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Bill_B_NY
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Rabbinic (modern day) Judaism is a newer religion than Christianity. That establishment of a Jewish center did not come from a divine mandate or the word of Prophets. It was a man-made concept.
A question about modern Judaism
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Pattylt
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It seems like I need to clear up one misconception. There were never just the Jews…a monolithic religion. There have always been several variations. From Josephus we get some information on at least four different sects and other histories give us inklings of seven or more. Not all Jews were looking for a Messiah. Not all Jews believed in heaven. Some only used the Pentateuch for their faith and others included the writings and the prophets (the OT). One other thing I would like to clarify…no one that was looking for a Messiah, was looking for one like Jesus and many of the OT prophesies that Christians declare as foretelling of the Messiah were never seen as that by Jews. Christians declared the OT foretold of Jesus. These passages were never interpreted as such by the Jews. So, just be careful when discussing “the Jews” believes this or that…many did not!
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Bill_B_NY
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When we read of the calling of the apostles, I think they recognized exactly who the Messiah was.
The Gospel writers referred to those prophecies, and Jesus referenced them Himself.
Jesus confirmed His role as Messiah through his works - His miracles. So, are you saying that He didn’t understand the Old Testament? That the Jews, who you admit weren’t even consistent in their understanding of what the Old Testament meant, knew more about the Scriptural prophecies than Jesus did? Where did they get that understanding? Was Jesus right when he said that Abraham rejoiced to see Him?
The Church has proclaimed the Old Testament prophecies of Christ from the very first days.
On the road to Emmaus, Jesus explained the prophecies of Scripture to the apostles. If the Jews didn’t see or understand those prophecies, then they had - as St. Paul teaches, a veil over their eyes. The same is true today.
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EndTimes
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Rabbinic Judaism (Hebrew: יהדות רבנית, romanized: Yahadut Rabanit), also called Rabbinism, or Judaism espoused by the Rabbanites, has been the mainstream form of Judaism since the 6th century CE, after the codification of the Babylonian Talmud.EndTimes:
Education about history is the key here.
That statement is wrong.
Some non-Christian Jews refer to AD as CE…
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OurLadyofSorrows
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Did you happen to read the timeline in my second link?
If you did, you will find the statemen
quite incorrect.
If you read the first link, it sheds light on the beginnings way back in Moses’ day.
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Bill_B_NY
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I think by Rabbinic Judiasm it is referring to the event that occurred after the Resurrection of Jesus. It was a new form of Judiasm - the form that is present today. Some could argue that it really didn’t get off the ground for a century or so after the destruction of the Temple. By the time the Talmud was codified, which was centuries later, it was a much different religion than before Jesus’ time. In the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jewish genealogies were destroyed so it is impossible for Jews from that time until today to trace their lineage back to the ine of David. Thus, in practical terms, the possibility of a Messiah conforming to the Old Testament plan was also impossible.
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OurLadyofSorrows
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If we are going to argue that, it began during the seige of the Temple between AD 67 and 70 with those who escaped the seige, settled elsewhere and began working on how to be Jewish and keep the law without the Temple.
Geneologies as with many facets of Judaism were also oral.
That really has no bearing on the OT plan for the expected Messiah to conform to different plans . One example of this is where various candidates were showing up pre and post Jesus, one being the leader of revolt a hundred years or so post 2nd Temple destruction.
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Bill_B_NY
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Some people use the term “Talmudic Judaism” in the same way. It is a religious form created after the death of Our Lord, so it is not the inheritor of the Old Testament.
People often think that Orthodox Judaism is the most authentic and ancient form, but that actually started in the 19th century. It’s a modern phenomenon in that sense.
It’s like how Protestants will claim that they were really present during the Early Church, but it’s not true. Protestantism was “invented” so to speak, in the 1500s. It’s similar with modern-day Judaism.
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Bill_B_NY
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Yes, you could say that. The timeline you gave showed that. So, in that case, not “began centuries” after but “almost a century” after.
