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Beau_Ouiville
Guest
Frank Sinatra’s mother had two convictions for performing* illegal* abortions and was buried after a Catholic ceremony in 1977. So let’s not judge.
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greg_b
Guest
I find this very interesting… some people here complaining about the government going to label them as terrorists because of the actions of a few lone nuts… well, where were some of you when these same things happened to Muslims who were targeted and mistrusted because of terrorist acts committed by overseas groups like Al-Qaeda? I also warned people about Nazi-style government actions like Homeland Security and the PATRIOT act. Well, my friends, some people today are now getting a taste of their own bitter medicine, and don’t expect one ounce of sympathy from those like me who point out these double edge swords all the time.
PS And just some good common sense advice on abortion and language: While we may objectively understand abortion as murder, it seems some people here also don’t seem to understand that it’s not viewed that way by most pro-choicers. The majority of people are not murderers, and the majority of pro-choicers view abortion not as murder or even killing, but as an extension that is terminated before it becomes human. So if you wanna convince choicers to switch views, don’t act like a fool and assume they are pro-murder or view it as such. You are just making yourself sound like an idiot, and you probably are one if you hold to that.
PS And just some good common sense advice on abortion and language: While we may objectively understand abortion as murder, it seems some people here also don’t seem to understand that it’s not viewed that way by most pro-choicers. The majority of people are not murderers, and the majority of pro-choicers view abortion not as murder or even killing, but as an extension that is terminated before it becomes human. So if you wanna convince choicers to switch views, don’t act like a fool and assume they are pro-murder or view it as such. You are just making yourself sound like an idiot, and you probably are one if you hold to that.
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pnewton
Guest
As this is a Catholic site you are posting on, there is no reason to dance Truth. To assume people would use the same language in dealing with non-Catholics or in a non-Catholic setting makes no sense. The *Catholic *position on abortion is quite clear. It is called an objective mortal sin under the “Thou shalt not murder.”
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Roetting
Guest
I really struggle with issues like this. Dr. Tiller (if you can actually be a doctor who MURDERS babies) made a living off killing innocent children. How can I feel sorry about his death? Do I feel sorry that Hitler died? Stalin? This man was given plenty of years to repent and find God. It is his fault alone if he did not come to terms with Christ. People prayed for him constantly.
Remember…we should not kill the innocent or the righteous. Clearly this man was neither no matter what anyone says. He MURDERED babies for a living. No one can argue that.
I hear people ask “What would Jesus do”? Well…for one…Jesus would not abort babies.
I am really struggling with how to accept this news. How can we say killing is never a solution? The Cathechism does not outlaw the death penalty. Are we not suppose to protect the most innocent and righteous at all costs?
Wars happen…we even have a JUST WAR doctrine. Muder and killing are not the same thing. My father fought in Vietnam and most likely took the lives of enemy soldiers. Someone could make the case my father was a murderer since none of those soldiers ever personally wronged my father. Are soldiers who kill murderers?
Did not God bless David when he shot his slingshot and slew Goliath? That was a killing
Did not God bless the army of Moses when he held his hands high in prayer?
Are we saying that things in the Old Testament no longer have a place in our faith?
We can not be pacifist in our faith…we must stand strong. I’ll turn the cheek and allow someone to slap it…but I’m not going to turn my check and have someone shoot me or my family.
Please help me understand…please.
Please pray that I may find Christ’s understanding to this issue.
God Bless and Thank you,
God took the lives of the 1st born Egyptians, he wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah. Does not the Bible say, “whoever sheds the blood of man, so shall his blood be shed by man”?
Remember…we should not kill the innocent or the righteous. Clearly this man was neither no matter what anyone says. He MURDERED babies for a living. No one can argue that.
I hear people ask “What would Jesus do”? Well…for one…Jesus would not abort babies.
I am really struggling with how to accept this news. How can we say killing is never a solution? The Cathechism does not outlaw the death penalty. Are we not suppose to protect the most innocent and righteous at all costs?
Wars happen…we even have a JUST WAR doctrine. Muder and killing are not the same thing. My father fought in Vietnam and most likely took the lives of enemy soldiers. Someone could make the case my father was a murderer since none of those soldiers ever personally wronged my father. Are soldiers who kill murderers?
Did not God bless David when he shot his slingshot and slew Goliath? That was a killing
Did not God bless the army of Moses when he held his hands high in prayer?
Are we saying that things in the Old Testament no longer have a place in our faith?
We can not be pacifist in our faith…we must stand strong. I’ll turn the cheek and allow someone to slap it…but I’m not going to turn my check and have someone shoot me or my family.
Please help me understand…please.
Please pray that I may find Christ’s understanding to this issue.
God Bless and Thank you,
God took the lives of the 1st born Egyptians, he wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah. Does not the Bible say, “whoever sheds the blood of man, so shall his blood be shed by man”?
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sweetcharity
Guest
I know the discussion is over the murder, but I can’t get past knowing that the man was considered an upstanding member of his church.
My question is, what kind of church accepts this man as an usher in their church?
