An Eternity in Hell for a Moment of Sin

[duskyjewel]

Ramalama,

You keep coming back to this point of “God knows the future and so He knows the guy would have repented in 10 minutes.” Or some such construction, that was just your most recent one.

BUT the whole point of free will is that the future is not predetermined. God may know us well enough that He knows what we will do, but He does not force us to do that and He does not determine our actions. Once this life is over, God judges us based on that life and that life only. Not what would have happened if we lived 10 more minutes.

Would we really want that? What if, in 10 more minutes, I would have entered into unreasonable murderous rage and killed someone, with full knowledge and intention that my actions were mortal sin? Would I want God judging me on that? Because if you want God to do this, it cuts both ways.

 

[DallasCatholic]

This is the text of Fr. Serpa’s response in the post in question.

"Hi Michael,

I wouldn’t consider that lie to be a mortal sin. A more serious lie could be. But not participating in the foot washing is not a major item. Let’s say that he saw an old girl friend and stopped to have coffee with her, got rather chummy and lied about the fact that he is married. That would be a more serious lie and a mortal sin.

So He gets into the car and is killed at the next intersection. If he is able to ask pardon of the Lord in the last seconds of his life, he can be forgiven and go to Purgatory. If not, he will go to hell for all eternity.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P."

The sinner apparently did not have time to repent. That’s what I’m talking about.

In answer to your other question, no, I haven’t read them all yet. I’m working on them.

Rama,
Did you miss this part?
If he is able to ask pardon of the Lord in the last seconds of his life, he can be forgiven and go to Purgatory.

We don’t know if the sinner had time to repent or not that is why Fr. Serpa worded his reply to specifically take that possiblitlity into account.

 

[Ramalama]

So what exactly is your objection then? We agree that it is possible, even through a single act, to reject God’s gift of salvation. And we agree that God would not let a God-loving man die and go to hell who, but for a few more moments or seconds, would have repented. So I’m not sure where the problem lies.

Let me tell you another story, this time a personal one. I once told a small (I thought) lie, for (I thought) the very best of reasons. Later I found that my little lie had gotten somebody chewed out by his boss unjustly. At that moment, when the actual gravity of my tiny lie was revealed to me, I was horrified. I was, literally, in horror over what I had done. Of course I apologized and made amends ASAP (the next day), but for that entire night I could barely sleep. I suffered (was privileged to suffer, I say) a taste of the torments of the damned for that one night. That was God giving me a little mid-course correction in my life, and boy did He get my attention!

My point? That one who truly loves God, when they comprehend what they have done (and mortal sin requires comprehension), do not “eventually get around” to remorse. When their eyes are opened, the remorse floods them, surrounds them, engulfs them. That is the reality that your hypothetical story does not encompass. That is the reality, the reality of God’s mercy, that ensures that God’s justice will never be injustice.

Mike, my objection is that Fr. Serpa, and presumably the Catholic church has the man rotting in hell. Please read the post linked to in my original post.

 

[Ramalama]

The Church has never, ever said that a man whom God knows would be repentent in a few moments, will nevertheless be allowed to die and go to hell by God. There is no such teaching. The Church has never taught that anybody will go to hell “by mistake” or “by bad luck” (in this case, the bad luck of dying in the few moments of unrepentance).

Please read the post linked to in my original post.

 

[DallasCatholic]

Mike, my objection is that Fr. Serpa, and presumably the Catholic church has the man rotting in hell. Please read the post linked to in my original post.

No, Fr. Serpa and the Catholic Church does not have the man rotting in hell. Please read my previous post.

 

[Ramalama]

Rama,
Did you miss this part?
If he is able to ask pardon of the Lord in the last seconds of his life, he can be forgiven and go to Purgatory.

We don’t know if the sinner had time to repent or not that is why Fr. Serpa worded his reply to specifically take that possiblitlity into account.

“So He gets into the car and is killed at the next intersection. If he is able to ask pardon of the Lord in the last seconds of his life, he can be forgiven and go to Purgatory. If not, he will go to hell for all eternity.”

