ABP Vigano writes third letter

[pnewton]

McCarrick should have been removed years ago. A system that allowed him to carry on is pretty rotten.

Or such a system is imperfect, possible even seriously flawed. That is the reason for the synod next year.

Everything is fine with Mass?

Yes, that is sort of what I said. Everything was fine with our Mass. Jesus was present. Most Catholics neither hate on the Pope or think the sky is falling. Then there are those who have studied Church history. Church history, like all history, lends perspective and tempers overreaction.

That’s simply not true. Many careerists today would NEVER write something like Vigano did. Yet one only need open a Bible to the Letters of Paul to see such direct writings.

The New Testament is not relevant to what I was saying. Most bishops understand their writings among themselves are not sacred scripture. Even then, Paul only “raised his voice” once.

 

[anon10271182]

So destructive, yes. And all for their unnatural and depraved lust.

 

[commenter]

commenter:

we should not allow the Church’s enemies to blow this out of proportion or control the response

Whom are you talking about?

There are some rock-solid outfits that are doing a solid job of laying out the Church’s ills when it comes to not cleaning up sexual abuse.

I have repeatedly supported ++Vigano and EWTN, among responsible others, who have aired this issue.

I am a retired child abuse investigator, not minimizing this at all.

But many irresponsible other media are using this issue to hammer the only serious opposition to abortion, the Catholic Church; as they did in Ireland. The great majority of US institutional cover up of abuse occurred in public schools, Public foster care and residential services, Protestant churches, etc. The Church should have been better. But we were equally bad.

The scandal of mass acceptance of abortion, among Catholics and others, is the bigger scandal. Not the only one.

 

[KMC]

Ostiarius:

commenter:

we should not allow the Church’s enemies to blow this out of proportion or control the response

Whom are you talking about?

There are some rock-solid outfits that are doing a solid job of laying out the Church’s ills when it comes to not cleaning up sexual abuse.

I have repeatedly supported ++Vigano and EWTN, among responsible others, who have aired this issue.

I am a retired child abuse investigator, not minimizing this at all.

But many irresponsible other media are using this issue to hammer the only serious opposition to abortion, the Catholic Church; as they did in Ireland. The great majority of US institutional cover up of abuse occurred in public schools, Public foster care and residential services, Protestant churches, etc. The Church should have been better. But we were equally bad.

The scandal of mass acceptance of abortion, among Catholics and others, is the bigger scandal. Not the only one.

You bring up some good points. There are enemies of the Church who act as if the Catholic Church is the only entity that has to deal with sex abuse. Abuse within the public school system is estimated to be much higher (Google work by Dr. Charol Shakeshaft). California, just a few years ago, tried to pass a law to open up the statute of limitations for sex abuse accusations, ONLY for private entities, like Catholic schools or churches, but the bill EXCLUDED public institutions, like schools.

I also believe that the acceptance of abortion, so-called same sex marriage, embryonic stem cell research, etc, is a scandal as well. However, the pressing issue at the moment is abuse by clergy, and its cover-up. How can there be trust in the hierarchy of the Church, if some of the hierarchy covering up abuse? The acceptance of abortion by some Catholics is not hidden, the cover up of abuse by some clergy is.

 

[poche]

I don’t think that what Mgr. Vigano is doing is very respectful.

 

[commenter]

I don’t think that what Mgr. Vigano is doing is very respectful.

You may be right, at least in part. I have mixed feelings. (You use the term Mgr. to refer to a bishop, which is fully respectful in Europe, but perplexing to Americans)

In his first letter his main argument was about sex abuse, and the then Cardinal McCarrick. I doubt the Pope is in any way culpable regards condoning or covering up sex abuse.

His secondary argument was, in various ways, about the Pope’s extremely poor relationship with the Church in the US. I think this sub argument has merit.

 

[Feanor2]

I see a lot of people wringing their hands hoping for the downfall of the Holy father.

It’s shameful.

 

[commenter]

The acceptance of abortion by some Catholics is not hidden, the cover up of abuse by some clergy is.

Suppose you did a search of these 2 categories of media coverage for the past 12 months. And the past 12 years.

1. The morality, or lack of such, of Catholics accepting abortion;
2. Cover up of abuse by some clergy:

Let’s say you check your daily newspaper, TV stations, diocesan newspaper, major news providers, secular and Catholic.

My guess is that you would find more attention to the category #2, which you call hidden, than to category #1. Maybe by a factor of 100:1.

 

[twf]

In much of the world, including most (all?) of Latin America and Europe, it is customary to refer to bishops and archbishops as “Monsignor X”. Monsignor is not a position…it’s an honorific that means “my lord”. In North America we use that honorific for priests who have been made chaplains of his holiness and the like.

 

[anon10271182]

Yes.
And which posts expressed hope for “the downfall of the Holy father?” Post numbers, please!

 

[anon10271182]

We laity get the bishops we deserve, and sometimes better than we deserve.

How do laity deserve a bishop who covers up for predators…or a bishop who undermines Church and Biblical teachings on sexuality, gender, marriage and family by condoning homosexualism and the advancement of the “LGBT” agenda in his Diocese and in Christ’s One, Holy, and Apostolic Church?

 

[adgloriam]

lilypadres, I did read the third letter of Vigano and thought it was most compelling and believable.

(…)

But I firmly believe that Ab Vigano should rightfully be applauded for his courage. He has been the answer to the prayers of many.

