All about Seventh Day Adventists and Catholics

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I believe the 2 witnesses are the OT and NT. The two witnesses symbolise Moses and Elijah.
Moses is the law of the testaments.
Elijah is the greatest prophet in the old testament.
Both of these men appear in the new testament prior to Jesus’sacrafice.
The 2 olive trees and the 2 lampstands are the old and new testament beyond a shadow of a doubt.
The 2 olive trees, or the 2 lampstand are the old and new testament, are the word of the Lord, not by physical might or power, but by the Holy Spirit of God.
The two olive trees
(Zec 4:3)
Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl ( held the oil) and the other at its left."

(Zec 4:4)
So I answered and spoke to the angel who talked with me, saying, “What are these, my lord?”

(Zec 4:5)
Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.”

(Zec 4:6)
So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel ( religious leadership): ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ Says the LORD of hosts.

(Zec 4:14)
So he said, “These are the two anointed( = one who produces light) ones ( represent the heavenly instruments through which the Holy Spirit is imparted to human beings who work in God’s service- the anointed ones communicate light and power to God’s people), who stand beside the Lord( the ark of the covenant in the heavenly sanctuary hold the 10 commandments) of the whole earth.”

The olive trees provide oil to the lamps, the oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

The lamp stands

The “lamp” stand is a symbol of “the light of God’s word”. (Psa 119:105) Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.
Notice that, it also takes the olive oil of the Spirit to illuminate the lamp of God’s Word.
see - (Exo 35:14)
also the lampstand for the light, its utensils, its lamps, and the oil for the light;

7 candlesticks represent : represents perfection, and is the sign of God, divine worship, completions, obedience, and rest also 7 chruches.
Below, Paul is talking about spiritual love,
(1Co 13:1)
Though I speak with the tongues ( languages of the nations) of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass( life less sound) or a clanging cymbal (clanging sounds) .

(1Co 13:1)
ThoughG1437 I speakG2980 with theG3588 tonguesG1100 of menG444 andG2532 of angels,G32 andG1161 haveG2192 notG3361 charity ( highest form of love – believers relation to God),G26 I am becomeG1096 as soundingG2278 brass,G5475 orG2228 a tinklingG214 cymbal.G2950

The above means, every word of God will be established in the testaments speaking through men and of angels and then when God comes He speaks through himself.

(Rev 11:3)
And I will give power to my two witnesses ( old and new testaments), and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days ( This 1,260 days is between AD 538 and 1798, when the law the prophets and the Bible were obscured ) , clothed in sackcloth (symbolic for mourning- see 2 Sam 3:31)."
Therefore, the scriptures of the bible were in mourning during that time period when scripture was obscured the word of God.

(Rev 11:4)
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands ( or candlesticks - standing before the God of the earth.

(Rev 11:5)
And if anyone wants to harm them ( 2 witnesses), fire proceeds (Fire came down from heaven on the Egyptians as they pursued God’s children and it consumed the sons of Aaron ) from their mouth and devours their enemies ( and consumed the soldiers when they confronted Elijah) ( those resisting the witness of the Holy Spirit will die in the lake of fire and). And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

(Rev 11:6)
These have power to shut heaven , so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy (Elijah predicted there would be no rain in Israel – see Luke 4:25); and they have power over waters to turn them to blood (Moses prayed and the water turned to blood), and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire ( plagues in the past and at the end of times).

Why isn;t the offspring of the woman Jesus? Rev 12:5 says She (THE WOMAN) brought forth a male child (JESUS), one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and his throne.
and why is it not the disciples? did they not keep GOD’s commandments? Were they not worthy? In your opinion, who was it then that kept God’s commandments? In that case, did the disciples not have the “testimony of Jesus”? Who better than them who actually talked/learned with Him?

In order to answer your question better… who does the women symbolize in Rev. 12:13 and in 12:17 ?

I find it curious how you say “The remnant of the church are those that keep the ten commandments that were handed down to Moses and they that have the “testimony of Jesus”= spirit of prophecy.”
When scripture doesn’t say moses, it says the commandments of God. It is as if you are reassuring me that the commandments being talked about here are the exact 10 that God gave to Moses. I feel like you are specifically thinking about the Sabbath here.