I’m taking the branch that says he didn’t. I’m simply saying again, I cannot reconcile a merciful God with one that would let the man rot in hell because he didn’t have time to repent.

 

[DallasCatholic]

I’m taking the branch that says he didn’t. I’m simply saying again, I cannot reconcile a merciful God with one that would let the man rot in hell because he didn’t have time to repent.

If he chose not to repent from a Mortal sin…I don’t see your problem. Your last sentence doesn’t mesh with your first sentence. Either the man repented before he died or he did not. If he did not (not because he didn’t have time…but because he chose not to repent) then he is going to hell. Really I can’t see what the problem is for a situation that is so hypothetical as to be totally unrealistic.

 

[DallasCatholic]

“So He gets into the car and is killed at the next intersection. If he is able to ask pardon of the Lord in the last seconds of his life, he can be forgiven and go to Purgatory. If not, he will go to hell for all eternity.”

I’m taking the branch that says he didn’t. I’m simply saying again, I cannot reconcile a merciful God with one that would let the man rot in hell because he didn’t have time to repent.

Ahhhh, I see…FINALLY. You interpret Fr. Serpa’s remark as if the man did not have time to repent then he is going to hell. You would have to ask Fr. Serpa for confirmation but I do not think that is what he meant. I believe what Fr. Serpa meant was not “if he had time to repent” but “if he chose not to repent”. I don’t know if it is “official” Church teaching or not but I have always been taught that God will give us the opportunity to repent up until the actual instant of death.

 

[Ramalama]

If he chose not to repent from a Mortal sin…I don’t see your problem. Your last sentence doesn’t mesh with your first sentence. Either the man repented before he died or he did not. If he did not (not because he didn’t have time…but because he chose not to repent) then he is going to hell. Really I can’t see what the problem is for a situation that is so hypothetical as to be totally unrealistic.

Dallas, I didn’t come up with this. I got it from the forum. If it’s hypothetical to the point of being unrealistic it’s not my fault.

I know what you’re thinking, and you’re right. I don’t like the Dallas Cowboys but please don’t hold that against me.

From the description of the guy I think he would have repented given more time. I guess I don’t know what else to say.

 

[DallasCatholic]

Dallas, I didn’t come up with this. I got it from the forum. If it’s hypothetical to the point of being unrealistic it’s not my fault.

I know what you’re thinking, and you’re right. I don’t like the Dallas Cowboys but please don’t hold that against me.

From the description of the guy I think he would have repented given more time. I guess I don’t know what else to say.

LOL. Don’t you know that the hole in the roof was so that God could watch his team play? (Let’s not get into the absurdity of that statement. )

I think we have been talking past each other. If you read my last post I think I finally understood where you were coming from.

 

[Ramalama]

LOL. Don’t you know that the hole in the roof was so that God could watch his team play? (Let’s not get into the absurdity of that statement. )

I think we have been talking past each other. If you read my last post I think I finally understood where you were coming from.

Thanks for the help, Dallas.

 

[VociMike]

Mike, my objection is that Fr. Serpa, and presumably the Catholic church has the man rotting in hell. Please read the post linked to in my original post.

Only because you have added to the original story. You have added that the man was destined for heaven before this last act, and that he would have repented a few moments later had he not died, and you have added that God, who knows all things, allowed this man to die in those few moments between being destined for heaven. You have essentially boxed God and the Church in, making assumptions that may not be justifiable.

Your additions raise another interesting point. How much time is “not enough” to repent? Suppose the man had died a day after committing a mortal sin (and remember, I don’t automatically concede that the event in the story was a mortal sin, but let’s stipulate a definite mortal sin)? Supposed he had died a week after? A month? How much time is enough to repent? It took me 30 years to repent of some mortal sins I committed in my youth.

Just curious…

 

[JustPray14]

JustPray, I’m sorry if it sounded like a fight - I don’t think any of us are fighting.