I can’t being to tell you how disgusting I find that idea, that he could be embraced by a christian church. Let him come in an worship, as his soul needed that, but don’t give him a position of representation, which is what an usher is. An usher is the first person who greats you when you walk into the church. He should be a man of character, not a man with blood on his hands.
My question is, what kind of church accepts this man as an usher in their church?
I can’t being to tell you how disgusting I find that idea, that he could be embraced by a christian church. Let him come in an worship, as his soul needed that, but don’t give him a position of representation, which is what an usher is. An usher is the first person who greats you when you walk into the church. He should be a man of character, not a man with blood on his hands.
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Jimsdun
Guest
And just at the time when polls now show that a majority of Americans are now pro-life. This is not coincidental, it is Satan’s doing. Now hopefully, that plane crash in the South Atlantic might draw people’s attention away from this tragic incident.
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wanner47
Guest
:banghead:
First of all, God is the author of life and only He can take it away. It is not our place to be God’s executioner. Vengeance is His, *not *ours.
I’m going to put the following in big bold letters so it’s eminently clear.
THE JUST WAR DOCTRINE IS NOT APPLICABLE TO INDIVIDUALS.
Secondly,
This is what the Catechism says regarding war:
All peace efforts have NOT failed. Tiller was potentially about to lose his medical license, and that would have stopped his killing – perhaps permanently.
Tiller was not a military force, nor was his killer.
This condition has not been qualified. We are still working towards converting hearts and were succeeding pretty well, judging by the latest survey – at least we were until this happened.
Successful in that Tiller is dead, but an UTTER FAILURE in terms of advancing the cause of the pro-life movement. No children have been saved that we know of, and a new abortionist is taking over his clinic.
See above.
However, ALL of the conditions must be fulfilled to be considered a just war. Not all of them are in this case.
So please please please STOP saying that Tiller’s killer was justified due to the just war doctrine. It is NOT true.
Jesus said "Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."
He did NOT say, “Shoot your enemies in the face while they’re at a church.”
If Tiller had been in the act of aborting a baby at that very moment, then maybe, MAYBE I could see some sort of legitimate defense of life going on (but it would still be a stretch). But Tiller was not. He was at church. For all we know, he could have had a miraculous moment of repentance and conversion during the service, and decided to close his clinic. Now, we’ll never know.
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wanner47
Guest
Reformation Lutheran Church, where Tiller was a member, is in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.
reformation-lutheran.org/aboutus/index.html
This is the ELCA’s statement about abortion:
This statement is one of the reasons I left the ELCA and converted to Catholicism. I thought it was disgustingly wishy-washy.
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Roetting
Guest
Joanna,
I’m not saying that the Just War doctrine justifies his death. I was saying that as a Church, founded by Christ, we do have a doctrine in our faith that allows for killing in certain circumstances. This was pointed out so that all those who say killing is never justified may actually see that, yes, in certain extreme cases is allowed.
I also asked for help in understanding…I did not need someone to lecture me and treat me like an idiot. I asked for help and for the most part you did but I did not need to be lectured like a child.
My brother is a police officer. If he has to take somone’s life to save his own or another person’s—is he a killer? Has he offended God? Has he broken the 5th commandment?
Thank God that during my father’s 31 years as a police officer he never had to. I would not want people on here to call him a killer.
I’m not saying that the Just War doctrine justifies his death. I was saying that as a Church, founded by Christ, we do have a doctrine in our faith that allows for killing in certain circumstances. This was pointed out so that all those who say killing is never justified may actually see that, yes, in certain extreme cases is allowed.
I also asked for help in understanding…I did not need someone to lecture me and treat me like an idiot. I asked for help and for the most part you did but I did not need to be lectured like a child.
My brother is a police officer. If he has to take somone’s life to save his own or another person’s—is he a killer? Has he offended God? Has he broken the 5th commandment?
Thank God that during my father’s 31 years as a police officer he never had to. I would not want people on here to call him a killer.
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greg_b
Guest
“Oh how wonderful! A plane crashed! I am so happy a plane crashed!”
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tampagrl
Guest
I soooo understand where you’re coming from but I think you’re mixing things up a bit.
as I understand this issue: Your rights end where mine begin. We have laws in this country - we like some, we don’t like some. As gut-wrenthching as it is to know what goes on inside those clinics, I can’t come onto someone’s private property and w/ deadly force, stop an abortionist from taking the life of a child inside the womb of his/her mother while the mother is inside that office on said private property.
From your examples: Soldiers in battle are engaged in fighting; thus, they must protect themselves and if they can do so w/o killing, they should, if they can’t, there is no moral wrongdoing. That is not the same as breaking a law.
In regards to the death penalty, I’ve always understood the Church’s position to be that it should be avoided if the society is safe from the criminal. Hence, if the criminal can be placed in prison for life, then killing him isn’t justified. When we take it upon ourselves - this vigilanteism (sp?) - we condemn the soul! This is very serious stuff here.
We assure that the person will have no chance to beg God’s mercy for their sins. Pergatory is not a second chance. It is for those who are meant to be with God in Heaven. Was Tiller? We won’t ever know. Obviously God is not bound by His own laws - in His Great Mercy, maybe at the moment before his soul left his body, Tiller asked for forgiveness and received it. But we will never know. God save us from such a fate!