You are correct in your assumption of the 10 commandments and the Sabbath… your getting to know my thoughts 🙂

Question: Do you believe we are still under Moses Law? I don’t. Let me knw what you thnk.

No , we are not under Moses’ law, but the 10 Commandments of God that were presented to Moses. These 10 commandments are not legalistic commandments as most Jews understood, but the 10 commandments that are written in our hearts.

PS - I do like the way you use scripture for authority.

written with love
 
No he is not. His office, as the vicar of Christ and Bishop of Rome, when it is used to speak on an area of faith and morals, is infallible.

And, he is never ever-sinless, or impeccable.

In fact, the pope goes to confession regularly I am told. Why would he need to do that if he were impeccable?

It seems that you are confusing impeccability with infallibility.

So any references to the alleged sins of Pope Damasus are irrelevant. We know he was a sinner. Just like St. Peter was a sinner.

Still not sure if you bring this up in reference to the Councils of Hippo and Carthage as if to say that his sinfulness negates anything decreed by these councils?? Is that your point?
I guess I don’t understand how one person (Pope) can replace Jesus on earth.

written with love
 
I guess I don’t understand how one person (Pope) can replace Jesus on earth.

written with love
BTTG, it is good that you are here because you are certainly getting a lot of your misconceptions of Catholicism corrected.

The Church does not teach that the Pope replaces Jesus on earth.

However, in another sense, are we not *all *called to “replace” Jesus on earth? Are we not to take up our cross and follow him? Are we not to be his hands and feet and his words? Are we not to be the aroma of Christ? :signofcross:
 
Bttg…

Jesus and the apostles are the foundation of His church. But why, then was Peter singled out?

Why was the Church in Rome in ancient times seen as the primary church–meaning, that which provided support to beginning churches, and why did the churches perceive Rome as having authority to finalize disputes?

Do you expect Christ to establish a church that is ‘gone with the wind?’
 
And yet, this is not based on Scripture.

You have succumbed to a man-made tradition* that someone told you is true*, but cannot be proven with any Scripture verse.
(Isa 8:20) To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
 
Bttg…

Jesus and the apostles are the foundation of His church. But why, then was Peter singled out?

Why was the Church in Rome in ancient times seen as the primary church–meaning, that which provided support to beginning churches, and why did the churches perceive Rome as having authority to finalize disputes?

Do you expect Christ to establish a church that is ‘gone with the wind?’
I do not see the “church” as being the “Catholic church” as it is known today.
 
(Isa 8:20) To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Amen!

However, as the NT had not been written yet, it appears that Isaiah is talking about something different than you are, yes?
 
Ok. So history documents this. Can you please give me ~specifics~ to back your statement up? Not looking for trouble or challenges - just want to see what you (and others) consider proof that the Catholic Church wrote and assembled the Bible.
THanks -
Annie
Purer Manuscripts behind the King James Bible
The two main manuscripts which underlie all the modern versions have been corrupted repeatedly. Let us look at the characteristics of Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, which are the darlings of the modern bible editor.
The Vaticanus Manuscript (B) The word “Vatican” in Latin means “Hill of Divination.” (Deu 18:10 KJV) There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, The Vaticanus manuscript was found in the Vatican library in 1481. It was rejected by the King James Translators because it was very corrupt and unreliable. The following portions of Scripture are missing from the Vaticanus: Genesis 1:1-46; 28; Psalms 106-138; Matthew 16:2-3; Mark 16:9-20; The Pastoral Epistles (1 & 2 Timothy and Titus); Hebrews 9:14-13:25 and all of the book of Revelation. These were intentional omissions because the manuscript was found in excellent condition with no pieces missing. In the Gospels it leaves out 237 words, 452 clauses, and 748 whole sentences. These omissions were intentional since there was room left on pages to write these in. The Vaticanus manuscript was written on expensive Vellum and was in good condition when found which means that the missing areas were not due to missing sections but intentional omission.
No Roman Catholic Connection
The King James Bible is totally free of any Roman Catholic intrusion. The Vaticanus was found in the Vatican Library in 1481 and the Sinaiticus was found in a garbage can in St. Catherine‟s Monastery in 1844. St. Catherine‟s is the monastery where they have skulls piled high in a room and even have a skeleton of a dead monk hanging on a door. Would God really consign His word to such an evil, macabre place? Then the texts underlying the modern versions which are the United Bible Society and the Nestle Aland Novum Testamentum-Graece had a man on the editorial committees named Carlo Montini, who was a Jesuit Cardinal. Another man named Alberto Ablondi, who was the Bishop of Livorno, Italy was a member of the General Committee and European Regional Executive Committee of the United Bible Society. His own view of “interconfessional translation” projects is that they are “one of the important advancements of post-Vatican II ecumenism - an important step toward unity.”

