A question about Purgatory.

[Lola_Hoi]

Greetings:

I read through a good portion of the replies to this question about purgatory and the forgiveness of sins.

Excuse my ignorance, but what about the victims of ones sins?

Lets get with the real world here.

Rape Victims
Cheating on your wife. The emotional pain of your partner and children
The emotional stress to family and friends of a murdered victim
Drunken drive kills a small child.
White-collar theft of senior citizens retirement savings.
And the list just goes on and on.

This is where I feel the teachings words of the Christian bible is missing something, and so do billions of other people on this planet.

I for one believe in action for an action in thought or deeds. (Karma)
Life has taught me this.

Is forgiveness of Sins the same as Gods Judgment in the book of life?

Peace be with you
Lola Hoi

 

[8eofilos]

Umm are you gonna do anything except just go on and on about how Purgatory is heretical? I dunno, like explain why every time judgement is metioned in the Scriptures, we read about being judged for our works? Or the prayers for the dead in 1 Maccabees?

Adam and Eve did not just eat a fruit…the disobeyed God. If you interpret the word of God with your human nature you will never understand God. I would love it to be a Purgatory but that is not true or eminent. You tell me that I go on about Heretical teachings but what do you want me to do? Accept them because they sound good to some people? I am not deceived by my human nature and I know that I am a sinner, but I don’t do Philosophical arguments about the word of God which is Absolute on every single line.The Catholic Church has been going back an forward on certain doctrines. Remember when the Pope knelled in front of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch and ask for forgiveness of all the mistakes the Catholic Church has made in the Past? Where is the Infallibility of the Pope?
When something I follow is proven wrong, then I don’t continue to follow it out of “Ego”. Ego destroys the soul of every human being and is the cause of all evil. That is how the devil works.
Show me how you decided and prove me with text that Purgatory exists and I will believe you…
If not, than I will not apologize for saying that it is Heretical. We most know what we believe in and I know Jesus Christ.
No offense but this is a fact.
God Bless everyone to open their hearts and stop seeking for windows,like lawyers, to enter the Kingdom of God.

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)
if you want more ask…

If there is another way to the Father (Purgatory),then Jesus is lying…What do you think?

 

[8eofilos]

Greetings:

I read through a good portion of the replies to this question about purgatory and the forgiveness of sins.

Excuse my ignorance, but what about the victims of ones sins?

Lets get with the real world here.

Rape Victims
Cheating on your wife. The emotional pain of your partner and children
The emotional stress to family and friends of a murdered victim
Drunken drive kills a small child.
White-collar theft of senior citizens retirement savings.
And the list just goes on and on.

This is where I feel the teachings words of the Christian bible is missing something, and so do billions of other people on this planet.

I for one believe in action for an action in thought or deeds. (Karma)
Life has taught me this.

Is forgiveness of Sins the same as Gods Judgment in the book of life?

Peace be with you
Lola Hoi

Sins can be forgiven if you truly regret an remorse and show it. The forgiveness of Jesus Christ will not come upon anyone who is not repenting from his heart. He knows, even if we don’t. But the sins of the others don’t really matter because you will not be judged for the sins of others but your own. He will not ask you why is your wife sinning, but what you are doing. He will not ask the thief about you but rather of his act.

 

[8eofilos]

Sins can be forgiven if you truly regret an remorse and show it. The forgiveness of Jesus Christ will not come upon anyone who is not repenting from his heart. He knows, even if we don’t. But the sins of the others don’t really matter because you will not be judged for the sins of others but your own. He will not ask you why is your wife sinning, but what you are doing. He will not ask the thief about you but rather of his act.

