A question about modern Judaism

[Crusader13]

You view of Judaism is also out of step with the Church.

How so? What have I said that was not in accordance with charity or Church teaching?

@TMC, @OurLadyofSorrows, @billsherman, @PapyrusDouay, @ltwin

The last thing I want is for any errors or falsehoods to be spread. In addition, I don’t want to misrepresent anyone’s own views or make assumptions about what they believe.

So I will attempt to ask this as plainly as possible to clear up any confusion.

Is it your belief that the Church teaches and has always taught, that the Jews of today, are under the old covenant and as a result can enter the Kingdom of Heaven, because the new covenant is not binding on them?

 

[Pattylt]

Thank you for the Christian response to Judaism. As an ex-Jew, however, I disagree with you.

 

[Gab123]

You also cannot realistically make an argument that it was formed in reaction to Christianity. There is no historical evidence for either of those positions, and they are often taken by antisemites who use the arguments as a way to claim modern Jews aren’t “real” Jews. That is false. It is also anti-Catholic.

It’s not that Jews today are not Jews, it’s that the Talmud is not inspired Scripture. Modern Judaism is rooted in Rabbinic Judaism, or Judaism of the Talmud, which is not inspired by God, and is a collection of rabbinic commentary.

Well, that’s like saying the America of today is not the same America as in 1776.

It’s more like saying that Martin Luther and Joel Olsteen are not the same as the authentic apostolic authority and teaching passed down to the Catholic Church. In other words, Joel Olsteen’s televised megachurch services are not the same thing as the Sacrifice if the Holy mass. Joel Olsteen may be a Christian, but he’s certainly not Catholic nor teaching the same things.

The only thing that changed in 70 AD was that the Romans destroyed the Temple.

Lots of things changed, including the rejection of the Septuagint by the Pharisees and the subsequent establishment of rabbinic Judaism and the Rabbinic commentary steering Jews via the Talmud. Interestingly, in Israel Today there is an active movement called One for Israel, started by Israeli Jews who have converted to Jesus Christ, and they address the Talmud here:

Video of the One for Israel movement in the heart of Israel, where Israeli Jewish converts to Jesus Christ have formed an active ministry:

As for the Catholic Church teaching about Jews today, the Church teaches that before the Second Coming of Christ, right before the end of the world as we know it, there will be a massive conversion of Jews to Jesus Christ. This is rooted in what St. Paul said, about how in the end all of Israel will be saved:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved…” Romans 11:25-26

Thus the Church realizes that the hardening hearts of the 1st century Jewish leaders who rejected Christ Is part of God’s Divine Plan. I think we are beginning to see this conversion starting, when we hear Roy Schoeman’s dramatic conversion story as well as what is happening in Israel today, with the One for Israel movement. Below is Roy Schoeman’s dramatic conversion experience:

 

[billsherman]

Is it your belief that the Church teaches and has always taught, that the Jews of today, are under the old covenant and as a result can enter the Kingdom of Heaven, because the new covenant is not binding on them?

Are you asking if Jews can go to Heaven? If so, the answer is infallibly “yes.” To whit: “That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery.”

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As to theological questions that go beyond this - about covenants and such - I don’t know. But Jews, according to the Church, can absolutely, beyond any shadow of a doubt, go to Heaven. The Church has spoken infallibly on this point.

 

[billsherman]

It’s not that Jews today are not Jews, it’s that the Talmud is not inspired Scripture. Modern Judaism is rooted in Rabbinic Judaism, or Judaism of the Talmud, which is not inspired by God, and is a collection of rabbinic commentary.

The Talmud isn’t scripture at all. The Talmud is not, and has been held to be scripture. Jews view the Torah as scripture. Everything else can only deepen their understanding of Torah, not replace it.

Modern Judaism is rooted in Rabbinic Judaism, or Judaism of the Talmud, which is not inspired by God

No. It isn’t. Modern Judaism is rooted in the Torah. I highly recommend that you spend some time with actual Jewish people. Attend some services. Speak with a few Rabbis. Then read ALL of the Church’s documents on the relationship between Judaism and Catholicism.