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OurLadyofSorrows
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Are we going to argus semantics over ‘began’
What is your level for begin, mine is ground zero, grass roots, work starts on an emerging new situation. This happened with those great minds being smuggled out and escaping a seige everyone knew would end badly for Israel and its Temple
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Pattylt
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@Bill_B_NY,
You are viewing Judaism through your Catholic lenses which you have every right to do. Just understand that you have no right to tell Jews what their religion is or is not. Most of your posts are about your opinion and should be stated as thus.
The Jews never abandoned Torah, the backbone of Judaism. Much of their adaptations were perfectly in line with Torah law and they continued what they could…often what they were allowed. When no longer allowed to have priests and a Temple, they formed Rabbinic Judaism within Judaism itself, having hundreds of exceptional scholars defining how their faith could continue and thrive. If you want to call it man made and leave no room for Gods guiding hand, that’s your privilege. They would definitely beg to differ.
You are viewing Judaism through your Catholic lenses which you have every right to do. Just understand that you have no right to tell Jews what their religion is or is not. Most of your posts are about your opinion and should be stated as thus.
The Jews never abandoned Torah, the backbone of Judaism. Much of their adaptations were perfectly in line with Torah law and they continued what they could…often what they were allowed. When no longer allowed to have priests and a Temple, they formed Rabbinic Judaism within Judaism itself, having hundreds of exceptional scholars defining how their faith could continue and thrive. If you want to call it man made and leave no room for Gods guiding hand, that’s your privilege. They would definitely beg to differ.
Crusader13
New member
From what I’ve read, it doesn’t matter exactly when this offshoot off Judaism officially began.
What’s important is the destruction of the Temple and the old covenant signified something greater that is often overlooked.
In the old covenant God dwelt within the Temple and His covenant was made with one nation. In order to become members of the covenant you needed to be circumcised and then through the marriage bond, one’s family became members as well. Their descendants were then given this inheritance of being in the covenant and part of the nation which were God’s people.
The Jewish leadership, at the time of Christ, were leading the faithful Jews down the wrong path and into destruction. The faithful Jews that still believed in God and the prophecies, recognized Jesus for who He was and became part of the Church.
The Church is the new and holy nation that was established to replace the old covenant. The temple and the old nation of Israel were no longer the sole dwelling place of God.
That is why we are given the new sacraments and signs of the new covenant. Baptism replaces circumcision as the outward sign that your are part of the New Nation. There are no longer animal sacrifices to remit sin, Jesus was crucified once and for all, and the Passover gave way to the New Passover, celebrated not with the sacrifice of an actual lamb, but with Christ as the new lamb under the appearance of bread and wine.
That is exactly what we celebrate every Sunday at mass. Once all the connections are made everything falls into place and it makes perfect sense. Judaism is no longer needed because the old covenant laws and requirements are no longer necessary.
What’s important is the destruction of the Temple and the old covenant signified something greater that is often overlooked.
In the old covenant God dwelt within the Temple and His covenant was made with one nation. In order to become members of the covenant you needed to be circumcised and then through the marriage bond, one’s family became members as well. Their descendants were then given this inheritance of being in the covenant and part of the nation which were God’s people.
The Jewish leadership, at the time of Christ, were leading the faithful Jews down the wrong path and into destruction. The faithful Jews that still believed in God and the prophecies, recognized Jesus for who He was and became part of the Church.
The Church is the new and holy nation that was established to replace the old covenant. The temple and the old nation of Israel were no longer the sole dwelling place of God.
That is why we are given the new sacraments and signs of the new covenant. Baptism replaces circumcision as the outward sign that your are part of the New Nation. There are no longer animal sacrifices to remit sin, Jesus was crucified once and for all, and the Passover gave way to the New Passover, celebrated not with the sacrifice of an actual lamb, but with Christ as the new lamb under the appearance of bread and wine.