Something that is powerful to the subject is how the people that are being “hurt” in any way that you mention above, react. If they act vengefully than they will be judged equally in front of our Lord. If they choose to say “forgive them for they not know what they do”, then I think you know the answer. If you seek this world, you will receive it. If you seek the Lord Jesus Christ you will find Him. If you seek Purgatory, you will find it but to realize that it will not be temporary but eternal…

 

[Godfollower]

{Snipped for length}
“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)
if you want more ask…

If there is another way to the Father (Purgatory),then Jesus is lying…What do you think?

I think we’re simply not communicating well; we seem to be talking past each other. Here are some points that might help us to understand each other:

1. 
   *]We teach that Purgatory is only possible because of Jesus. Purgatory is not some way to go around Him (more on that below).
   *]Purgatory is not a third place in the afterlife. After the final judgment, everyone will go either to Heaven or to Hell.
   *]You and we obviously agree that we are sinners. Yet we both also have the hope of Heaven.
   *]We are unclean, yet nothing unclean can enter Heaven. It stands to reason, therefore, that those of us who enter Heaven will first be made clean.
   *]We call that event “Purgatory” – from purge, meaning to be made clean.
   *]Purgatory might last an instant; it might last a long time; it might not be subject to time at all. We don’t know, and it doesn’t matter. What matters is that we will be made clean before we enter Heaven.
   *]Purgatory might be painful; it might not. We don’t know, and it doesn’t matter. If having my sinful nature cured causes me pain (like the removal of a tumor), so be it; that’s a price I’m willing to pay if it means entering Heaven.
   
   As for Scriptural support for Purgatory, let’s examine the relevant passages:
   

   And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

   Matthew 12:32.
   Here we see Jesus postulate two diffferent places where sins can be forgiven: one “in this world” and one “in the world to come.” He goes on to say that the one unforgiveable sin cannot be forgiven in either place, but the corollary is clear: sins can be forgiven “in the world to come.” And we know that “the world to come” is not here on earth, because Jesus says that we will have life everlasting “in the world to come:”
   

   Who wondered the more, saying among themselves: Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking on them, saith: With men it is impossible; but not with God: for all things are possible with God. And Peter began to say unto him: Behold, we have left all things, and have followed thee. Jesus answering, said: Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time; houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting.

   Mark 10:26-30. See also Luke 20:27-40 (drawing a distinction between “this world” – where we marry but can die – and “that world” for those accounted worthy, where we shall not marry and will not die); and Ephesians 1:21 (noting that Jesus is raised up over every power, “not only in this world, but also in that which is to come”).
   

   And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more. And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away. And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write, for these words are most faithful and true.

   Revelation 21:1-5.
   
   Here we see heaven and earth having already (past tense!) passed away, and the voice from the throne saying “God shall [future tense!] wipe away all tears from their eyes.” So apparently some people are standing around after the end of time with tears in their eyes (so they aren’t in Heaven yet) but whose tears will be wiped away (so they aren’t in Hell, either). There is no mourning or pain in Heaven; there is no healing In Hell. These people in mourning whose tears will be wiped away are in Purgatory.
   

   For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

   1 Corinthians 3:11-15.
   
   Here we see St. Paul discussing what happens to people who build their lives on Jesus. This passage does not describe people who don’t follow Him; they aren’t building their lives on Jesus. Rather, this passage describes Christians: people who build their lives on the foundation of Jesus Christ. On the day of judgment, they will fall into two groups: those whose works abide, and those whose works burn. Those whose works abide will receive a reward (that is, Heaven); those whose works burn will still be saved, but as by fire. This is the Catholic understanding of Purgatory in a nutshell. Some people will be saved and go straight to Heaven; some will be saved but need to be cleansed before entering Heaven. The people going to Hell, of course, aren’t in this description at all, because they didn’t build their lives on Jesus.
   
   But this cleansing of sin is only possible because of Jesus. Purgatory doesn’t happen despite Jesus; it happens because of Him.

 

[Lola_Hoi]

HEAVEN, HELL, PURGATORY?

Simple and easy for our confused minds to understand. Too much thought makes matter too complicated… His ways and thoughts are higher then our. A polite way of God telling us to keep it simple.

