Against Mary - "Totus tuus, Mary"

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ElizabethPH said:
What you don’t know and cannot know if a saint, angel or mary can hear you. You may believe it but that does not make it true. The Scriptures do not teach this. What this is based on is the opinion of men and not God.

in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”
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This is not evidence though of anyone praying to a saint in heaven though.
 
st_lucy said:
why is it that you want us to summarize for you a tradition that has been happening for 2000 years but you wont take the time to study it for yourself? If you are really interested in finding out the truth than read up on it. It has been made very easy for you because you have been given the links, unlike most of us who had to actually search for the information ourselves.
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These are dicussion formunns and if you really know your stuff you should be able to show that. Even if i were to read all that the catholic church offers on a particular doctrine it would not mean you and i would arrive at the same conclusions. I want to know what you think and why.
 
st_lucy said:
Hello justasking4, this statement was brought up by you not only here but a little bit before. Why is it that you feel that you have the need to judge what these non-Christians are feeling as well as what catholics are feelings. Are you so comfortable in your salvation that now you have made it your own personal duty to push my Lord off of His throne to judge what is going on? If someone says they are praying to God with help of someone else ie the saints or Mary, than since I don’t have the ability to see in their heart I suppose the Christian thing to do would be to believe them.
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This is an issue of truth and not feelings or what “works”. This is why the apostles were so strongly against any false teachings. They were intolerate of it even if it “worked”. If you consider yourself a follower of Christ then you to have a responsiblity to not only defend the truth but expose false teachings.
 
justasking4 said:
These are dicussion formunns and if you really know your stuff you should be able to show that. Even if i were to read all that the catholic church offers on a particular doctrine it would not mean you and i would arrive at the same conclusions. I want to know what you think and why.
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Justasking…

would you join another thread named “Discussing Mary” and “Is Sola Scriptural?”? Suggest what you would like to discuss.
 
justasking4 said:
The church of the NT is not the same as the catholic church.
You claim it is not but so many have proven other wise. If you are too stubborn to see than how is that my fault? A simple history class can prove you wrong.

The issue is not what God could do but did He raise Mary bodily to heaven? Where is the evidence for that?

You are right it is God who could and did raise Mary body and soul. And it was God (the Holy Spirit) who revealed this to God’s (the Son) church.

Huh? If Mary was the supreme example, why don’t we see the apostles using her as an example in their letters?

So do you deny that she was a supreme example? Do you feel yourself better? The apostle’s letters weren’t about Mary but about Jesus, sorry you missed that. I think any sensible Christian would recognize who the first and most obedient servant was and would strive to inmate her.

i don’t “poo poo” your comments but ask you to support your claims. This is about the truth. Your church makes many claims that it cannot support by the scriptures and are the claims of fallen men.
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So you tell us to state our argument in our own words in a few sentences, and so I do and you tell me I am wrong. You have been shown how Mary’s role is fully scriptural and you tell us we are misunderstanding the scripture. What makes your understanding any better than ours? Why must you be right and we wrong? We have early church fathers who state the same as us, you have none to back up your claim.

So make up your mind, do you want to know the truth or don’t you? if not than I am not sure if you are going to win any hearts with your wishy washiness.

I am perfectly happy obeying my Lord by following the Church he set up for me 2000 years ago. if you are perfectly happy following your man made church I will wish you luck and pray for your happiness.
 
justasking4 said:
This is an issue of truth and not feelings or what “works”. This is why the apostles were so strongly against any false teachings. They were intolerate of it even if it “worked”. If you consider yourself a follower of Christ then you to have a responsiblity to not only defend the truth but expose false teachings.
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But to judge others where does that come into play?

The last time I checked only God had the ability to see ones heart. I do consider myself a follower of Christ and as such I know that I must never judge another. As follower I know that my Lord is the only who is pure enough to judge.
 
Justasking, tell me - is it POSSIBLE… only possible… that you could be wrong on some points? Or let’s say on one. Could be wrong at least on one point in what you’re saying? Is it theoretically possible?
 
zemi said:
Justasking…

would you join another thread named “Discussing Mary” and “Is Sola Scriptural?”? Suggest what you would like to discuss.
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The marian thread is the easier of the 2.
 
zemi said:
Justasking, tell me - is it POSSIBLE… only possible… that you could be wrong on some points? Or let’s say on one. Could be wrong at least on one point in what you’re saying? Is it theoretically possible?
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Since there are no infallible interpreters, then yes.
 