That is exactly what we celebrate every Sunday at mass. Once all the connections are made everything falls into place and it makes perfect sense. Judaism is no longer needed because the old covenant laws and requirements are no longer necessary.
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Bill_B_NY
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I think your post is about your opinion also, including the opinion that I don’t have the right to express the truth as I see it. But I’m not telling Jews anything at this point. There is no authoritative voice that speaks of all of Judaism. As I pointed out, Jews do not need to believe in God.
I’ll disagree here. As Jesus, St .Paul and the Gospel writers point out, if the Jews accepted the Torah they would have accepted their Messiah, because the Torah teaches about Jesus. The Torah comes from God, not from the Jews. The Torah belongs to the Catholic Church. Jesus is the King of the Jews. If the Jews do not want to abandon the Torah, then they are welcome into the Church of their Messiah. If they reject the Son of God, they are left with nothing.
They had no authority from God to do anything. They had no Prophet. It was all just a man-centered approach.
God did not authorize any of that. God established one True religion on earth, with the Son of God as Head, Messiah and King of the fulfilled Israel. What the rabbis were doing was trying to escape from God, in their own world. I wouldn’t call them exceptional scholars if they couldn’t recognize the truth about Jesus.
God’s guiding hand leads to the Catholic Faith - worship of Jesus. What the Jews (rejectors of Christ) did was oppose God’s plan and they suffered a lot of punishment for that. They had no justification for anything they did really. Thankfully, many have converted and come into the Kingdom that was promised to them.
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PapyrusDouay
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The part about there being no Temple has been clearly answered.
As for modern times, you really have to look at the historical developments within Judaism. Starting with the the early diaspora where Jews were Jews in lands outside Jerusalem… that’s where the synagogue started, pre-destruction of the Temple. Modern Judaism IS a historical continuation of Temple Judaism, but with adaptations. In addition to the community and prayer life in the diaspora, the early Post-Temple jewish scholars (mostly Pharisees) saw Torah Study as the principal substitution for the Temple sacrifices. There were and continue to be theological reasons for that. I’m simplifying, but more or less those who were most learned in Torah also became the obvious choice for community leaders …the Rabbis. That is both the (simplified) beginning of Rabbinical Judaism, and also the continuation of the Temple sacrifice today from a Jewish perspective. But don’t forget the diaspora Jews had long been living as Jews without access to the Temple also, so there were traditions from the diaspora communities that come to rabbinical Judaism as well. Judaism has changed, yes. Is it a completely different religion/people? not at all. Someone from Temple era Jerusalem might not recognize it, but someone from Temple era diaspora probably would. The Jewish people had to make adaptations, as they always have, and did.
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EndTimes
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TMC
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I will just stand by what I previously said. Your view of Judaism does not comport with Catholic teaching, and alleging that the Jews of today are not true Jews, is pretty far down a slope that ends in a bad place.
Crusader13
New member
Crusader13
New member
The adaptations that were made were not because of unforeseen circumstances. A few others have made similar claims. This makes it sound like the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was not intentional.
It was a judgement handed down by God, because the Jewish leaders of that time were not faithful to God. The Old system was replaced and what replaced it was in fulfillment of the prophecies.
We can’t just say that Judaism found a way to persevere and overcome hard times. That’s disingenuous and nullifies God’s actual intent.
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PapyrusDouay
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Actually, he’s not viewing Judaism through a Catholic lens. He’s relaying his person opinions only.
The Catholic Church teaches that Jews still hold a distinct place as God’s original Chosen People, that they have not abandoned God, and that God has not abandoned them nor revoked his Covenant with the People of Israel. The Church views Christianity and modern Judaism as two siblings from the same Second Temple parent, and both as “bearers of God’s Word”.
More on Church teaching here:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20151210_ebraismo-nostra-aetate_en.html#5._The_universality_of_salvation_in_Jesus_Christ_and_God’s_unrevoked_covenant_with_Israel
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