@pnewton @teresa63 @PetraG I think Viganò had failed to realize this: Cardinal McCarrick had over the years maneuvered himself into a unique social and diplomatic (US) position and pope Francis had one final legitimate use for cardinal McCarrick…And that was to open China to the catholic church, and finally sign a concordat that permitted Rome to chose Chinese bishops.

Now this was a groundbreaking move lifting the Chinese ban, enforce since 1949, on Catholics - or a 68 year embargo. Or since 1721, depending how you count, which makes it a ban of almost 300 years…

So, pope Francis knew exactly what he was doing. He evaluated his resources and cardinal Law could simply not be substituted at that time. The old, probably already senile, Cardinal McCarrick took a few more trips and enjoyed his importance the he had built up over his entire life. The deal went through smoothly and exceeding all the best possible expectations. Bringing the faith and the holy church to 1.4 billion souls.

Can could we ask for more? Pope Francis at his best…

And cardinal McCarrick was finally ousted, to a monastery somewhere in Kansas - to undergo due penitence with what time he has left…

Happy ending

[Edit: changed Law for McCarrick - my mistake.]

 

[adgloriam]

@commenter @gracepoole @Crusader13 @Ostiarius @exnihilo @Tis_Bearself @Kathleen18 @13pollitos @0Scarlett_nidiyilii

The ends were legitimate, and the means were legitimate.

And Viganò being sincere, well intention, made of integrity, frank and honest, was kept in the dark about the larger picture.

One could even say the controversy was timely, in that it took away attention from the main event.

 

[kyrie03]

cardinal Law

Think you mean Cardinal McCarrick. He was rehabilitated by Pope Francis and sent to China.
Cardinal Law has been accused of protecting predators like Cd. McCarrick. He is the former AB of Boston who resigned in disgrace in 2002 and met his Maker December 20, 2017.

 

[adgloriam]

Hahaha

That’s lovely @kyrie03 thanks for the correction, I get those things wrong sometimes…

a good quote:

After decades of tensions, the Vatican and China have signed a “provisional agreement” on the appointment of bishops.

The deal — signed in Beijing by deputy foreign ministers on both sides — gives the Holy See a say in naming of bishops, and grants the pope veto power over candidates.

 

[pnewton]

I see a number that want sexual abuse in the Church to be seriously confronted once and for all. People that will simply not accept “I will not say a single word” as a proper response.

These are two separate things. It is unjust to put them together. The Pope’s statement was specifically about accusations made against him. By putting these to statements together which do not belong together, it will cause some readers to take the statement by Pope Francis as meaning he does not want sexual abuse to be confronted seriously. Now if that was your intent, then that is a matter between you and your confessor, for it is a major breach of charity against the Holy Father.

Pope Francis has called the first world wide synod of bishops to address specifically the problem and solutions to sexual abuse. If this is not taking the problem seriously, then it is not possible ever be seen taken it seriously to those who would harm the Catholic Church.

 

[adgloriam]

Pope Francis has called the first world wide synod of bishops to address specifically the problem and solutions to sexual abuse. If this is not taking the problem seriously, then it is not possible ever be seen taken it seriously to those who would harm the Catholic Church.

In fact, right after the Boston scandals bishops conferences around the world started reorganizing seminaries to ensure that the conditions conductive to those deviant behaviors be rooted out during the formative years. Those conferences started being held short afterwards with full participation of social actors, namely forensic psychiatrists. So the church was quick to respond when the dimension of the problem became public knowledge.

Fact being, some countries had very few problems or reported cases. After some research and afterthought, I found that in some countries it was allowed for seminarians to date during college and even before. So they could go through seminary, whilst continually discerning their vocation and dating. The result were men, that had a solid vocation, and knew what a romantic relationship was having opted for the priesthood.

God bless.

 

[kyrie03]

How do laity deserve a bishop who covers up for predators…or a bishop who undermines Church and Biblical teachings on sexuality, gender, marriage and family by condoning homosexualism and the advancement of the “LGBT” agenda in his Diocese and in Christ’s One, Holy, and Apostolic Church?

The laity are no different from the Shepherds

We do not honor our marriage vows “till death do us part” but seek accommodations and annulments. Husbands don’t love their wives as Christ loves His Church by providing for and protecting those under their care; wives have forgotten what it means to be a helpmate and subordinate to the lawful authority of their husbands.

Is it any wonder that the priests and bishops also stray from their vows?

While we contracept, they neglect teaching us clearly and unambiguously all of the truths necessary for salvation. New life, physical and spiritual, is blocked. They mercifully accompany us in our disobedience to the laws of God and the Church as they tickle our ears to ease not only their own, but also our consciences.

The Vigano testimony was a jolt, a warning from a man concerned with meeting his Maker, to clean out the rot. Seems we prefer silence from our Shepherds.

 

[commenter]

commenter:

We laity get the bishops we deserve, and sometimes better than we deserve.

How do laity deserve a bishop who covers up for predators…or a bishop who undermines Church and Biblical teachings on sexuality, gender, marriage and family by condoning homosexualism and the advancement of the “LGBT” agenda in his Diocese and in Christ’s One, Holy, and Apostolic Church?

I suppose bishops get the laity they deserve. And sometimes better.

 

[anon10271182]

If I can’t count on priests and bishops to be holier than me, than the Church is indeed in dire straits.