A Historical Dare to Protestants

[catholic_daddy]

Did Jesus and God The Father have disagreements on doctrine? No! Please show me where the bible gives a list of essential and non-essential doctrines? I doubt you can.

A lot of scholars would consider Paul’s description of what he “delivered” in I Cor 15 to be the essentials of the gospel. Would you consider the Resurrection of Jesus to be anywhere close in essentiality to, say, a list of the spiritual gifts?

 

[guanophore]

Jesus said He will send the Holy Spirit to the apostles. We Catholics (a simple adjective) are one Holy Catholic APOSTOLIC church. So it is you who dosen`t have the Holy Spirit to regurgiate things your man-made church has published.

This is less than charitable. In fact, the HS does work in these ecclesiastical communities to bring people to Himself. It is true that the HS always draws people into unity with the successors of the Apostles, in spite of the man made doctrine. Is not that why there are so many of them here?

 

[broski234]

A lot of scholars would consider Paul’s description of what he “delivered” in I Cor 15 to be the essentials of the gospel. Would you consider the Resurrection of Jesus to be anywhere close in essentiality to, say, a list of the spiritual gifts?

You aren’t answering the question! The question isn’t whether I believe in essential doctrines. I do. All doctrines are essential. Catholics don’t say “it’s ok to disagree on the non-essential doctrines as long as we agree on the essentials”. Whether those words came out of your mouth or not explicitly, that is what you are really saying. These are straightforward “yes or no” questions. It amazes me how hard it is to give someone a yes or no answer. Wait, I know why; because it will bring you to the knowledge of the truth that you are so insistent in denying.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Hi guanophore,

Since Protestant101 did not provide any evidence to support his claims highlighted in red above, I thought I would provide the quotes and sources from which these ideas arise.

Ellen Gould White (adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html)
18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and **authoritative source of truth **which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

From her writings:

***The Great Controversy (1888), page 564, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Chapter XXXV - Character and Aims of the Papacy
The papal church will never relinquish her claim to infallibility. All that she has done in her persecution of those who reject her dogmas, she holds to be right; and would she not repeat the same acts, should the opportunity be presented? Let the restraints now imposed by secular governments be removed, and Rome be re-instated in her former power, and there would speedily be a revival of her tyranny and persecution. ***

***The Great Controversy (1911), page 76, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: The Waldenses
The very existence of this people, holding the faith of the ancient church, was a constant testimony to Rome’s apostasy, and therefore excited the most bitter hatred and persecution. Their refusal to surrender the Scriptures was also an offense that Rome could not tolerate. She determined to blot them from the earth. Now began the most terrible crusades against God’s people in their mountain homes. Inquisitors were put upon their track, and the scene of innocent Abel falling before the murderous Cain was often repeated. ***

Maranatha (1976), page 165, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Apostasy Prepares the Way
Whenever the church has obtained secular power, she has employed it to punish dissent from her doctrines. Protestant churches that have followed in the steps of Rome by forming alliance with worldly powers have manifested a similar desire to restrict liberty of conscience. An example of this is given in the long-continued persecution of dissenters by the Church of England. During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, thousands of nonconformist ministers were forced to flee from their churches, and many, both of pastors and people, were subjected to fine, imprisonment, torture, and martyrdom.

***The Story of Redemption (1947), page 354, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: 49: Failure to Advance
As Satan saw that he had failed to crush out the truth by persecution, he again resorted to the same plan of compromise which had led to the great apostasy and the formation of the church of Rome. He induced Christians to ally themselves, not now with pagans,
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but with those who, by their worship of the god of this world, as truly proved themselves idolaters. ***

The Colporteur Evangelist (1950), page 99, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Chapter 16 - Fragments
As long as probation continues, there will be opportunity for the canvasser to work. When the religious denominations unite with the papacy to oppress God’s people, places where there is religious freedom will be opened by evangelistic canvassing. If in one place the persecution becomes severe, let the workers do as Christ has directed. “When they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another.” If persecution comes there, go to still another place. God will lead His people, making them a blessing in many
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places. Were it not for persecution they would not be so widely scattered abroad to proclaim the truth. And Christ declares: “Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.” Matthew 10:23. Until in heaven is spoken the word, “It is finished,” there will always be places for labor, and hearts to receive the message.–Testimonies, Vol. 6, page 478.

(see con’t 2)

Guano is a great respector of the spiritual gifts, as is the RCC. They will no doubt give those prophecies the respect they deserve, however humbling and painful that may be.

 

[elvisman]

Sorry Bro, but A) That goes against the RCC’s official position on other Christian churches and B) that is definitely not what Jesus had in mind and C) The fruit of evangelicals is plentiful and points the the hand of God on them.

