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Sonic
Guest
You said it… not me. Unfortunately, that’s not what I was saying.
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cathgal
Guest
Don’t put words in my mouth.
I never say it was God’s will. I say He allows it.
If God didn’t allow it, then why Tiller died?
Why do people have a hard time understanding permissiveness and will.
A teenager hangs around w/ a group of teenagers who usually drink alcohol for diversion. The parents know this but don’t think it would affect their teenager because their teenager is a good kid. One day, the teenager is killed in an auto accident along with some of the drinking teenagers.
Does this tragedy happens because the parents will it or because they allow their teenager to hang out w/ this group, and so accident is bound to happen one day?
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Sonic
Guest
I think there are a lot of people on here misunderstanding each other and themselves. It’s part of the limitation of language. A lot of times we mean one thing and it comes out another way. It’s finding the right words to explain the right thing the right way that can be very difficult… especially if we’ve never done it before.
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cathgal
Guest
Where did you get the interpretation that God is ok with anyone who is killed??I have read a number of times today that God is ok with this murder because He allowed it. If I am misunderstanding these comments, I apologize.
If I am interpreting them correctly, I find it so offensive. God does not agree with or accept everything He allows to happen.
Did God want Amish children to die at that school in PA? Is God ok with people who kill entire families?
I have read a number of times today that God must have wanted Tiller dead yesterday because He allowed this, & it is just wrong.
Daughter needs computer to work on essay, but please consider this logic is flawed…
Whatever happens to free will of the murderer?
Don’t get mixed up with God’s permissiveness and the killer’s free will.
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Sonic
Guest
I don’t think we’re too far from each other on thinking. We’re both just trying to help each other say something in a better way. At least, that’s how I’m looking at it.
Just so you know, I’m not arguing with you and appreciate your conversation.
I’ll just quote JrEducation again, because I think he his stating things better than I am. I think you may also be saying the same thing. If I’m wrong than let me know, and which points you disagree with.
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pnewton
Guest
Except…
No one here, not one person is suggesting that we overthrow the law and allow free hunting on abortionist or other evil people. This is a strawman I am sure we will see this used a lot after this incident. The post may have been deleted, but I have not seen one person advocating violence. It is a shame that those that want to exaggerate (or lie) and accuse prolife people of advocating violence start here.
It is not advocating violence, a slippery slope or any other such rhetoric that some here do not mourn this death. I for one can not manufacture an artificial sorrow. I didn’t know it was a requirement of the law.
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Wowbagger
Guest
I quite agree with the first and the third, but, fraternally, I question the second. According to our faith, if a man shows up at your house with the intent to kill you, you have the right to apply all necessary force–up to and including lethal force–to prevent him from succeeding. This operates under the principle of double effect: as the Catechism writes, borrowing from Aquinas, “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.” (CCC 2263)The bottom line is that there are two situations that Catholics must embrace, maybe a third.
- What Dr. Tiller did was murder and a violation of human rights against the unborn. There are no other ways to look at this.
- The gunman who shot Dr. Tiller has no more right to take someone’s life than Dr. Tiller hard. There is no other way to look at this either. Our faith is not about an eye for an eye.
- The last reality that we must embrace is mercy. Gold’s mercy is infinite. We have a duty to pray for Dr. Tiller’s soul and for the conversion of his killer.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Similiarly, if a gunman comes to your house with the intent to kill your children, you may apply necessary (perhaps lethal) force to prevent that, as well. Similarly, if you encounter a gunman on the street who intends to mug and kill a hobo, you have a right and duty to defend the hobo, too. If you are at a friend’s house and that friend tries to shoot his own children, you have the right and duty to apply necessary force–up to and including lethal force–to act in the child’s self-defense. If you are a spy operating behind enemy lines and you see a duly appointed local law enforcement officer preparing to execute a Jewish baby, you have the right and duty to act in the child’s self-defense–and, because local law is against you, this will very possibly (and regrettably) mean no less than lethal force. If you are a citizen of a nation in which you see a duly appointed local law enforcement officer preparing to execute a Jewish baby, you still have the right and duty to act in the child’s self-defense, just as the spy would. If you are a citizen of a nation where you see a private citizen legally preparing to carry out the execution of a Jewish baby, you have the right and duty to act in the child’s self-defense. If you are a citizen of a nation where you see a private citizen legally preparing to carry out the mass execution of Jew babies, you have the right and duty to act in the children’s self-defense. And, finally, if you are a citizen of a nation where you see a private citizen legally preparing to carry out the mass execution of unborn babies, Jewish or otherwise, you have the right and duty to act in the children’s self-defense.
