A Book of Mormon tour

[Strevel]

To resign from the Mormon Church follow the directions at this web site:

mormonnomore.com/

Great Post Brother!!
Don in Vegas

 

[why_me]

Both of us know that it is more complicated than that.

In order to marry “handsome missionary that she fell for”, she has to become Mormon, and since marriage in the Mormon temple is really encouraged and no one without a temple recommend may enter one, that means that the convert (even though she or he converted just for the handsome guy or pretty girl must pass a “worthiness interview” given by the “part-time, no training and no salaried” bishop. From conversion to temple endowment (being allowed to enter the temple) takes about one year of 10% tithing, fast offerings, Mormon ward attendance, and various other things that the Mormon bishop asks for. IOW by that time the convert has made quite an investment in the Mormon church–so much so that it’s quite embarrassing to admit to being “snookered”. (In my daughter’s case the Mormon bishop even had her teach little innocent children that Jesus Our Lord and God was just a man and just “a” god so she had a "vested interest in remaining Mormon.)

Then of course, there’s the knowledge that if she/he doesn’t stay Mormon (okay living a lie takes a toll, but there’s anti-depressants for that ) the convert loses the one she/he “fell” for (as well as all her/his new Mormon family and friends). And of course, once married, the wife is expected to turn out as many children as possible (for the "spirit children to have bodies.) Well, maybe a guy can “walk away”, but how many mothers would leave their beloved children? No, damage is really, really done. And so leaving becomes almost impossible.

It is not really that complicated. If she has no witness that the book of mormon is true, she should tell her returned missionary. Without that witness she will never last that long in the lds faith because to be an active member does take time and energy.

The money ‘invested’ is never a factor in staying in the lds church since every month takes another 10%. But it does seem to me that your daughter is an active lds member and if she is happy being so, it is best to support her in her decision. She will not be expected to turn out as many children as she can. These days, many lds women practice birth control. But as a catholic, she may be expected to turn out as many children as possible since birth control is discouraged.

And so, if she is not married and has no testimony of the lds church being true, it is best to have her tell her guy. Or maybe you will need tell her the pitfalls of joining the lds faith without a testimony.

However pretending to have a testimony if that is what she is doing will lead to problems in the future IMO.

 

[BartBurk]

It is not really that complicated. If she has no witness that the book of mormon is true, she should tell her returned missionary. Without that witness she will never last that long in the lds faith because to be an active member does take time and energy.

The money ‘invested’ is never a factor in staying in the lds church since every month takes another 10%. But it does seem to me that your daughter is an active lds member and if she is happy being so, it is best to support her in her decision. She will not be expected to turn out as many children as she can. These days, many lds women practice birth control. But as a catholic, she may be expected to turn out as many children as possible since birth control is discouraged.

And so, if she is not married and has no testimony of the lds church being true, it is best to have her tell her guy. Or maybe you will need tell her the pitfalls of joining the lds faith without a testimony.

However pretending to have a testimony if that is what she is doing will lead to problems in the future IMO.

Artificial birth control is banned. Catholics are allowed to use natural family planning as a method of natural birth control. No Catholic is expected to “turn out as many children as possible.” LDS women are expected to have as many children as they can in order to grow the faith. Birth control is discouraged if not banned by the LDS.

 

[Strevel]

Artificial birth control is banned. Catholics are allowed to use natural family planning as a method of natural birth control. No Catholic is expected to “turn out as many children as possible.” LDS women are expected to have as many children as they can in order to grow the faith. Birth control is discouraged if not banned by the LDS.

When I was LDS people would use horrid social social presure against ladies that used birth control. It used to be that you were not able to get a temple recommend if you used contraceptives. Strong conformist social pressure, even to the point of not talking with you or not looking at you is used. Very Jim Jones style.
Guys, I have been through the entire LDS Church, Two Years Missionary gig, Temple and I shar that they are not Christian. The entity that they believe in is not Christ. He has a physical body, practices polygamy with his unlimited number of wives, … All part of the privately taught and not shared with the general public. When I was a Missionary we were specifically told to never discuss certain issues lile eternal progression, Christs wives, Gods wives… They believe it in private and will never discuss it in public! Who cares about the Mormons and their wierd off balanced beliefs.