???
What are you talking about?
What is the Catholic Church’s "official position"?
What did Jesus "have in mind"?
Please enlighten me.

Hit-and-run posts don’t work.
**Ummm . . . still waiting for an answer . . .:compcoff: **

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

…, however humbling and painful that may be.

Or wildly insane?

God bless all!!!

 

[guanophore]

Hi guanophore,

Since Protestant101 did not provide any evidence to support his claims highlighted in red above, I thought I would provide the quotes and sources from which these ideas arise.

Thank you Patrick! You have been very thorough with your research! I appreciate it. I was aware of some of these ‘prophesies’ and have interacted frequently with SDA’s here and learned more, but this detail is very helpful.

I am trying very hard, though to avoid derailing the thread, so I am not going to respond to any of it here. This is probably all that can be produced in response to the OP?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Thank you Patrick! You have been very thorough with your research! I appreciate it. I was aware of some of these ‘prophesies’ and have interacted frequently with SDA’s here and learned more, but this detail is very helpful.

I am trying very hard, though to avoid derailing the thread, so I am not going to respond to any of it here. This is probably all that can be produced in response to the OP?

You are welcome guanophore…and I understand!

God bless all!!!

 

[guanophore]

To an outsider, there is no difference between the veneration of Saints, and the worship of idols. The behavioural pattern associated with each is identical.

jonathon

Well, I beg to differ! I suppose, to a person looking on from the outside, if one were to kneel in a hallowed area, an observer could assume that such a one was worshipping a tree, or a rock, or even a statue. But, it is unwise to judge according to external appearnaces. Worship requires a conscious act of the will. Therefore, no one can 'worship" by accident!

I fail to see, however, what this has to do with the OP. Is it your contention that the historical basis of the Catholic faith is invalid because Catholics appear to be worshipping idols?

It is no more self-refuting than deciding that the claims of a small group of individuals has sole authority to make decisions for all.

jonathon

Indeed it is! For that Scripture testifies that Jesus appointed the authority to lead the Church, but it does not testify that Scripture is to be used as the final authority. One would think, if the doctrine were so essential, it would be found in the Scriptures. Unfortunately it is an extra-biblical doctrine. This is not a problem for catholics, as all of our doctrines predated the NT. It is a problem for those that say doctrine should be “grounded” in scripture, as I often hear sola scriturists claim.

Again, I cannot connect this to the OP. Can you help? Are you saying the claim of the Catholic Church is not valid because we believe it is valid?

 

[guanophore]

John Wesley was onced asked by a man, *“Where was your church before the Reformation?” *To which Wesley replied, “Where was your face before you washed it? Behind the dirt.”

Without a doubt, the Reformers were unable to ‘see’ the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. If they could, they would not have felt a need to establish something apart from it.

 

[jblake]

broski234;:

theological or doctrinal disagreement, then get thee back to the Catholic Church.

You do realize that I was refering to congregational splits within The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, don’t you.

jonathon

 

[broski234]

You do realize that I was refering to congregational splits within The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, don’t you.

jonathon

Yeah the first split was the Great Schizm in 1054. Then the Protestant “Deformation”. Now, answer the questions and quit side-stepping.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Surely it can be done, not daddy’s boy. All you do to start a new thread is go to the forum home page, and click on the button that says 'new thread". This may seem difficult for you to grasp, since you seem to revel in rebellion against authority, but following the forum rules is not “hiding”. It is respecting the value of CAF, which is very important to me. I have to work hard to stay on topic, but such a blatant invitation as this is even obvious to me.

I love many quotes of Abe Lincoln. One of my favorites is “it is better to be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt”. This principle can especially be applied when one is new to an environment. One can certainly appear wiser by quietly learning before putting one’s foot in one’s mouth.

The OP is the “Original Post”. Go back to the first post on the thread. Read it, then click the ‘quote’ button at the bottom and see how you do!

Clearly not, since some of what the Apostle references also applies to us. Taunting me and trying to bait my ego to get me off the topic is not going to work, though.

I have no need for one! It is clear to me what it means. You seem to be the one with the problem. You have adopted an interpretation that contradicts the Apostolic Teaching. This is one of the reasons for the OP.

I think your personal disparagements are also off topic.

No I seriously did not know how to do that. Thanks for taking the time to graciously instruct me, though. I will start that thread, if you are going to participate, but it sounds like you are backing down! Methinks I struck a sensitive nerve.

You may have taken a moment to think about that amazing text and have realized that you either don’t understand it at all or that it actually means what I am saying it means, and, well, either of those options may be unattractive for you.

I think that when Abe Lincoln offered those words, he wasn’t talking about people who would ask honest questions about things new to them. Usually someone unwilling to do that is not a wise man, but rather a proud man. That man, we are told on Scripture is one whom God opposes.