This does not mean that Mr. Roeder’s assassination was legitimate. While defense of the innocent is the right and duty of all Catholics, the Church holds that five conditions must be met before violence or lethal force may be permitted in defending against local civil law:
CCC 2243 said:
Those conditions were clearly not all met in this case, and so Mr. Roeder’s decision to take the life of Mr. Tiller was illegitimate and immoral. However, I take issue with the claim that Mr. Roeder was unequivocally in the wrong. It seems to me that he was not. It appears to me that the teachings of the Church (as well as sound common sense) clearly illustrate that, in slightly different circumstances, in slightly different times, conducted in the right mindset, Mr. Roeder’s actions could have been condoned. Dr. Tiller of course had the inalienable right to life, and our Church is not about “an eye for an eye,” but the Holy Church does show us how Mr. Tiller’s life could nonetheless have justifiably been taken under the related principles of double effect, the right to self-defense, and the right to armed resistance. Armed resistance in such cases is not vigilantism; it is a defense of natural human law against those in power who assail it. It is a restoration of the fundamental rights upon which all valid civil law, all legitimate civil authority, is founded.
I do not condone Mr. Roeder’s actions, nor am I advocating further acts of violence against abortionists. Such acts clearly fall short of the high standards the Church sets for such acts of armed resistance, and will undoubtedly cause great setbacks for the anti-abortion movement with few repercussions for the pro-abortion-rightsers. I do, however, object to those who condemn Mr. Roeder with a too-broad brush, or who equate his unjustified killing with the brutal murders which provoked it.
I am, as ever, open to fraternal correction by my brothers and sisters here at CAF. Because this is a fairly radical position by mainstream American standards, and I am not comfortable with holding radical positions, I would be grateful to anyone who is able to show me that I have gone wrong somewhere in my chain of reasoning or in my understanding of Church teachings. (I would appreciate it, however, if responses consisted of more than, “You’re an example of everything that’s wrong with the anti-abortion movement!” or “I am shocked and horrified that anyone who professes to be Catholic could say such a thing!” I am open to convincing, but such statements are unhelpful.)
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cathgal
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I see nothing disagreeable.I don’t think we’re too far from each other on thinking. We’re both just trying to help each other say something in a better way. At least, that’s how I’m looking at it.
Just so you know, I’m not arguing with you and appreciate your conversation.
I’ll just quote JrEducation again, because I think he his stating things better than I am. I think you may also be saying the same thing. If I’m wrong than let me know, and which points you disagree with.
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Norminha
Guest
Well, I’m not a theologian but a simple faithful follower of the teachings of my Master and Holy Mother Church. I did not misunderstand the expression **“what goes around comes around.” **
Are you aware of the many paradoxes contained in the Holy Bible? Paradox, not contradiction as God is all perfection, can’t never contradict Himself.
“**Who kills with the sword, dies by the sword” **is Jesus’ famous paradoxical statements addressed to His beloved emotional Peter. He did not mean, that Peter will die by the sword.
Moving forward, **an observation than a condemnation **I never presumed it was a condemnation since only God has that right, not us. However, the statement “what goes around comes around” I clearly understand that someone was happy for the misfortune of the title discussed here. This is the statement I questioned by stating "certainly, you do not mean that? and elaborated on the new command Jesus left for us, to love one another as He has loved us. Our Blessed Lord never rejoiced in the face of adversity, on the contrary, He reminded us to love our enemies, to do good to those who persecute us. I’m a Priest For Life volunteer, I defend the defenseless in a peaceful manner -with prayer and fasting, never with violence.