If you drive a Ford why in the world would you care about studyinh a…Chrysler?? If you are Catholic learn about and strive to live your Catholic faith.

They are not just a faith you can stand beside! Oh, those loverly piranas… Take care and learn more about our faith, the Saints, your Parish, our cornerstone which is the real Christ. One person that had the personal fortitude to communicate the true love of Christ and her Catholic faith while I was on my mission saved me. Learn more of your faith, the traditions and history of the Latin Mas (whether you attend in Latin, English, French… Learn about the Catholic faith. If you fully understand (you never will) anothes faith and are amiss in your own, how have you profited. Love and live our Caholic faith!

Just my views…spiced with my years as an active Mormon.

Pax Vobiscum,
Don in Vegas

 

[Jerusha]

Mormonism is an imitation of Catholicism. Thus, while we have a commonality about birth control, the why’s and therefore’s are different. Mormonism is only superficially like Catholicism, just like it is superficially like many other cultures and ideologies. Birth control to Mormons, is more like-- the more children raised in Mormonism, the more “good” Mormons there are, knowing no other culture. Especially when they are raised within a predominantly Mormon culture.

Catholicism and birth control is totally different. The more Catholics that don’t practice birth control, the more “excess” children there are who are willing to devote their lives in celibate service to the church and society at large, not being distracted by the responsibilities for spouse and children.

Totally different rationales.

As for Why Me, after having been on this board for years, the only way he can think himself to be both Mormon and Catholic is if he believes that the Book of Mormon is loosely based on the Viking invasion of Eastern Canada and Northeastern US 980 AD to 1421 AD.

That interpretation is at odds with Mormonism unless you are a MormoNazi. So, WhyMe, what are you. really?

 

[why_me]

.

As for Why Me, after having been on this board for years, the only way he can think himself to be both Mormon and Catholic is if he believes that the Book of Mormon is loosely based on the Viking invasion of Eastern Canada and Northeastern US 980 AD to 1421 AD.

That interpretation is at odds with Mormonism unless you are a MormoNazi. So, WhyMe, what are you. really?

Just a person who defends the faith of my daughters.

 

[Asa_Ben_Judah]

Hearing others share that they “know” (who does) is nothing more than running it through your mind the same way Jim Jones brought people together for loyalty tests.

Don

I joined the LDS church nearly 30 years ago and I did not realise then the challenge and psychological pain I would face sustaining a front that would get me through the Temple Recommend Interview, which is really what I think you mean by the “loyalty test”.

I pray that God will forgive me for not having the courage to leave and become a member of the Holy Catholic Church, but I doubt it…

Asa B. J.

 

[BartBurk]

Just a person who defends the faith of my daughters.

Would your family implode if you defended the faith of your fathers? I ask that seriously because I struggle with living with a Mormon family as well. And frankly the most difficult part is defending the Catholic Church in spite of the behavior of the Catholics my children know.

Unfortunately, the good behavior of Mormons doesn’t do anything to make their religion true. It is sad that a people demonstrating such good moral values are completely deceived by a church founded by a man with almost no moral values.

 

[Strevel]

Just a person who defends the faith of my daughters.