The “fight” I was referring to was the one between you and your wife… at least that’s what I thought I read…I’d have to look back at your original post I was replying to! Anyway…

It can be very difficult discerning God’s Truth when everyone seems to be saying something different at times. But, that’s because we each contain a “little” of ALL of God’s wisdom! We do and should look up to our priests, but you must remember they are human too. We can’t be greater than God and we shouldn’t desire to be… that’s why Satan has been condemned to hell. I can honestly say, I once questioned some of the beliefs of the Catholic Church, but that’s because I stopped thinking about the devil who opposes Him! If we fail to see the reality of the devil’s existence and his desire to deceive us/trick us into sin, just like Eve, then we open ourselves to be mislead in our Catholic faith, and that’s when we begin questioning it. Satan is truly out for the ruin of souls! Yours and mine… all of ours. But, once and for all, God sent His son, the Lamb of God to be sacrificed for our sins, because yes, he loves us that much. With an open heart, I listen to EWTN and I learn, because I WANT to understand the Truth of the Catholic faith… MY faith… better…so that I can defend it lovingly. That was another reason for questioning my faith… I didn’t know and still don’t know everything about it…I am still learning… and I have a long way to go! But, I will praying for the Holy Spirit to help you discern His Truth and Wisdom in your questioning of the Catholic faith. Do be open to when God might be humbling you that your way of thinking is not His…He humbles me all the time… often through my spouse!! I believe God is challenging your faith to grow stronger! And, I say that very lovingly… I do care for your soul… don’t let sin keep you from God! Trust in the Sacrament of Reconciliation! Then one day, you will hopefully be able to ask God face to face… all of these questions and get the answers directly from the source of all Truth!

 

[Ramalama]

Only because you have added to the original story. You have added that the man was destined for heaven before this last act, and that he would have repented a few moments later had he not died, and you have added that God, who knows all things, allowed this man to die in those few moments between being destined for heaven. You have essentially boxed God and the Church in, making assumptions that may not be justifiable.

Your additions raise another interesting point. How much time is “not enough” to repent? Suppose the man had died a day after committing a mortal sin (and remember, I don’t automatically concede that the event in the story was a mortal sin, but let’s stipulate a definite mortal sin)? Supposed he had died a week after? A month? How much time is enough to repent? It took me 30 years to repent of some mortal sins I committed in my youth.

Just curious…

Sorry, Mike. I read the story as the man being destined for heaven based on the description by the poster of the question, and I presumed he would have gone to confession. I didn’t intend to misrepresent anyone.

 

[VociMike]

Sorry, Mike. I read the story as the man being destined for heaven based on the description by the poster of the question, and I presumed he would have gone to confession. I didn’t intend to misrepresent anyone.

I understand, but I am arguing that this made-up story may not in fact be possible. The essence of the story is a man who profoundly loves God, then profoundly rejects Him, and who dies (rather, who God allows to die) just moments before he profoundly loves Him again. I just don’t see this conforming to anybody’s reality. It’s like making up a story where Jesus commits a sin, and asking what would have happened. The theology simply breaks down. It’s kind of like trying to divide by zero.

 

[VociMike]

Sorry, Mike. I read the story as the man being destined for heaven based on the description by the poster of the question, and I presumed he would have gone to confession. I didn’t intend to misrepresent anyone.

I understand, but I am arguing that this made-up story may not in fact be possible. The essence of the story is a man who profoundly loves God, then profoundly rejects Him, and who dies (rather, who God allows to die) just moments before he profoundly loves Him again. I just don’t see this conforming to anybody’s reality. It’s like making up a story where Jesus commits a sin, and asking what would have happened. The theology simply breaks down. It’s kind of like trying to divide by zero.