That’s all I meant and I went straight to my room to weep and pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy for the souls of the victim and the perpetrator. **Jesus commands me to be merciful even to the abortionists. He’s our just Judge. ** I never was acting out of any passion; if I did, please forgive me.
We die as we live it. ? Sometimes. I am poor sinner but I am doing my best to keep God’s grace and I look the intercession of our Blessed Mother and St. Joseph, to be at my side at the most important moment of my life -my death, receiving the last sacrament and not dying as I’ve lived. Only God knows the depths of each soul and He’s all Mercy!!
By the way, to admonish the sinner is one of the acts of mercy.
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Norminha
Guest
Well, I’m not a theologian but a simple faithful follower of the teachings of my Master and Holy Mother Church. I did not misunderstand the expression **“what goes around comes around.” **
Are you aware of the many paradoxes contained in the Holy Bible? Paradox, not contradiction as God is all perfection, can’t never contradict Himself.
“**Who kills with the sword, dies by the sword” **is Jesus’ famous paradoxical statement addressed to His beloved emotional Peter. He did not mean, that Peter will die by the sword.
Moving forward, **an observation than a condemnation **I never presumed it was a condemnation since only God has that right, not us. However, the statement “what goes around comes around” I clearly understand that someone was happy for the misfortune of the title discussed here. This is the statement I questioned by stating "certainly, you do not mean that? and elaborated on the new command Jesus left for us, to love one another as He has loved us. Our Blessed Lord never rejoiced in the face of adversity, on the contrary, He reminded us to love our enemies, to do good to those who persecute us. I’m a Priest For Life volunteer, I defend the defenseless in a peaceful manner -with prayer and fasting, never with violence.
That’s all I meant and I went straight to my room to weep and pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy for the souls of the victim and the perpetrator. Jesus commands me to be merciful even to the abortionists. He’s our just Judge. I never was acting out of any passion; if I did, please forgive me.
We die as we live it. ? Sometimes. I am poor sinner but I am doing my best to keep God’s grace and I look the intercession of our Blessed Mother and St. Joseph, to be at my side at the most important moment of my life -my death, receiving the last sacrament and not dying as I’ve lived. Only God knows the depths of each soul and He’s all Mercy!!
By the way, to admonish the sinner is one of the acts of mercy.
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aggiecatholic05
Guest
well what they do is inflamatory and it is a mockery of justice to sugarcoat it. and if they are insulted by the truth of what they do/are then good-you may get more flies with honey than vinager, but the bug zapper gets the most(not sure how it applies but i like the saying)
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Norminha
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JReducation
Thank you!!
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scott1228
Guest
I agree that this is a terrible setback to the prolife movement.
My question is… what kind of church would accept this person as a member?
That to me is the sign of the problem with the modern world. The world is not happy to tolerate the sin, it welcomes it into the fold, blesses it, and calls it good.
My question is… what kind of church would accept this person as a member?
That to me is the sign of the problem with the modern world. The world is not happy to tolerate the sin, it welcomes it into the fold, blesses it, and calls it good.
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tampagrl
Guest
I can understand the perspective of “Wowbagger”'s argument, and while I can admit to feeling like this myself, I keep coming back to the same thoughts. Those thoughts, however simplistic, are that by taking this man’s life, he has prevented Mr. Tiller from an earthly repentance, and perhaps damned him to Hell. But the fact that he was in his church - is it possible that Tiller was having some internal battle about the heinous nature of his “busines”? We don’t know. Is it possible that Tiller may have come to a point in his life where he would have turned away from this sin? We’ll never know now.
Forgive me if these points have already been made; I didn’t read all 30pgs of this thread.
In my sinful heart, upon hearing about this shooting, I remember thinking, “live by the sword, die by the sword! Serves him right! I hope he felt every pain those babies felt!” …but then I thought about his wife, his children, his grandchildren…what about them? Do we honestly expect them to cry out, “Oh Thank you, dear pro-lifers, I see the error of his ways”? No. They’re going to do the exact opposite. I submit, they’ll make him a hero, a martyr. And now, not only has Tiller not had the opportunity for repentance, his entire extended family - the children & grandchildren (aka “the future”) - are all but lost to us. So many hearts are hardening in his family and across the “pro-choice” community.