I have read and am familiar with the position you are taking. May I share an experience…not a view, but an experience. There is absolutely no compatability between the two religions. The LDS faith believes that Gos is a man just like you, we believe that God is not a man, but a spirit. The LDS believe that God has many (countless) wives and somehow has the time to go from wife to wife to create billions of baby spirits to inhabit his worlds, much akin to a Queen Bee. Fortunately, we do not. The LDS (Mormons) believe that Jesus Christ is not enough and we need a modern Moses to guide us as we are to stupid to follow the teachings and precepts of Jesus Christ (JC). We do not need that belief because we firmly and strongly believe that Jesus himself guides us and does so through his Bible, traditions and Magistirium. The Cardinals and Bishops wear the color red for a specific reason. it is to remind us of the blood of Christ and that if need be, we will sacrifice our very bodies for Christ.
There are gross and unbridgeable practices and belief differences between the two faiths. We do not accept the LDS baptism as they improperly and incorrectly claim to have a Priesthood, which they do not. The assumed authority does not exist with them. The Mormons feel they have the authority to act in Gods name, they do not. Sort of like a milk man giving you a ticket. What force does that ticket have?? That ticket has no force.
You are in a stasis. Halfway between home and where you are going. You feel loyalties(sp) to the LDS faith and the same to your true Catholic faith. I was there and felt the consternation you feel at this moment. Work through it. Attend Mass regularly for a month. Mentally and spiritually participate in it. I did not take the body of Christ as I was in between points, you do as your conscience dictates.
Look into the writtings of some of the people that knew JS personally. Not the publicity pieces of the “Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints”. You will find the life of Joseph Smith, apart from what the LDS Church pushes, to be very enlightening. This search and looking for information you will be in s a valuable part of your growth.
I went on the Mission (California Oakland Mission) and served honorably. I took my endowments out in Ogden, UT. I attended BYU and was an Elders Quorum Teacher, Ward Clerk as well as run of the mill Elder. I promise you that the Catholic Church is more balanced, does not play mind games. The Catholic Church is the correct and true Church of Jesus Christ. These run of the mill newbie wanna be Churches are not. We have been around longer than cultures and nations saving souls, baptising, burying, marrying and doing all that Christ directed. I know fora fact that we have an “unbroken line of authority” from Jesus Christ and Peter to today. There was no apostacy as represented by JS. The first Vision, upon which all stands, has many conflicting versons. All from the mouth of JS.
I wish you the best in your search. start with attending and participating in Mass. Stay worthy of the Eucharist and you will find level ground in the Catholic way of life.

Your friend in Las Vegas,
Don

 

[ibkc]

I pray that God will forgive me for not having the courage to leave and become a member of the Holy Catholic Church, but I doubt it…

Is it ever too late, while you are still alive? Obviously you are filled with repentance. Find a priest and talk to him about this.

 

[BartBurk]

I joined the LDS church nearly 30 years ago and I did not realise then the challenge and psychological pain I would face sustaining a front that would get me through the Temple Recommend Interview, which is really what I think you mean by the “loyalty test”.

I pray that God will forgive me for not having the courage to leave and become a member of the Holy Catholic Church, but I doubt it…

Asa B. J.

It is difficult. It took me a several years from the time I realized the Book of Mormon was fraudulent to the time I became Catholic. My Mormon wife and kids were the main reason I stayed Mormon so long. I was finally baptized Catholic a little over two years ago and am not about to say it was easy. My family has survived it so far, and I feel a lot more integrity being Catholic than I could have putting up a false front as a Mormon. When the Mormons finally pushed me into actually resigning from the LDS Church it became even better. Sometimes it takes a step of faith. Christ can overcome our fear.

 

[majick275]

Just a person who defends the faith of my daughters.

but since that faith is wrong and since you had the true faith shouldn’t you have been teaching them the catholic faith? your defense of mormonism on their behalf only encourages them in their heresies. is that what you want?

 

[Strevel]

My friend,

I am a firm practicer of tough love. Love does not always mean whimpering, hugging and tears. Sometimes it means that you hunker down and get the ball across the goal line. So, if you will allow me… and even if you will not I will still voice this. We will get the ball across the goal line, you being the ball of course. I will be frank and open.

The Mormons are a Jonny come lately church with a small “c”. They are not “The Church”. You are judged critically and beaten down so they can controll you. You are never lifted and told you are doing a good job, right! My Catholic faith empowers my soul filling me with the tue light of Christ. I lights my way and makes me strong. What i am percieving is a man that has not been built up and made strong. What you are experiencing is not from Christ who saves you!

At this point do not write SLC the letter. You know what I mean. Get your butt in Mass. Do not go to confession yet or take the Eucharist. Sit there and get reaquanted with a very old and true friend, one that has always been there waiting for you, the Catholic CHurch. Attend Mass three times (by plan and appointment) a week for the next six months. Schedule it out on a calendar, literally. Then as you are ready, progress into the Host and Confession. But, only as you are ready. The Church is a wonderful Grandmother that is always there wit cookies and milk, will look sternly to direct you out of love as needed , she will kiss the “boo boos” on your knee when you fall and then lift you up… out of Christs love. Not out of finger pointing and judging!.

Be the best you can be, where you are, as you are. Look up and NEVER down. The love of Christ is all encompassing and will lift you. But you must get off you butt and make things happen. Stop persecuting yourself. By doing so you are doing Satans work and allowing him to do it at your own hand!