(Word/Event No. 57/1984 P.6) A former UBS Vice-President was Dr. Francis Arinze, who was not only a Roman Catholic Bishop but has been made a Cardinal by the Pope.
The modern versions are wreaking with Roman Catholic influence as the modern versions follow the corrupted Latin Vulgate of Jerome. Not one of the King James Translators were Roman Catholic and not one manuscript used had any Roman Catholic corruptions. The King James Bible is the preserved word of God and did not suffer any textual corruption as God preserved it as he said He would.

written with love
 
Amen!

However, as the NT had not been written yet, it appears that Isaiah is talking about something different than you are, yes?
We find a reference in the NT that Jesus pointed to the OT as being of great value in faith and doctrine. Jesus recommends to those listening that the OT is a safe guide to salvation.

(Luk 16:29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

also,

(Mat 5:17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

(Luk 24:27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

written with love
 
Sorry I touched a nerve. Some easy research will inform. Research particularly the years between 538-1798 AD and what the bible went through.

written with love
 
Bttg…

What is the form of governance for your church/religion?

Is it conciliar?
 
Bttg,

How did Christ establish your church/religion…I take it you are part of the Ellen White church?
 
BTTG, it is good that you are here because you are certainly getting a lot of your misconceptions of Catholicism corrected.

The Church does not teach that the Pope replaces Jesus on earth.

However, in another sense, are we not *all *called to “replace” Jesus on earth? Are we not to take up our cross and follow him? Are we not to be his hands and feet and his words? Are we not to be the aroma of Christ? :signofcross:
With respect, your catechism’s definition reads like the Pope is Jesus on earth.

“For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.” Pg. 234, #882

“The Roman Pontiff… as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful…” Pg. 235, #891

“The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls” Pg. 246, #937

Yes , we are all priests, not one man having the authority of our souls. In saying there were Pope’s who did wonderful things, just as many Catholics have done tremendous things for the Lord.

written with love
 
Bttg…

What regions of the world encompass your religion/church?
I humbly provide and give all the praise to God for what He is doing. This article was published in USA Today, March 17, 2011.

"If these practices sound quaint or antiquated, think again. They’re hallmarks of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the fastest-growing Christian denomination in North America.
Newly released data show Seventh-day Adventism growing by 2.5% in North America, a rapid clip for this part of the world, where Southern Baptists and mainline denominations, as well as other church groups are declining. Adventists are even growing 75% faster than Mormons (1.4 percent), who prioritize numeric growth.
For observers outside the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the growth rate in North America is perplexing.
“You’ve got a denomination that is basically going back to basics … saying, ‘What did God mean by all these rules and regulations and how can we fit in to be what God wants us to be?’,” said Daniel Shaw, an expert on Christian missionary outreach at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif. “That’s just totally contrary to anything that’s happening in American culture. So I’m saying, ‘Whoa! That’s very interesting.’ And I can’t answer it.”

Membership is about 16 million.

Divisions of the SDA church:
East-Central Africa (ECD) Nairobi, Kenya
Euro-Africa (EUD) Berne, Switzerland
Euro-Asia (ESD) Moscow, Russia
Inter-American (IAD) Miami, United States of America
North American (NAD) Silver Spring, United States of America
Northern Asia-Pacific (NSD) Koyang City, Korea.
Southern Africa-Indian Ocean (SID) Harare Zimbabwe
South American (SAD) Brasilia, Brazil.
South Pacific (SPD) Wahroonga, Australia.
Southern Asia (SUD) Tamil Nadu, India.
Southern Asia-Pacific (SSD) Cavite, Philippines.
Trans-European (TED) St. Albans, England.
West-Central Africa (WAD) Abidjan, Cote d’Ivoire.