I am sorry for anything I said that was, in effect a personal attack. When I get into the mode of a prophet, I tend to play the role of, say Elijah with the prophets of Baal and, well, I get carried away. I will be more careful. Please forgive me.

 

[catholic_daddy]

Hit-and-run posts don’t work.
Ummm . . . still waiting for an answer . . .:compcoff:

You don’t know the position on Christian churches outside the RCC?

 

[elvisman]

You don’t know the position on Christian churches outside the RCC?

I’m asking you to post them as stated by the Church because you’re the one who made the claim - as well as the claim that you know what Jesus had in mind.

**Can you?
Do you?

 

[catholic_daddy]

You aren’t answering the question! The question isn’t whether I believe in essential doctrines. I do. All doctrines are essential. Catholics don’t say “it’s ok to disagree on the non-essential doctrines as long as we agree on the essentials”. Whether those words came out of your mouth or not explicitly, that is what you are really saying. These are straightforward “yes or no” questions. It amazes me how hard it is to give someone a yes or no answer. Wait, I know why; because it will bring you to the knowledge of the truth that you are so insistent in denying.

I guess we have different points we are making. I was making the point that there are doctrines that are non-negotiables, so to speak when it comes to saying what is a Christian and what is not. Your point was about discrediting churches that have differing doctrines on things that don’t pertain to the person and work of Christ, the Nature of God and Salvation.

 

[broski234]

I guess we have different points we are making. I was making the point that there are doctrines that are non-negotiables, so to speak when it comes to saying what is a Christian and what is not. Your point was about discrediting churches that have differing doctrines on things that don’t pertain to the person and work of Christ, the Nature of God and Salvation.

Do you understand what a doctrine is in relation to the bible? Doctrines are the Word of God. Which Words of God are negotiable? There are none. So all doctrine pertaining to faith and morals is important and all are essential.

 

[catholic_daddy]

**I’m asking you **to post them as stated by the Church because you’re the one who made the claim - as well as the claim that you know what Jesus had in mind.

***Can ***you?
Do you?

I do. I am driving right now. So I will respond later.

 

[Katrina5]

Sometimes I chuckle at your posts - it’s like you are in the karate ring having a fight with your opposers. You pick apart posts so that it is impossible for you to stay on topic yourself.

But what I don’t understand is that you, as the Catholic, should be able to show us the history that would affect the answers people see to the OPs question. You are repeating the same mistake that most of the Catholics make here - you simply repeat the claims about your Church, without real proof that the claims are so.

Rome’s doctrines and practices thereof have not changed since the time when they did all their “Inquisition” ministry. In countries where she can get away with it - you can bet the legislation in favor of Catholic doctrines; in fact ENFORCING Catholic doctrine, is still flying high. Rome is waiting, with a more conciliatory tone in other countries where it is not allowed; but the time will come.

If Protestants are so wrong about Church History; how come you can’t prove that the Roman Catholic Church no longer has the same political desires as it had during the Papacy of the middle ages? What happened to “Infallibility?” The big dare here should really be to the Catholics.

I know I said a couple days ago that in Debate class in college, we were taught not to question the motives of the other side.
I think however, that if there really is going to be fair debate, things like the Pope, worshipping statues, praying to saints and Mary, and the Inquisition have to be kept out.
Debating IS NOT fighting dirty.
It is using well researched ideas and putting some thought behind your overly emotional hateful attacks on the Catholic Church.
Yes, I do wonder why people come to this site, and I found out today by asking, in person, a protestant who told me he comes here. He couldn’t answer with a logical answer.
I was being nice to him, because he seemed like a nice enough person.
But he sneered at my crucifix as he left my house.
There are some people who hate the church and they don’t even know why, they hate what they think is the Church. They are so steeped in this hatred that all we can do is pray for them because hatred is a horrible feeling.
As for me, I will not be getting into any more mud-slinging fights with people who are Willfully Ignorant.
Read, study, pray, then come to the table for “answers” to your questions.

 

[Katrina5]

It is very interesting that they claim to be, isn’t it?

However we both know that the history of Protestantism is nothing but a history of variations. Not even the first Reformers could agree among themselves. Recognizing the fallacy of it all, Luther himself, writing to Zwingli, declared: “If the world will last much longer, on account of all the interpretations of the Scriptures, that now exist, in order to keep the unity of faith, it will be again necessary to receive the decrees of Councils and to have recourse to them.”

Yeah, and “sola Scriptura” has a, well, Catholic, Latin sound to it. Do you think they ARE trying to communicate with us in our language?
I’m joking, of course, but I have always wondered why they use the Latin terminology, for something they cling to so tightly and in which they claim we are so “wrong.”
Anybody know for sure?