Okay, I have to say that most discussions of the afterlife leave me cold. Our perspective is so narrow, based on very limited knowledge and our human frame.

 Let me illustrate with this story. Brother John  and Brother James were two monastery monks, good friends, but they disagreed on one issue: heaven. Brother John was sure it would be a time of eternal prayer, singing Gregorian chants, and meditation. Brother James said: "To heck with that. That's all we've been doing here on earth! In heaven we will have an eternal party, with good wine, good music and lots of fun!"  

  They finally decided to stop arguing, but when the first one died he would come back, provide the true situation in the life to come, and then they would know who won the argument. 

   Well, Brother John  did die, and as he promised he returned the next night in a dream. "Brother James," he said. "we both were wrong. But it would do no good to explain what eternal life is like, because the mortal mind could not comprehend it. It's on a different plane, a different dimension. But, be not afraid. Sincere Christians have nothing to fear."

   I wonder if we are biting off more than we can chew when we claim to know about eternal life. I'm content to believe in God and the promise that he will be with us always. As for purgatory, I guess I find it irrelevant. But I trust that the compassionate Lord will be just and merciful. That's all that I need to know. The rest is theological fluff.

 

[w_stewart]

Adam and Eve did not just eat a fruit…the disobeyed God. If you interpret the word of God with your human nature you will never understand God. I would love it to be a Purgatory but that is not true or eminent. You tell me that I go on about Heretical teachings but what do you want me to do? Accept them because they sound good to some people? I am not deceived by my human nature and I know that I am a sinner, but I don’t do Philosophical arguments about the word of God which is Absolute on every single line.The Catholic Church has been going back an forward on certain doctrines. Remember when the Pope knelled in front of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch and ask for forgiveness of all the mistakes the Catholic Church has made in the Past? Where is the Infallibility of the Pope?
When something I follow is proven wrong, then I don’t continue to follow it out of “Ego”. Ego destroys the soul of every human being and is the cause of all evil. That is how the devil works.
Show me how you decided and prove me with text that Purgatory exists and I will believe you…
If not, than I will not apologize for saying that it is Heretical. We most know what we believe in and I know Jesus Christ.
No offense but this is a fact.
God Bless everyone to open their hearts and stop seeking for windows,like lawyers, to enter the Kingdom of God.

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)
if you want more ask…

If there is another way to the Father (Purgatory),then Jesus is lying…What do you think?

The Orthodox do pray for the souls of their departed brethren but do not believe the existence of purgatory. Which souls are you praying for? Those in hell or in heaven?

 

[Faith_at_Large]

The simple answer here is there is no such thing as purgatory. Either one is saved or not. As far as cleansing goes, The blood of Jesus took care of that 2 thousand years ago. He didn’t come to save my flesh anyway. You see, my spirit is perfect in the sight of God as a result of the New Birth.

    Peace,   Golfjack

Hey, Golfjack, I had wondered where you had wandered off to. Evangelist is still spouting that spirit stuff too, but do you not believe in the resurrection of the body? Paul did, the the Pharisees did, the early Christians did, and Jesus not only believed it, He proved it by personal demonstration both with Himself and Lazarus - He is the Resurrection and the Life. Jesus came to save all of you, not just your spirit.

 

[Faith_at_Large]

PS, Be back tomorrow. It’s been nice discussing this topic with you. I was Catholic until 1979, but left when God spoke to my heart about salvation. My walk has been very interesting to say the least. I graduated from Rhema Bible Inst, where I met many nice Christians, and believe it or not some very dedicated Catholic priests. I believe they were Charismatic Catholic Priests, who believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, and believe to enter into heaven, one must be born again.

Good night my friend in Christ. Peace, Golfjack

Golfie all Catholics believe that we must be born again. And the Catholic Church firmly believes in the power of the Holy Spirit. It is sad that anyone could grow up as a Catholic and yet be so ignorant of their faith.

