensation is not a function of a decision made by someone to devalue them. Supply and demand works the same in labor markets, capitol markets or any other kind of market. There are no bad guys to point at.

 

[Adonis33]

You have one of the toughest jobs there is. My sister-in-law and a niece are both Special Ed teachers and my wife works in Special ed in a middle school. I get a daily blow-by-blow anecdotal briefing about life in that world. My wife doesn’t have to work but she insists on being there to love them and make a difference. They have the “tough cases” there.

Teachers are critical to the strength of any nation. But it is hard to get many to understand that their compensation is not a function of a decision made by someone to devalue them. Supply and demand works the same in labor markets, capitol markets or any other kind of market. There are no bad guys to point at.

The SpecEd teachers, particularly in my district, on top of our students in the classroom, have to monitor 20-30 other students that are usually not in our classes. I spend apx. 25% of my time in ARD’s (our case-load). The paperwork is extremely frustrating. What adds to the department’s stress is the rules that keep changing, seemingly every six months.

I agree with you about the compensation.

 

[mary_bobo]

Where do you think child labour laws, or any labour laws of any kind, came from in the first place? Child education and the five day, eight hour work week were never private industry’s idea.

So? Like anything else, the unions did some good things early on. But they are falling in membership each year. Wonder why that is?

 

[Thekla]

I invite the defenders of the teacher’s unions to tell us what the unions have done to:

1. Make it easier to identify and fire non-productive teachers and administrators…
2. Improve the quality of textbooks.
3. Improve discipline in schools
4. Hold schools, administrators and teachers accountable.

I accept your challenge.

As a union officer, I can tell you what teacher’s unions in my state can and cannot do. First of all, you must understand that the contract is a negotiated agreement between the School Board and the union. The School Board members are the elected representatives of the community at large and they have the ultimate authority over the hiring and firing of all staff and the ultimate authority for implementing and deciding school discipline. They vote to adopt all texts used within the district.

As for the union, it is the elected body representing the teachers in terms of working conditions and negotiates for salaries and benefits. The union has no authority to hire or fire any teacher, much less an adminstrator. We have to negotiate to have a union representative (a teacher) on things like textbook adoption committees. Our teachers are on all district-wide committees; not as representatives of the union, but as representatives of their schools and subject areas. There is no mechanism for a union to hold a school accountable; that’s a function of the School Board and the state. We expect our teachers to abide by the contract and when they do not, there is very little we can do for them.

In my state, any teacher in their first 4 years with a district can be fired without cause and there is nothing the union can do about it. A teacher who has taught beyond 4 years can be fired, but then the administration must follow a procedure. It’s easy to identify a non-productive teacher. Just ask any teacher in the building. But only the administrators can do anything about it. We just get to complain. Our teachers would love for the union to be able to fire non-productive adminstrators. We can bring the teachers’ concerns to the superintendent and Board members, but they have the control.

What is an example of a working condition you ask? Well let’s say that you are a middle school teacher and a student pushes you. We recently negotiated that in this instance, an administrator had to report the incident to the superintendent who has to report it to the police. Why did we negotiate this? We did it because administrators were hiding incidents from their superior (the superintendent). We tell our teachers that they should also file a police report but they don’t always want to do it. Especially the new teachers who can be fired without cause.

So in conclusion, what have we learned? The union mainly represents the working conditions (start time, end time, professional days, evaluation process, etc.) under which the teachers are employed and the School Board has the authority over all the things you have listed.

 

[rlg94086]

As for the union, it is the elected body representing the teachers in terms of working conditions and negotiates for salaries and benefits.

Thanks for the edumucation. As I said in an earlier post, I am not particularly pro- or anti-union. In fact, I have never been part of a union - close, when I worked for hotels, but no cigar.

Now, I hear a lot of good things about unions, but I would like to understand why Teacher’s Unions are so lousy at job #1, negotiating salaries and benefits. At least, I assume they are lousy at it, because all I ever hear is complaints about teacher pay.