Hi Justasking,

Just one more thing then I’m out of here. I think this thread has run it’s course…with me anyway. But it’s been a pleasure.

“The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).”
 
zemi said:
Justasking, tell me - is it POSSIBLE… only possible… that you could be wrong on some points? Or let’s say on one. Could be wrong at least on one point in what you’re saying? Is it theoretically possible?
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i should ask you the same question about your church. Is it also possible that they could be wrong?
 
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st lucy;2566015]But to judge others where does that come into play?
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This is not about judging others but what is the truth? Are the things people believe true or not? If they are not true, do we have a responsiblity to say something?
The last time I checked only God had the ability to see ones heart. I do consider myself a follower of Christ and as such I know that I must never judge another. As follower I know that my Lord is the only who is pure enough to judge.
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Do you follow this command --But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
I Thessalonians 5:21?
 
st lucy;2565997]So you tell us to state our argument in our own words in a few sentences, and so I do and you tell me I am wrong. You have been shown how Mary’s role is fully scriptural and you tell us we are misunderstanding the scripture. What makes your understanding any better than ours? Why must you be right and we wrong?
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Take one aspect of the marian doctrines. It never ever mentions anything about her being assumed or being without sin. This is really not that difficult to see in the Scriptures.
We have early church fathers who state the same as us, you have none to back up your claim.
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Since many of the marian claims cannot be found in the scrptures we must now turn to there origins in history. For that you must wait centuries before you see some of these claims appearing. Again, take here assumption. Its not mentioned for centuries and it is stated clearly they don’t know what happened. That admission by a catholic is enough to reject any claims of assumption since it has no support.
So make up your mind, do you want to know the truth or don’t you? if not than I am not sure if you are going to win any hearts with your wishy washiness.
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i have yet to see anyone who believes in these doctrines to give a solid argument for there truthfulness. No facts from history nor passages from scripture. My question to you is: how can you believe something that really has not evidence for it?
I am perfectly happy obeying my Lord by following the Church he set up for me 2000 years ago. if you are perfectly happy following your man made church I will wish you luck and pray for your happiness.
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How can you really obey Christ when the scriptures don’t teach these doctrines nor can they be supported? Rather, this is a good indicator of a false teaching in your church.
 
justasking4 said:
This is not about judging others but what is the truth? Are the things people believe true or not? If they are not true, do we have a responsiblity to say something?

Do you follow this command --But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
I Thessalonians 5:21?
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Well since you are claim to read ones mind and feel you have the divine right to this. All I can say to you is good bye.🙂
 
justasking4 said:
Since there are no infallible interpreters, then yes.
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Thank you for your sincere answer and stating your position.

Mine is - I’m sure and totally confident that the RCC cannot err on the matters of faith and morals and is the infallible interpreter of these things. So you will prove me wrong if you can undermine the basis the RCC holds for this claim.

Sounds fair? To use the principle of falsification - you tell me the same - when do you say I can prove your position wrong?
 
zemi;2566696]Thank you for your sincere answer and stating your position.
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Mine is - I’m sure and totally confident that the RCC cannot err on the matters of faith and morals and is the infallible interpreter of these things. So you will prove me wrong if you can undermine the basis the RCC holds for this claim.
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This is going to be problematic for you. Think about what you are saying here. How will it be possible to falsify your position if you are going into this with the belief they can never be wrong ?
What speciifcally would i need to demonstrate that your church has indeed erred?
Sounds fair? To use the principle of falsification - you tell me the same - when do you say I can prove your position wrong?
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If i am going to make a claim then i will need to support it with scripture. I must also have the context in its proper position and not make the scriptures say something it does not. Take for example devotion to Mary. Does the scripture teach such a thing? The non evidence for something is not proof for something nor is speculations or examples.
 
justasking4 said:
This is going to be problematic for you. Think about what you are saying here. How will it be possible to falsify your position if you are going into this with the belief they can never be wrong ?
What speciifcally would i need to demonstrate that your church has indeed erred?
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I told you you can prove me wrong. You would prove me wrong by showing me that any doctrine the RCC teaches is wrong. But we have to begin somewhere. Let’s say by proving that Mt 16,18-19 is not what the Church teaches it means.
justasking4 said:
If i am going to make a claim then i will need to support it with scripture. I must also have the context in its proper position and not make the scriptures say something it does not. Take for example devotion to Mary. Does the scripture teach such a thing? The non evidence for something is not proof for something nor is speculations or examples.
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Yes it teaches many things at least implicitly which you are unwilling to accept.

I’ll pose 2 question for you in the next post
 
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