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Maso
Guest
How true that is… and when they do that… their right hand knows exactly what their left hand is doing.
Ananytically thinking… what they are really doing is paying for their own public relations…
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Ananytically thinking… what they are really doing is paying for their own public relations…
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Oscarthecat
Guest
This is absolute insanity.
The Gross Domestic Product is defined as the total market value of all goods and services produced within a given country.
As the GDP increases, individual opportunity increases- because wealth grows, people start and expand businesses, jobs are created, employers offer better pay and better benefits to attract workers, people have expendable wealth, expendable wealth is reinvested back into the economy and given to charitable organizations, charitable organizations help the poor and disenfranchised to participate more fully in the booming economy. Poor people work hard, build careers and businesses, become successful, and become admired and respected as examples of the great opportunities available to people who take responsibility for their own lives. This is the free market.
As the GDP Decreases, opportunity also decreases- because wealth shrinks, businesses close, people lose jobs, employers reduce pay and benefits to save money and because people will take what they can get in order to work, more people become dependent upon government programs, government budgets soar, governments raise taxes and print more money to pay for the bigger programs, businesses suffer under the greater tax burden, people lose jobs, and start to resent anyone who is not suffering as much as they are, so they pass punitive laws against the remaining successful people in their country. In the end, people realize the only “opportunity” they have left is to pick up their torches and pitchforks and initiate aggressive negotiations with their leaders. **This is your socialist utopia.
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Sheeniac
Guest
Which is what most of us do, some more than others.
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cynic
Guest
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This might be true but wealth doesn’t neccessarily filter through into services that are required but don’t make a profit. Instead it can become concentrated in the hands of investers and highly paid professionals. A society organised to produce the highest GDP possible does not neccessarily mean there will affordable education for children, and why would it? Perhaps having a large pool of low paid semi-educated morons is of more benefit to investors than having a well educated, mobile workforce that can bargain for wages and readily upskill.
I think it’s more in our long term interests if everyone’s incomes are marginally reduced (read marginally, it does not mean 40% tax) in order to fund opportunity for all. 98% of people would agree. Your point of view is on the margins.
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Who says a significant amount of wealth will be given to charity? Wouldn’t that also reduce GDP?
Yeah but they need a basic education to do this, and there’s no guarantee of that under a pure free market/libertarian system.
lol, no it isn’t.
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Oscarthecat
Guest
So you think that tax rates nearing 40% are too high, huh? You might want to rethink that figure, as most havens of socialism are right up in that range…
Odd that so many of these countries don’t fit that mold…yet several of them have been touted as burgeoning socialist utopias…
Source: kpmg.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Individual-income-tax-rate-survey-2008.pdf
Australia 45%
Austria 21%-50%
Canada 15-29%
China 5-45%
Denmark 41-60%
Finland 12-35%
France 10%-48.09%
Germany 0-45%
Ireland 20-42%
Italy 23-45% 20%
Japan 10-37% -
Netherlands 36-60%
Norway 28%
Poland 19-40%
Portugal 15-40%
Romania 20-60%
Spain 0-56%
United Kingdom 0-40%
United States of America 0-35%
Ugh- you just don’t understand what the GDP is…
When people give money to charity, it is an economically productive act because that money is used by the charity to buy goods, services, etc, and in this way re-enters the marketplace, and thus increases the GDP.
There are no guarantees…sorry…even if the government promises…
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cynic
Guest
Yup, and these “havens of socialism” aren’t some example to follow. But they do show that, depending on the values a society holds, people are still willing to work and upskill despite high taxes. Maybe that’s because education and acheivement are seen as worthwhile beyond earning a lot and keeing up with the Jones’s. By your reasoning they should be 3rd world holes.
Whatever this is supposed to prove, It’s worth mentioning that this list does not indicate at what income level the top tax rate applies. For example the top tax rate in Australia doesn’t begin until around 150,00 AUD (and then of course it’s would be 45% on every dollar earned above that).
So is money received via goverment. Unless the government own and runs everything, it too will be used to purchase goods and services
Ah, so it shouldn’t try then right? and you won’t have to pay any tax at all…
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thomfra
Guest
Heard that a million times on this forum. “We don’t support government helping the poor because they do a bad job”. Do you know any other songs?
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thomfra
Guest
yeah yeah. You are really preaching to the converted here. Nobody here singing the praises of communism. Try reading the posts. We are talking about socialist democracy now.
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mapleoak
Guest
The claim is that if someone chooses to buy a car with their money it is wrong and unjust, therefore it is better if the government forcibly takes that money and out of the goodness of its heart, charitably redistributes it to whom it deems it should be given to.
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thomfra
Guest
How on *earth *did you come to that conclusion???The claim is that if someone chooses to buy a car with their money it is wrong and unjust, therefore it is better if the government forcibly takes that money and out of the goodness of its heart, charitably redistributes it to whom it deems it should be given to.
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mapleoak
Guest
Isn’t that what you said? That if the government isn’t responsible enough to take people’s money from them and distribute to others, that people are going to do something evil such as buy a flat screen TV. The government should act as a charity since the people are not charitable?
As I said before, if that were the case, then what is the explanation for why people take charitable tax deductions?
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thomfra
Guest
Sounds to me like you have a guilty conscience if you read that from what I said… deary me.
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mapleoak
Guest
Nope. I have enough faith in people to believe that the less they are taxed, the more generous they would be. Especially considering that redistribution results in lower taxed classes harboring tendencies toward feelings of entitlement. Looking more to what they will get or be given rather than what they can give.