 

[golfjack]

Hi Faith, Is the dictator still at Spero? Why does the Bible in James 1:21 say that the Word is able to save our souls ( our minds , man’s intellect, emotions, and will)? You see, it is up to us to do this. God has done all He is ever going to do about saving us. You see, the way I think sometimes is certainly not a New Creature in Christ Jesus ( 2 Cor. 5:17). This is why I should renew my mind with God’s Word.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[8eofilos]

I think we’re simply not communicating well; we seem to be talking past each other. Here are some points that might help us to understand each other:

1. 
   *]We teach that Purgatory is only possible because of Jesus. Purgatory is not some way to go around Him (more on that below).
   *]Purgatory is not a third place in the afterlife. After the final judgment, everyone will go either to Heaven or to Hell.
   *]You and we obviously agree that we are sinners. Yet we both also have the hope of Heaven.
   *]We are unclean, yet nothing unclean can enter Heaven. It stands to reason, therefore, that those of us who enter Heaven will first be made clean.
   *]We call that event “Purgatory” – from purge, meaning to be made clean.
   *]Purgatory might last an instant; it might last a long time; it might not be subject to time at all. We don’t know, and it doesn’t matter. What matters is that we will be made clean before we enter Heaven.
   *]Purgatory might be painful; it might not. We don’t know, and it doesn’t matter. If having my sinful nature cured causes me pain (like the removal of a tumor), so be it; that’s a price I’m willing to pay if it means entering Heaven.
   
   As for Scriptural support for Purgatory, let’s examine the relevant passages:
   
   Matthew 12:32.
   Here we see Jesus postulate two diffferent places where sins can be forgiven: one “in this world” and one “in the world to come.” He goes on to say that the one unforgiveable sin cannot be forgiven in either place, but the corollary is clear: sins can be forgiven “in the world to come.” And we know that “the world to come” is not here on earth, because Jesus says that we will have life everlasting “in the world to come:”
   
   Mark 10:26-30. See also Luke 20:27-40 (drawing a distinction between “this world” – where we marry but can die – and “that world” for those accounted worthy, where we shall not marry and will not die); and Ephesians 1:21 (noting that Jesus is raised up over every power, “not only in this world, but also in that which is to come”).
   
   Revelation 21:1-5.
   
   Here we see heaven and earth having already (past tense!) passed away, and the voice from the throne saying “God shall [future tense!] wipe away all tears from their eyes.” So apparently some people are standing around after the end of time with tears in their eyes (so they aren’t in Heaven yet) but whose tears will be wiped away (so they aren’t in Hell, either). There is no mourning or pain in Heaven; there is no healing In Hell. These people in mourning whose tears will be wiped away are in Purgatory.
   
   1 Corinthians 3:11-15.
   
   Here we see St. Paul discussing what happens to people who build their lives on Jesus. This passage does not describe people who don’t follow Him; they aren’t building their lives on Jesus. Rather, this passage describes Christians: people who build their lives on the foundation of Jesus Christ. On the day of judgment, they will fall into two groups: those whose works abide, and those whose works burn. Those whose works abide will receive a reward (that is, Heaven); those whose works burn will still be saved, but as by fire. This is the Catholic understanding of Purgatory in a nutshell. Some people will be saved and go straight to Heaven; some will be saved but need to be cleansed before entering Heaven. The people going to Hell, of course, aren’t in this description at all, because they didn’t build their lives on Jesus.
   
   But this cleansing of sin is only possible because of Jesus. Purgatory doesn’t happen despite Jesus; it happens because of Him.