We just took that bullet right along with Tiller.
Forgive me if these points have already been made; I didn’t read all 30pgs of this thread.
Here’s where I respectfully disagree. Because it’s not slightly different times or circumstances. The circumstances were what they were. He was gunned down. He was visciously murdered just like he visciously murdered the unborn. In order to live w/himself, I’m sure Tiller convinced himself he was doing these families and these babies a “favor” by saving them from a life deemed not worth living. I cringe at the irony that Roeder’s actions have done the exact same thing.
In my sinful heart, upon hearing about this shooting, I remember thinking, “live by the sword, die by the sword! Serves him right! I hope he felt every pain those babies felt!” …but then I thought about his wife, his children, his grandchildren…what about them? Do we honestly expect them to cry out, “Oh Thank you, dear pro-lifers, I see the error of his ways”? No. They’re going to do the exact opposite. I submit, they’ll make him a hero, a martyr. And now, not only has Tiller not had the opportunity for repentance, his entire extended family - the children & grandchildren (aka “the future”) - are all but lost to us. So many hearts are hardening in his family and across the “pro-choice” community.
We just took that bullet right along with Tiller.
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Irish_Kathy
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If only more people would take stories like this one wpxi.com/news/19625212/detail.html less women would be choosing to have late term abortions or, for that matter, perhaps less abortions of any kind.
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matt1985
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I think that what the murderer did was horrible. I don’t believe it is an act of terrorism however. It is vigalianteism. Terrorism requires a more rational purpitrator. This man is a lunatic. He had a history of mental problems.
What we should not allow is for liberals to pin the blame on us for this act. They’re trying very hard to say that people who even call abortion murder is responsible for this. They are exploiting the Tiller tragedy and should be ashamed of them selves.
What we should not allow is for liberals to pin the blame on us for this act. They’re trying very hard to say that people who even call abortion murder is responsible for this. They are exploiting the Tiller tragedy and should be ashamed of them selves.
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NM2
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They support abortion; obviously they have no shame.
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masondoggy
Guest
You’ve just summed up very well what has been going through my mind today. I’m really torn about this.
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IrishRose
Guest
"… Are there no prison, no workhouses? … I help to support the establishments I have mentioned-they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.’ " Ebenezer Scrooge “A Christmas Carol”
You are correct, starvation in the U.S. is uncommon, hunger is not (or, as the Bush administration called it “food insecurity”) . The existing programs help, but do not cure the problem - they prevent starvation, but not hunger. It is not known how many children will be permanently damaged by poor nutrition.
frac.org/html/hunger_in_the_us/hunger_index.html
However, at least 18,000 Americans die every year because they have no access to medical care. A couple years ago a child in Baltimore died because he had an infected tooth. His mother didn’t have the $80 to pay a dentist to treat him. The infiection spread to his brain and he died (after running up a $250,000 bill at the hospital that admitted him when the problem became medical).
The “pro-life” govenor (who also can be very pious about what a fine Christian he is) in my state just made massive cuts to the medical programs so more children and adults can go without necessary medical care. And all because conservatives think tax cuts for the wealthy are more important than programs that help people. Like so many prolifers the governor loses all interest in a child’s well being once it’s born. Then they’re on their own and if they made the mistake of being born into a poor family, it’s just their tough luck.
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DawnInTexas
Guest
We can act respectful, but there is nothing at all respectful about abortion.
We need to shout from the rooftops!
Science and logic is the argument of Atheists. That is only one iota of God’s Gifts-God’s Grace! Science and logic are only part of the whole.
We must be strong! Too much Political Correctness has gotten us where we are. Stepped all over- 48 million + dead.
"I am not called to be successful,
I am called to be faithful."
-Mother Teresa of Calcutta
Let’s all be Faithful.
St. Paul, be our Guide!
+Peace in Christ,
-Dawn
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