I love my Catholic faith. She is my mother in so many fronts. She is the sword that slays the demons, she is the system whereby I am lifted where i am, as I am.

Having been LDS I feel I have an understanding of the …unspoken you allude to. My friend and brother, just get the hell over it and move on. If you have dog **** on your heel you can understand all there is to know about how it got there, your show, the weather that day, … You need to get the dog **** off your shoe, right. Stop intellectualizing about it. This is not a psycological self obsorbed act of self flagilation. This is running from a fire that hurts you! Run through the door to the safety you know to be there. How long will you sleep warm in a wet bed when you are benefitted by getting up, change and wash the sheets then do the same for yourself.

You are a grown man and need no ones permission for your life in any respect. If you want to leave the Mormon Church as I and so many others have done, then do so. What you are feeling is the psycological cult **** they shovel on people. You know exactly what i speak of.

Step 1) Go to Mass and enjoy the great feeling you will feel as you enter the building.

Step 2) Set goals that are hourly and daily that will reunite you with your faith, not your negative finger pointing side. When negs come up. Stop, realize what is happening and make a consious decision to not repeat the self depricating behavior of negative thinking. Catholic idea are very upbeat!! When the Home Teachers (Mormon Stazi) come by tell them to go away, or just do not answee the door. Uh, it is YOUR door and not theirs.

Step 3) Enjoy life, lighten up, be the best you that you can be. **** on others negative views that benefit them and not you. The Mormons would be the hammer and you the nail. Stop participating in that.

Step 4) Participate in Catholic Activities body, mind and spirit.

Drop me an email if you wish. I have a loving bootcamp approach. I understand your quandry. You know what you must do to rectify the pain you feel. But if you stop I will leave you there. You must have the desire and motivation to move forward with the rest of us. I cannot stop my upward growth, …NOR CAN YOU! Move it!

Your Catholic Brother,
Don in Vegas:thumbsup: .

 

[Jerusha]

You are clearly applying the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous to recovery from Mormonism. Wish more did that.

 

[BartBurk]

You are clearly applying the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous to recovery from Mormonism. Wish more did that.

I sometimes wonder if those principles couldn’t be applied to a lot of religious groups. I wonder sometimes if all religions have their addictive element. The line between holiness/craziness seems to me at times to be rather thin no matter which religious group you are looking at. The Catholics who see images of the Virgin Mary in underpasses on the Kennedy Freeway often strike me that way.

 

[Strevel]

I sometimes wonder if those principles couldn’t be applied to a lot of religious groups. I wonder sometimes if all religions have their addictive element. The line between holiness/craziness seems to me at times to be rather thin no matter which religious group you are looking at. The Catholics who see images of the Virgin Mary in underpasses on the Kennedy Freeway often strike me that way.

Irrational behavior is not good anywhere. I have friends here in Las Vegas that think a night of fun is going to a building owned by strangers anf giving their hard earned money away thru a machine.
The Church has its members that are a bit OCD as well. All organisations do.

 

[teancum79]

whyme is mormon but did not serve a mission so he doesn’t realize how much sales training they are given

about 2 hours of “sales training”

Most of the training when I served was a run down of the doctrines with the odd bit of use this approach vs that.

Missionaries are not trained sales people.

 

[PaulDupre]

about 2 hours of “sales training”

Most of the training when I served was a run down of the doctrines with the odd bit of use this approach vs that.

Missionaries are not trained sales people.

Are you kidding?? The entire structure of the missionary discussions is a textbook sales pitch, complete with visual aids.

During the discussions, the missionaries are trained ask the investigator certain questions they have memorized, designed to elicit a “yes” response, as in:

“Mr. Jones, if you knew that you could have your family at your side in the eternities with perfect happiness and well-being, would that be a good thing?”

or…

“Mr. Jones, if you could know for sure exactly what God wants for you and exactly how he plans to make you happy forever, would that be a good thing?”

These questions, to an ordinary person who is not forewarned against these techniques, can only be answered “yes”. Every salesman knows that the more times a customer can be manipulated into saying “yes”, the nearer he is to closing the sale.