Your views on Judaism are seriously flawed. In fact, I expect they are downright offensive to many Jews.

 

[Gab123]

No. It isn’t. Modern Judaism is rooted in the Torah

Yes, this is true, but again, today’s Judaism is, . . . in part . . . influenced and steered by the Talmud, which is certainly not inspired by God.

. I highly recommend that you spend some time with actual Jewish people. Attend some services. Speak with a few Rabbi

I have, and they have all told me that Jesus Christ was a false teacher; and if you read the Talmud it teaches that Jesus was a sorcerer who is in hell, which I find offensive.

read ALL of the Church’s documents on the relationship between Judaism and Catholicism.

I have; again the Church teches that the hardening of hearts of the Jewish leaders in the first century is part of God’s Divine Plan, thus as St. Paul wrote:
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved…” Romans 11:25-26

Your views on Judaism are seriously flawed. In fact, I expect they are downright offensive to many Jews.

What is flawed? I’m just telling you what convert from Judaism Roy Schoeman explains in the earlier video, as well as what the Church teaches about the conversion of the Jews before the SecondComing of Christ.

 

[billsherman]

Yes, this is true, but again, today’s Judaism is influenced and steered by the Talmud, which is certainly not inspired by God.

It is not rooted in the Talmud, as you originally claimed. Moving the goalposts when you finally run into people who actually know something about Judaism is a problem. You could just say - yes, you’re right, I was wrong.

I have, and they have all told me that Jesus Christ was a false teacher;

I seriously doubt that. You don’t appear to know very much about Judaism. Which movement are these Rabbis from? Who are they? I’ve never spoken to a Rabbi who had anything bad to say about Jesus. Not once. Never.

I have; again the Church teches that the hardening of hearts of the Jewish leaders in the first century is part of God’s Dovine Plan, thus as St. Paul wrote:
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved…” Romans 11:25-26

So you have ignored the Church’s documents on Judaism which explicitly condemn your interpretation: “Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.”

You cannot be more wrong about the Church’s teaching on the Jews. It is laid out so plainly the blind can see it, and the deaf can hear it.

 

[billsherman]

and if you read the Talmud it teaches that Jesus was a sorcerer who is in hell, which I find offensive.

This is so serious a slur it requires a separate reply.

This is false. It is also a common antisemitic trope. There are others - particularly one which claims that the Talmud claims Mary was a prostitute. That’s false too. You will find these claims on lots of antisemitic websites and such.

The passage to which you are referring can be translated into English as such:

Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah. When Matthai was brought [before the court] he said to them [the judges], Shall Matthai be executed? Is it not written, Matthai [when] “shall I come and appear before God?” Thereupon they retorted; Yes, Matthai shall be executed, since it is written, "When Matthai [when] shall [he] die and his name perish.When Nakai was brought in he said to them; Shall Nakai be executed? Is it not written, Naki [the innocent] and the righteous slay thou not? Yes, was the answer, Nakai shall be executed, since it is written, in secret places does Naki [the innocent] slay. When Nezer was brought in, he said; Shall Nezer be executed? Is it not written, And Nezer. Yes, they said, Nezer shall be executed, since it is written, But thou art cast forth away from thy grave like Nezer [an abhorred offshoot]. When Buni was brought in, he said: Shall Buni be executed? Is it not written, Beni my first born? Yes, they said, Buni shall be executed, since it is written, Behold I will slay Bine-ka [thy son] thy first born. And when Todah was brought in, he said to them; Shall Todah be executed? Is it not written, A psalm for Todah [thanksgiving]? Yes, they answered, Todah shall be executed, since it is written, Whoso offereth the sacrifice of Todah [thanksgiving] honoured me.

As you can see, other than the name being the same (Yeshua was an extremely common name at the time, and still is in various places), this cannot be connected to Jesus of Nazareth. Nothing matches, nothing. I would be shocked if you can find even a single scholar today who thinks this is related to Jesus of Nazareth.