1. 
   You try hard but nothing again says about purgatory…
   
   The world to come is Heaven and not Purgatory, there are no 3 worlds but 2. As for the sin that can’t be forgiven, is because if you renounce the Holy Spirit and you die there is no returning after that. What we do on this world will be the reason to enter or not the Kingdom of God. Committing suicide for example is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit since our body is His Temple and we disgrace it.He doesn’t postulate anything like that. The same thing goes on with many different verses of scriptures today. Just because He says can’t be forgiven in this world or the other to come does not mean that other sins can be forgiven there…
   Just because the Scriptures say that Mary came with Jesus brothers, doesn’t mean that His brothers are Mary’s children…many people try to manipulate the Bible as Lawyers(I say again) but when you face the Judge-there is no way to trick Him or fool Him or any secret special window to enter the Kingdom of God.
   Sorry I can’t continue I have more to say about this but I have to leave right now…
   God Bless

 

[SHW]

Golfie all Catholics believe that we must be born again. And the Catholic Church firmly believes in the power of the Holy Spirit. It is sad that anyone could grow up as a Catholic and yet be so ignorant of their faith.

Yes, we are “born again” when we are baptized. To be born again means to be baptized (washing of water and the word). Baptism spiritually regenerates us. (Ephesians 5:26)

Titus 3:5 “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,”

Pax,
SHW

 

[Godfollower]

You try hard but nothing again says about purgatory…

The world to come is Heaven and not Purgatory, there are no 3 worlds but 2. As for the sin that can’t be forgiven, is because if you renounce the Holy Spirit and you die there is no returning after that. What we do on this world will be the reason to enter or not the Kingdom of God. Committing suicide for example is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit since our body is His Temple and we disgrace it.He doesn’t postulate anything like that. The same thing goes on with many different verses of scriptures today. Just because He says can’t be forgiven in this world or the other to come does not mean that other sins can be forgiven there…
Just because the Scriptures say that Mary came with Jesus brothers, doesn’t mean that His brothers are Mary’s children…many people try to manipulate the Bible as Lawyers(I say again) but when you face the Judge-there is no way to trick Him or fool Him or any secret special window to enter the Kingdom of God.
Sorry I can’t continue I have more to say about this but I have to leave right now…
God Bless

Did you even read my post before responding to it? I said quite clearly:

1. Purgatory is not a third place in the afterlife. After the final judgment, everyone will go either to Heaven or to Hell.

It’s just that some people will still have venial sins on their consciences, or will still be subject to sinful tendencies, and Jesus will cleanse us of our sins first. It might last less than an instant, or it might last a long time; we don’t know, and it doesn’t matter. The whole point is that Jesus will cleanse us of our sins before we enter Heaven. Purgatory is merely the name by which we call that cleansing.

 

[PJM]

=w_stewart;5143048]Did God tell you you could find salvation outside of the Catholic Church, thus, you left from it?

Dear friend in Christ,

Great care must be taken when expressing RCC Teaching.

We Catholics do not believe that one has to be a IPC [informed, practicing Catholic] in order to be saved!

What the RCC does teach as TRUTH, is that “all Salvation is mysteriously connected to the RCC” because She is the only TRUE Church. [Please note I did not say “valid.”]

But as the only Church founded by God, as the only Church in possession of the "key’s to the Kingdom of heaven, as the only Church with the Seven Sacraments, as the Church who wrote the bible and perserved it, the RCC in a necessary and essential conduit for all humanity to gain access to heaven.

Mark 9"
38 "John said to him, “Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, * and we forbade him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is for us. 41 For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward.”

I suspect dear friends that this passage expresses the Mind and Heart of God on this matter.

We are united by a common Baptism, and Triune Godhead, and in great part, the same bible.

Always with charity, truth and when possible with evidence of one’s position. That friends is how Catholic should share our faith.