We must obey the laws, or work tirelessly to change them if they are morally wrong, such as with abortion. This whole thing makes me so sick. I mourn for those precious babies, for those women who thought that was a right thing to do, and now, I’m conflicted in mourning for this Tiller, who I want to hate for what he did.
But I want mercy for myself when it’s my time, therefore, I will pray for Tiller. Maybe God will spare him from eternal damnation.
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wanner47
Guest
It wasn’t just you; it was the others on this thread (in addition to you) who have made the same claim.
I’m assuming your brother doesn’t go around shooting people he doesn’t like. If he does, yes, he’s very wrong and has broken the 5th commandment. If he shoots people who are in the act of causing harm to others, then no, he’s not. He’s also legitimate authority and and I’m assuming he uses that legitimate authority appropriately, and only shoots when he has no other choice. Tiller’s killer had other choices.
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Wowbagger
Guest
I hope you don’t mind that I dialed back your ridiculously large font in quoting this.
Quite true. The just war doctrine does not give an individual any authority to act contrary to civil law.
The doctrine of armed resistance (CCC 2243), however, does. I don’t know why so few people seem to be even aware of this doctrine.
The conditions for armed resistance have not been met, so the killing of Mr. Tiller was still illegitimate, but, whoa nellie, I think you’re slamming down awfully hard on others when you aren’t really quite on base with the Church teaching yourself. No person is beholden to a law that prohibits him from defending the fundamental rights of the innocent. Such laws are contrary to the natural law and are null and void, and any authority that purports to uphold such “laws” is an illegitimate authority. The only thing restraining our action in such a case is prudence. You go on to list several perfectly valid prudential reasons why we shouldn’t go around killing abortionists, and in that respect you’re quite right, but your core principle seems to be that Catholics must never ever break a law or commit an act of violence, even against a law that results in millions and millions of murders. And that, from my understanding, is not Catholic thought at all.
No offense intended, of course; I just think you’re off base, and should perhaps dial back your tone (and your font size
).
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peacefulwarrior
Guest
How sad is it, that you are happy that a plane crash has diverted the attention. Just tell that to the families that you are happy about the crash. 
What, this was is unconditionally murder. Whats even worse is that tiller at a church. A murder took place in a sanctuary. Which makes this matter even worse. The murderer deserves everything that he is going to recieve. Nobody can be judge jury and executioner.
What, this was is unconditionally murder. Whats even worse is that tiller at a church. A murder took place in a sanctuary. Which makes this matter even worse. The murderer deserves everything that he is going to recieve. Nobody can be judge jury and executioner.
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cathgal
Guest
":
Defending oneself against an aggressor is not revenge.
An eye for an eye usually mean revenge.
Defending oneself against an aggressor is not revenge.
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DeoSalvatoreMeo
Guest
I misunderstood your post, at first. I seriously thought you were referring to God’s judgment of Tiller.
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sweetcharity
Guest
Thank you, wanner for your reply. I’m assuming the abortions that Dr. T preformed were not all due to forceably conceived pregnancies. It would seem that he was breaking the rules of his own church.
So I’m still in wonderment at how anyone could worship at a church that allowed him to be an usher.
Please note that I have no negative feelings about him attending the chuch, however, I do have an issue with the church as it appears that no one, or at least no one with authority, objected to his public representation of that church.
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wanner47
Guest
I was quite clear that the just war doctrine is not applicable in this instance – specifically, Tiller’s murder. I was not commenting on other situations that in which Catholics may find themselves (e.g., Nazi Germany).I hope you don’t mind that I dialed back your ridiculously large font in quoting this.
Quite true. The just war doctrine does not give an individual any authority to act contrary to civil law.
The doctrine of armed resistance (CCC 2243), however, does. I don’t know why so few people seem to be even aware of this doctrine.
The conditions for armed resistance have not been met, so the killing of Mr. Tiller was still illegitimate, but, whoa nellie, I think you’re slamming down awfully hard on others when you aren’t really quite on base with the Church teaching yourself. No person is beholden to a law that prohibits him from defending the fundamental rights of the innocent. Such laws are contrary to the natural law and are null and void, and any authority that purports to uphold such “laws” is an illegitimate authority. The only thing restraining our action in such a case is prudence. You go on to list several perfectly valid prudential reasons why we shouldn’t go around killing abortionists, and in that respect you’re quite right, but your core principle seems to be that Catholics must never ever break a law or commit an act of violence, even against a law that results in millions and millions of murders. And that, from my understanding, is not Catholic thought at all.
No offense intended, of course; I just think you’re off base, and should perhaps dial back your tone (and your font size
I’m just getting really, really tired of all the “Tiller’s killer was justified because of the just war doctrine!11!!” posts on this thread.
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wanner47
Guest
I agree with you, but honestly, no one in the ELCA batted an eye because the ELCA is just fine with abortion. It’s even covered by their employee health plan.
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Wowbagger
Guest
Oh, okay. Sorry I misread you.
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