Incidentally, you are also wrong about the being in hell part. That is purely an invention, as it appears nowhere in the text - and there is no cohesive Jewish view of an afterlife (Heaven OR Hell).

 

[Gab123]

It is not rooted in the Talmud, as you originally claimed. Moving the goalposts when you finally run into people who actually know something about Judaism is a problem. You could just say - yes, you’re right, I was wrong.

Instead of giving spiteful responses, listen to what I am saying. Obviously the Jews have the Torah, but again, today’s Judaism is Rabbinic Judaism, as Roy Schoeman explains in the video. Please watch it and then give a thoughtful response to Schoeman’s presentation:

I’ve never spoken to a Rabbi who had anything bad to say about Jesus. Not once. Never.

Maybe because you never asked. Historically, the subject of Jesus has been taboo among most Jews. If you ask a rabbi, he will certainly tell you that Jesus was a false messiah; never mind what the Talmud says.

So you have ignored the Church’s documents on Judaism which explicitly condemn your interpretation: “Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.”

The problem is that you are not listening; instead you are pushing panic buttons and applying stereotypes. But you are right to say that the Church is the new People of God, and that the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God. The good news is that many Jews today are converting to Christ.

This is so serious a slur it requires a separate reply.

Realize that many scholars today admit that many passages in the Talmud are indeed talking about Jesus of Nazareth. Historically, the first Catholic censorship of the Talmud was in the 6th century, and again in the Middle Ages for containing blasphemous references to Jesus; Jewish apologists at the time argued that Joshua was a common Jewish name, along with its derivations, and that the citations referred to individuals other than Jesus of the gospels. But scholars now argue that it is clear that the references are to Jesus of Nazareth and that the apologists were just putting up a defense in order to preserve the Talmud.

Peter Schäfer the director of the Jewish Museum in Berlin, who authored the book Jesus in the Talmud, explains that there can be no doubt that the narrative of the execution of Jesus in the Talmud refers to Jesus of Nazareth. His book pieces together the references to Jesus Christ in the Talmud. Here is a link to that book

One can read for themselves the texts about Jesus in the Talmud and draw their own conclusions, which is pretty obvious. But I think we can both rejoice that Jews today are beginning to find Jesus Christ, and it is Jews themselves today who are arguing against the rabbis and the Talmud. The One For Israel movement of Jews in Israel explain the Jewish perspective of the Talmud in this video. Please watch it and ponder what they say:

 

[Crusader13]

Are you asking if Jews can go to Heaven?

No that wasn’t what I asked. I was referring to the Jews being under the old covenant and entering the Kingdom of Heaven while not having to be part of the New Covenant.

I think I have a better understanding of what you’re trying to imply based upon the article you cited.

That article makes reference to the document about the The Theological Reflection on the Catholic-Jewish relationship on the anniversary of Nostra Aetate.

The preface is noteworthy.

The text is not a magisterial document or doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church, but is a reflection prepared by the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews on current theological questions that have developed since the Second Vatican Council.

Basically it is an attempt to analyze and offer insight into our relationship with the Jews. The document does not attempt to offer new teachings with regards to the questions we’ve been asking. It reflects a modern understanding about the possibility of any hostility aimed at our Jewish brethren in light of salvation and tradition.

Church teaching and Tradition, has consistently upheld that there are not two separate covenants. We’ve always prayed for the conversion of the Jews and there are no new documents or teachings that suggest anything has changed.

 

[EndTimes]

No that wasn’t what I asked. I was referring to the Jews being under the old covenant and entering the Kingdom of Heaven while not having to be part of the New Covenant.

There’s a major difference between the Old and New

At any Rate - Prophecy includes the Return of Jews in large numbers
before Jesus’ Return

++++++++++++++++++++++

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this wayall Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[TMC]

Jews who reject(ed) Jesus are by definition Not my elder brothers of Faith .

You are free to believe what you want, but this is not consistent with Catholic teaching.