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cynic
Guest
People who can’t get enough to eat, haven’t washed in a month, and are barely literate aren’t really capable of giving much. Oh but yes, government is the problem and the odd one-off donation to a charity of your choice is more than adequate to rectify all this.
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mapleoak
Guest
These people could certainly be helped by the generosity of those of us who earn a little bit of an income and/or will offer our time and talent to help them. We help them without expecting reward or payment back from them in return.
Yes, because it forces people into dependency and leeching.
No, a one-off donation to a charity probably wouldn’t have much effect. Thankfully, that is not what Catholicism teaches us. We help those in need, even if it requires sacrifice, which is certainly more than a once in a lifetime donation. It is an ongoing responsibility for each of us individually until we die.
In actuality, people who don’t give, likely won’t give no matter how much or little they are taxed. Those who are generous with what they have are likely to be all the more generous if their money isn’t being stolen from them. The mindset here seems to be tax others, that way I don’t have to worry about helping my neighbor, the government is taking care of them and therefore I am going to heaven easy.
If only. But the way is narrow. No easy outs.
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cynic
Guest
for charity to be effective, that could also be a side-effect of it. If charities can apply rules for receiving help, then so can government. The difference is tha charities don’t ussually help in practical ways, eg paying someone’s rent who has just been made redundant, and in the end there’s no guarantee that they can. It’s more an ambulance at the bottom of the hill type of thing
If they resent paying any tax to the point of calling if theft, are they likely to be generous?
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narrowpath
Guest
I disagree. I would say that they were tricked by a pseudo-communist, Lenin, who left communism and set up a different system, communist in name only. He did not follow marxist theory. His succesors perverted it even more, especially Stalin. the Russians then finally overcame this system of corruption.
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Proletarian
Guest
I completely agree with you that the American working class were seduced into anti-socialism, just as they were lead to believe by the ruling classes that there were WMDs in Iraq.I don’t know if this is the right subforum to post this on, and I hope that the headline caused you to check it out.
America has always been anti-communist/socialist. McCain accused Obama of being a socialist. BUT…
Something I noiced. One of the key tenets of socialism and communism is that the obscenely wealthy should be taxed more than the average working middleclass person, because they can afford it and it is good for the country. HOWEVER: After the Bolshevik revolution in Russia, the wealthy and powerful in America immediatly began setting Americans against communism. Ironically, THESE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE FORCED TO GIVE MORE TO THE COUNTRY AND SOCIAL PROGRAMS, AS WELL AS GIVE UP SOME OF THEIR POWER!
While I would be the first to agree that communist/socialist countries have mostly failed, socialism in theory isn’t a bad system. Just look at kibbutzes in Israel. And even the family practices a type of socialism, sharing and caring for one another, bei ng as equal as possible while still maintaining some hirarchy.
You thoughts apprecialted.
Any catholic communists out there?
Are there any catholic socialists out there? Personally I would call myself a reformed socialist. “Socialism”, has done just as much to oppress the working class as capitalism. I agree that socialism can work when good sincere people are resolute about social justice; for example most of our religious orders operate under some form of socialism. However most people are often overcome by self interest. The answer I believe is a “distributist” economic policy (look it up, its really interesting!) In essence it’s a highly controlled capitalist system, in which the distribution of capital is as even as possible, but is privately owned.
I believe Marx’s social theory regarding “class struggle” is the best way of viewing society, however hes economic theory has some serious flaws.
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Nino
Guest
First,Lets ignore the name…these ‘isms’are nothing new…fascism,nazism,communism…all of the same class. A group of evil individuals who follow Satans way of fooling the masses into thinking or not thinking,that this group has the answer to lifes problems. Last century these tolerant ones murdered some 100 million innocent people…all in the name of helping the poor.Its a movement of the wealthy class first of all…Jesus warned that it is easier for a camel to make it thru the eye of a needle then a rich man…for the rich man has a thirst for more and more money and power. This robin hood nonsense of taking from the rich to give to the poor is smoke and mirrors. If a communist state is so charming,how come no one can leave it …communism as all such isms get into power using lies and stay in power using guns. No one can be a socialist or commie or maybe even a boston red sox rooter and be a Catholic.(!)…this is an oxy-moron. I met Fr.John Houle SJ after he spent years in a concentration camp in China…I spoke with his film Heart of a Priest…the brutal tactics of this gang was all in the film…later Fr.Houle was to be the recipient of a gift from God…a miracle!!! It was this miracle that finally gave Blessed Claude the third one he needed to be officially recognized as a saint. That little film and the letters from Fr.Houle to me are more worthwhile and true then any propaganda from pro-communist ie;anti-freedom agents. Stalin and HItler signed that peace pact in 1939 to start WW2…like Capone and Siegal they were gangsters out for the buck ,control over the others not in the club and like the reds had hollyweird,professors,media moguls ,and just plain Christ haters to do their dirty work for them…one finds more ‘communists’ in Ivy league circles then in landscapers and soccer moms.by the way…Karl Marx wrote a college thesis titled "on the Jewish question’ it was so anti-semitic HItler years later quoted from it word for word…another secret the apologists like to keep a secret!“when treason prosper,none dare call it treason!”
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Proletarian
Guest
You forgot capitalism, another ism that has the lead to the death of millions, and the oppression of billions more
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