Also, the salesman knows that the more times a customer will perform a task that the salesman asks him to do (fill out a form, look at a catalog, read a quote), the more likely the customer is to accept the invitation to close the deal.

The missionary discussions are full of little tasks (read this passage, pray this prayer, read the Book of Mormon, ask God if what we are telling you is true) to get the contact to acquiesce to the missionary’s will and lead the contact to surrender his resistance to the missionary’s challenge to baptism.

This is the technique used by LDS missionaries, and by AmWay reps, car salesmen and everyone else trying to sell you something.

Why else do you think LDS missionaries are so much in demand as salesmen? They already have the technique down pat!

Paul (a former Mormon missionary)

 

[rmcmullan]

I understand. So many arein the same boat. What happens is that the Missionaries (I was a great one) speak softly, and bring about these feelings when they speak of Christ, the BOM, etc… They ask you to read this book and tell me that it is of God. It is a transference, as it is called in psycology. Cars have mechanics and humans have psycologists. A lot of psycology is used diliberately in the little discussions. Even tho it was never called as such that is exactly what I was tained in. I was trained in ways to get the door open.
When we went to a dor we looked for toys in the yard (kids and family approach), tools in the garage (stability and home), pets, (loving relationships) and far far more. These things have nothing to do with Christs, but suckering more people into the rolls of the Mormon Church. When they come to the door you have already been sized up.
You transfered the love of Christ, the special feeling we all have for Christ, the made up story of Christ and little kids in the BOM (so sweet) to the book itself. If an insurance salesman were to try this we’d throw them out. The missionaries and insurance sales reps are selling an idea. …only difference is the insurance man has a product, also unseeen, that you trust in to pay off in the end. The Mormons will not. Look into transference, salesmanship and see how it is used as a tool to move people. You might get a bit upset. You will understand the ral purpose of Fast and Testimony meetings and why people do what they do.

Don in Vegas

What you offer here is a total lack of faith and that is a very common thing. I think we are looking for something to believe in.

I don’t expect you as a Catholic to be objective but I do not like what you’re saying. You excuse all spiritual experience and the testimony of the Holy Ghost, like a non-believer. What you say here you could apply to almost any spiritual experience, Catholic or LDS or whatever. And you are being disrespectful as well. How can anybody take advice from you when you’re so obviously biased?

If any of you want to deal honestly with this issue, I advise you to take seriously the testimony of the Holy Ghost. It would be a far better argument to say “Well the Holy Ghost testifies of all truth and since there is a God and much of what the Mormons teach is true, you will get a testimony on some points.” And from there you can go on and make the case for Apostolic Succession or however you do missionary work.

I frankly think that this is a big gap in RC education. The evangelicals and pentacosticals get it. But it takes a lot of work and faith to develop a sensitivity to the Holy Ghost. And those memorized prayers are not so helpful. The entire idea that prayer should be a communication with God instead of a duty is different. And without that communication, spiritual sensitivity is harder to develop.

 

[PaulDupre]

I think the point is that the missionaries are trained to mis-direct the feelings that people get. It is a bait-and-switch tactic.

After talking about the Book of Mormon, which the investigator may or may not care about, the missionary will testify that Jesus is our savior, that he really lives, that he loves us and wants us to be with him in heaven forever. The investigator will often feel good to hear this, as well he should.

Missionary: “Are you feeling something?”

Investigator: “Yes, I feel kind of good inside.”

Missionary: “That feeling is the Holy Ghost telling you that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. You are very special; not everyone receives a witness from God as quickly as you did.”

Investigator: (Flattered) “Well, I’ve always been kind of spiritual.”

Missionary: “I can feel that you are. You have received personal revelation from God. The Holy Ghost is witnessing to me right now that you are a very special, chosen child of Our Heavenly Father, and he is calling you to be baptized.”

Investigator: “Really?”

Missionary: “Yes, we should obey this revelation from our Heavenly Father. Let’s schedule your baptism as soon as possible. Would next Wednesday evening be all right?”

Investigator: “Well, I guess so.”

Missionary: (Thinking) “Got one!”

So the salesman (er, missionary) steers the process from testifying of Jesus to convincing the investigator that he has had a Moroni 10:4 experience. A classic bait-and-switch. Most people aren’t nearly sophisticated enough to spot the scam. At age 21, I wasn’t.