I also find it odd that you put so much emphasis on the fact that some Jewish practices have changed in 2,000 years. Christian practices have changed in 2,000 years, but that would not give other religions the right to claim that today’s Catholics are not Christians in the same way that first century Catholics were.

 

[TMC]

It’s not that Jews today are not Jews, it’s that the Talmud is not inspired Scripture. Modern Judaism is rooted in Rabbinic Judaism, or Judaism of the Talmud, which is not inspired by God, and is a collection of rabbinic commentary.

You could replace the word “Talmud” with “Ecumenical Councils and the Catechism” and apply your thinking to Catholicism (and many Christians do).

So are you saying that the changes you perceive in Judaism mean any of: a) Jews of today are rejected by God, b) Jews of today have rejected God, or c) Jews of today cannot be saved? (Spoiler alert, each of those positions are against Church teaching.)

 

[Gab123]

You could replace the word “Talmud” with “Ecumenical Councils and the Catechism” and apply your thinking to Catholicism (and many Christians do).

The difference is that the Church has apostolic authority. Remember, Jesus did not hand out Bibles. Instead He founded His Church and gave the Church authority to teach in His name until the end of the present world. That’s because The Holy Spirit guides the Church throughout the ages. Councils that speak in union with the bishops and the pope are authoritative, thus the teachings of the Catechism of the Catholic Church are binding on Catholics.

So one must beware of the spirit of division: Just as the devil quoted the Sacred Scriptures to Christ in the desert, so too do anti-Catholic Christians misinterpret the Sacred Scriptures to contradict the Church, just as ultra-conservative Catholics misinterpret the documents of Vatican II to contradict the Church; just as sensational headlines misinterpret and twist the words of the Holy Father.

So are you saying that the changes you perceive in Judaism mean any of: a) Jews of today are rejected by God, b) Jews of today have rejected God, or c) Jews of today cannot be saved? (Spoiler alert, each of those positions are against Church teaching.)

Not changes I perceive, but rather, changes that happened.

As far as Jews today, they are not rejected by God no more than the atheist is rejected by God, or the Buddhist or the Hindu or the Protestant or the Catholic. When it comes to salvation, God has no favorites. Judgment is not based on religion, but rather on what one does with what they are given. Obviously you as a Catholic will be held to a much higher standard than the Hindu or the Jew being that you have the full deposit of faith and the means for sanctification through the Sacraments, which are fountains of sanctifying grace given to Catholics in overflowing measures. Those who knowingly reject the truth are rejecting God. But Jews and Muslims and Hindus, etc. usually do not know that they are rejecting the truth. But once the lightbulb turns on and they are given the grace to realize the truth and still reject it, be it through sin, laziness, fear or neglect, etc. then that’s a different matter. Much like a Catholic who knowingly commits a grave sin.

A Catholic has all the treasures of truths and food for the journey and the great responsibility that comes with it. For a Catholic to not know the Catechism is no excuse, being that knowing it is a responsibility. One has to understand that being a Catholic is different than being a Jew or a Hindu, in the sense that as a Catholic you are part of the Church Militant, meaning that you have a greater responsibility toward your fellow man.

 

[Gab123]

So are you saying

Catholics have all the means for sanctification. A Catholic is supposed to be a Eucharistic vessel of reparation, having a special role in the salvation of souls, through prayer, penance, and sacrifice for the conversion of sinners. Thus the constant reminder from heaven through Marian apparitions, I.e. Fatima, Lourdes etc. Is always the same message to Catholics: Penance Penance Penance! Pray the Rosary!

Those who do not have the treasures of the Catholic Faith and the spiritual food and the means of sanctification via the Sacraments, have it much harder to be sanctified, and are easy prey to the enemy of the soul who operates in the realm of the intellect; thus God judges them based on what they were given and based on how they loved. Thus a non-Catholic has the possibility of being saved, yet the levels of sanctification expected from them is not the same as for you as a Catholic who has it all. Christ speaks about this in the gospels.