written with love
 
Bttg…

What regions of the world encompass your religion/church?
Taken from SDA manual:

The local church made up of individual believers
The local conference, or local field/mission, made up of a number of local churches in a state, province, or territory
The union conference, or union field/mission, made up of conferences or fields within a larger territory (often a grouping of states or a a whole country)
The General Conference represents the worldwide expression of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Its constituent membership is defined in the Constitution of the General Conference. To facilitate its worldwide activity, the General Conference has established regional offices, known as divisions of the General Conference, which have been assigned, by action of the General Conference Executive Committee at Annual Councils, general administrative oversight responsibilities for designated groups of unions and other church units within specific geographical areas.

Each level is “representative,” that is it reflects a democratic process of formation and election. Local churches elect their own officers and church boards by majority voting. Churches elect delegates to the conferences which meet “in session” every two or three years. Executive authority between sessions is exercised by the Conference Executive Committee and the executive officers (normally President, Secretary and Treasurer), all of whom are elected by the session.

A similar process operates for Union sessions usually 5 years and General Conference sessions, at which times officers and committees are elected, reports given and policies decided.

Each constituent level of the church operates a variety of institutions. Seventh-day Adventists see in the gospel commission and the example of the Lord and His apostles the responsibility of followers of Christ to serve the whole person. In their world outreach they have therefore followed the pattern of their beginnings in the development of educational, health-care, publishing, and other institutions. No church organization or entity assumes responsibility for the liabilities, debts, acts, or omissions of any other church organization simply because of its church affiliation.

When differences arise in or between organizations and institutions, appeal to the next higher organization is proper until it reaches the General Conference in session, or the Executive Committee at the Annual Council. During the interim between these sessions, the Executive Committee shall constitute the body of final authority on all questions where a difference of viewpoint may develop. When organizations review decisions of other organizations, they do not assume responsibility for the liabilities of any other organization.
 
Bttg,

Thanks for sharing the extent of the Seventh Day Church. So your hierarchy is conciliar.

Catholicism follows the Jewish model of bishop over his own local church. Our liturgy of the Mass was pretty much defined by 100 AD, and it was practiced as such through the ancient Christian world. Its tone, spirit, and intent is the same as the Mass said today throughout the world.

I won’t comment on your references regarding finding materials in a garbage can or skulls…Rather, I would recommend you get hold of some objective, and non-biased materials on the history of Christianity.

There were excellent Bibles long before the King James Version, and many Catholics today use the KJV as well.

I do tend to see SDA’s as pretty righteous people, and embracing the Bible but not understanding how the Bible was assembled, or understanding other Christians.

No, I would not see the Vatican in the light you are indoctrinated in. If I did, I would not be Catholic.
 
The King James Bible is the preserved word of God and did not suffer any textual corruption as God preserved it as he said He would.

written with love
From whence came this KJ version of the Bible?

That is, who discerned for King James that the Gospel of Thomas was not theopneustos and that the Gospel of Mark was?

When was the KJ version codified?

And what did the early Christians use before?
 
From whence came this KJ version of the Bible?

That is, who discerned for King James that the Gospel of Thomas was not theopneustos and that the Gospel of Mark was?

When was the KJ version codified?

And what did the early Christians use before?
I think we are getting off topic.
 
Bttg,

Thanks for sharing the extent of the Seventh Day Church. So your hierarchy is conciliar.

Catholicism follows the Jewish model of bishop over his own local church. Our liturgy of the Mass was pretty much defined by 100 AD, and it was practiced as such through the ancient Christian world. Its tone, spirit, and intent is the same as the Mass said today throughout the world.

I won’t comment on your references regarding finding materials in a garbage can or skulls…Rather, I would recommend you get hold of some objective, and non-biased materials on the history of Christianity.

There were excellent Bibles long before the King James Version, and many Catholics today use the KJV as well.

I do tend to see SDA’s as pretty righteous people, and embracing the Bible but not understanding how the Bible was assembled, or understanding other Christians.

No, I would not see the Vatican in the light you are indoctrinated in. If I did, I would not be Catholic.
Thanks for your comments. SDA’s do understand other Christians, please do not think that.

thanks for conversing
 
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