 

[Chrysostom324]

To whoever posted about 1 Corinthians referring to Purgatory. I don’t think that it is a very good idea to try to base a biblical understanding of the purgatorial doctrine off of that passage. The context clearly refutes such an understanding, and no serious Catholic scholar holds to your interpretation, including:

Just about every Catholic Bible, mine being the St. Joseph’s Edition
J.A. Fitzmyer
Richard McBrien
New Jerome Commentary

jk

 

[Godfollower]

To whoever posted about 1 Corinthians referring to Purgatory. I don’t think that it is a very good idea to try to base a biblical understanding of the purgatorial doctrine off of that passage. The context clearly refutes such an understanding, and no serious Catholic scholar holds to your interpretation, including:

Just about every Catholic Bible, mine being the St. Joseph’s Edition
J.A. Fitzmyer
Richard McBrien
New Jerome Commentary

jk

I’m afraid you’re mistaken. The Catechism of the Catholic Church expressly cites 1 Corinthians 3:15 (the passage in question) as referring to Purgatory. St. Augustine said it referred to Purgatory. St. Ambrose said it referred to Purgatory. Catholic Answers says it refers to Purgatory. St. Thomas Aquinas says it refers to Purgatory.

I’d say that’s some pretty reputable scholarship.

 

[Shin]

I’m afraid you’re mistaken. The Catechism of the Catholic Church expressly cites 1 Corinthians 3:15 (the passage in question) as referring to Purgatory. St. Augustine said it referred to Purgatory. St. Ambrose said it referred to Purgatory. Catholic Answers says it refers to Purgatory. St. Thomas Aquinas says it refers to Purgatory.

I’d say that’s some pretty reputable scholarship.

It’s the jk part at the problem that’s the key, he had me going for an instant, but the clue is citing that list as one of ‘reputable scholarship’.

Ha! Hahahaha!

 

[Wolves]

I’m afraid you’re mistaken. The Catechism of the Catholic Church expressly cites 1 Corinthians 3:15 (the passage in question) as referring to Purgatory. St. Augustine said it referred to Purgatory. St. Ambrose said it referred to Purgatory. Catholic Answers says it refers to Purgatory. St. Thomas Aquinas says it refers to Purgatory.

I’d say that’s some pretty reputable scholarship.

He said “jk” in the end, as in he was just kidding.

 

[Godfollower]

It’s the jk part at the problem that’s the key, he had me going for an instant, but the clue is citing that list as one of ‘reputable scholarship’.

Ha! Hahahaha!

Oh, well; everyone has to fall for something like this some time.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

The thief was forgiven n the cross. He had a clean slate. For Purgatory to be warranted, he would have to havoe unforgiven venial sin, correct? All his sins were forgiven. No unfoegiven sin means no Purgatory (Correct me if I am wrong!)

It is not the case that “no unforgiven sin means no Purgatory.” It doesn’t work that way.

If one has a mortal sin, and it is forgiven, one is ultimately Heaven-bound, but one must endure some of Paul’s 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 fire.

By indulgences, this burning in Purgatory may be reduced or eliminated. I’m not sure that there is an ultimate doctrinal distinction between payment of temoral punishment on Earth and indulgences granted. Note well: The thieves wouldn’t have been “whispering sweet nothings” between each other and Christ. The Good Thief would have been YELLING to the other thief and to Christ. So, the audience (including the Gospel’s Sacred Author’s source) would have heard the astonishing words of the Good Thief accpting his punishment as just, and humbly attesting to Christ’s goodness. I agree with the poster up above – crucifixion is punishment enough for a thief!!! And, instead of being angry, he humbly supports Christ (after Peter and the other Apostles abandoned Him!). So, Christ to achieve perfect justice declares his – the Good Thief’s – temporal punishment remitted.

So, the man’s humble acceptance of his fate and honoring of Christ = “Baptism of Desire” or “Baptism of Blood.” No Hell for him, now. And then when he suffers crucifixion and, instead of being defiant, he YELLS OUT his astonishing public defense of Christ, Christ converts his crucifixion with Christ into the man’s temporal punishment, by declaring it to be so. So, he earns Heaven immediately by His crucifixion.

It all hangs together.