The big tragedy in Catholicism is when a Catholic reduces his faith to merely voting for the right political issues, attending a beautiful liturgy, and merely following commandments. Catholicism is about transformation of heart and a death to the old self and becoming instruments of God’s grace in this world of darkness.

Archbishop Sheen speaks about it here in these two brief talks:
AUDIO #1:

AUDIO #2:

 

[Gab123]

Jews were already “scattered.” There were Jewish communities all around the Mediterranean world. The only thing that changed in 70 AD was that the Romans destroyed the Temple.

Realize that King David created the sacrificial center in Jerusalem to which he moved Ark of te Covenant. After Solomon’s Temple was built, sacrifices were only to be carried out there, thus when Solomon’s Temple was destroyed, sacrifices halted and were resumed only when the Second Temple was built, which was the temple at the time of Jesus. Jesus prophecies that the temple would be destroyed, and indeed The Second Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

After the destruction of the Second Temple, sacrifices were prohibited because there was no longer a Temple, which, accordingly to the Torah, was the only place allowed for sacrifices. Thus as I explained in the earlier post, Temple Judaism of the priesthood, altar, and sacrifice ended 2000 years ago.

The New Covenant was established by Jesus Christ, thus just like in the Old Testament, in the New Testament we have the same three levels of priesthood, namely 1) The common priesthood of the people (the laity); 2) The ministerial priesthood (clergy, I.e. priests, bishops, popes); and 3) The High Priest (JESUS CHRIST). Thus the Old Covenant was replaced by the New.
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[CathBoy1]

Show me in Catholic Teachings where it says we must respect any Jew who was responsible for the Murder of Messiah?

We are all responsible, through our sin, for the death of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Christian, Jew, Buddhist and Atheist alike.

That being said I asked the original question and through the comments throughout this thread I have discerned the answer for my question which was:

Is modern Judaism, the religion not the ethnicity, The same as Judaism 2000 years ago?

That was at the heart of my original question,
and in my honest opinion it is not, like the Protestants who are no longer Catholic, the Jews of today are no longer the same Jewish religion from ancient times, they are a new Jewish religion just as Protestantism is a newer Christian religion separate from Catholicism, this is only my opinion, not everyone has to agree with me, but the way I look at it the Judaism of today is comparable to Protestantism compared to Catholicism, Christian but not Catholic, modern Judaism is Jewish but not the same Jewish as traditional Judaism, I truly believe that Judaism as in second temple Judaism has been fulfilled by and evolved into (there is definitely a better term to use here but I’m at a loss of words) Christianity, therefore the Judaism that arose after the second temple is a new type of Judaism separate from what was before.

This is my honest opinion and I do not mean to come off as anti-semitic from my wording or my beliefs so if anything that I have written comes off that way I apologize.

 

[CathBoy1]

According to Jesus when speaking to none other than Pontius Pilate himself, the ones who turned Jesus over to Pilate are guiltier of a greater sin than Pilate

When He said that to Pilate, He only meant those present, He did not mean Jews of all time, like they were cursed forever, that is anti-semitic and absurd to suggest, it is a fact that Christ died for all, that means all of our sins put him on that cross, not just Jews and not just those who don’t believe in him, but all of us together put him on that cross period.

 

[CathBoy1]

Well said, amen brother.

 

[Pattylt]

therefore the Judaism that arose after the second temple is a new type of Judaism separate from what was before.

So the Judaism between the destruction of the first Temple until the second Temple was built weren’t the same as the Judaism after the second Temple existed either? Or is it possible that Judaism is the same as the period between destruction of the first and the building of the second? Neither the inter Temple period back then nor the post Temple Jews now were the same Jewish religion?

I agree that the practice of Temple Judaism is different from Post Temple Judaism but only as far as Temple practice goes. All other practices are the same. Same Sabbath, same High Holy Days, same minor holidays, same studying of Torah, same prayers. Calling it a different Judaism is a bit of a stretch. Calling it somewhat modified is more honest, IMHO.