 

[Ramalama]

The “fight” I was referring to was the one between you and your wife… at least that’s what I thought I read…I’d have to look back at your original post I was replying to! Anyway…

It can be very difficult discerning God’s Truth when everyone seems to be saying something different at times. But, that’s because we each contain a “little” of ALL of God’s wisdom! We do and should look up to our priests, but you must remember they are human too. We can’t be greater than God and we shouldn’t desire to be… that’s why Satan has been condemned to hell. I can honestly say, I once questioned some of the beliefs of the Catholic Church, but that’s because I stopped thinking about the devil who opposes Him! If we fail to see the reality of the devil’s existence and his desire to deceive us/trick us into sin, just like Eve, then we open ourselves to be mislead in our Catholic faith, and that’s when we begin questioning it. Satan is truly out for the ruin of souls! Yours and mine… all of ours. But, once and for all, God sent His son, the Lamb of God to be sacrificed for our sins, because yes, he loves us that much. With an open heart, I listen to EWTN and I learn, because I WANT to understand the Truth of the Catholic faith… MY faith… better…so that I can defend it lovingly. That was another reason for questioning my faith… I didn’t know and still don’t know everything about it…I am still learning… and I have a long way to go! But, I will praying for the Holy Spirit to help you discern His Truth and Wisdom in your questioning of the Catholic faith. Do be open to when God might be humbling you that your way of thinking is not His…He humbles me all the time… often through my spouse!! I believe God is challenging your faith to grow stronger! And, I say that very lovingly… I do care for your soul… don’t let sin keep you from God! Trust in the Sacrament of Reconciliation! Then one day, you will hopefully be able to ask God face to face… all of these questions and get the answers directly from the source of all Truth!

That wasn’t a fight. She was angry with what we though Fr. Serpa was saying. The more upset she got the more upset I got!

Thank you for your kind words. Sometimes I react to people as though satan (I’m not going to capitalize that any more) is making my decisions. I sometimes throw up my hands and start to walk away from the thing I should be walking to! I wonder how much he has to do with it.

Thanks again.

 

[Tom]

It would seem (and please correct me if I’m wrong ) that I must judge the Catholic church and determine if I can follow its teachings. Is that wrong? Won’t I have to say next Easter that I agree with the teachings? Am I to simply say yes whether I believe it or not? Am I simply to accept the teachings, even if they don’t seem reasonable? Is my God given intelligence useless?

Ram, I have one suggestion (or warning). Be careful not to choose a religion because you can follow the teachings, as you put it. Look for the truth and adjust yourself to the truth. Judge the Catholic Church on its teachings and determine if it is teaching the truth, not on if you like what it teaches. Search Scripture, you’ll see only the Catholic Church teaches the full truth. When you find some area that troubles you look into the official teaching in the Catechism learn why she teaches what she does. You’ll find she always teaches the truth, perhaps not an easy way of life, Jesus never tells us it will be easy, actually He warns us it will be quite difficult to follow Him. Before you study, always pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you in your search. May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you.

 

[JustPray14]

Ram, I have one suggestion (or warning). Be careful not to choose a religion because you can follow the teachings, as you put it. Look for the truth and adjust yourself to the truth. Judge the Catholic Church on its teachings and determine if it is teaching the truth, not on if you like what it teaches. Search Scripture, you’ll see only the Catholic Church teaches the full truth. When you find some area that troubles you look into the official teaching in the Catechism learn why she teaches what she does. You’ll find she always teaches the truth, perhaps not an easy way of life, Jesus never tells us it will be easy, actually He warns us it will be quite difficult to follow Him. Before you study, always pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you in your search. May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you.

AMEN! I agree 100%. Beautifully said. Yes, WE are called to conversion… continually… until the day we die! NOT the Catholic Church, and NOT God. I was “blind”, but now I “see”…my eyes/heart have been opened that The Catholic Church teaches ONLY Truth (it was me, who had to come to accept it as Truth) and today I am proud to be Catholic! I get so excited to share about the Holy Spirit working in my life. We must be receptive of His message and accept when He is trying to humble us. He wants to lead all of us in Truth! It’s about full surrender… I struggle with that at times in areas of my life, but I know exactly what my Lord asks of me … to leave it all behind and follow Him. I’ve learned that it’s not just material items we must leave… it’s leaving behind my way of thinking and trusting in God’s way! His plan is perfect! What I am reminded of is that our Catholic Church is universal… the same Truth is spoken all around the world. Just a simple example, any Catholic Church you attend Mass at, you will hear the same readings for the day… we’re all on the same page. This I always knew, but at the age of 37 I actually taught an older Catholic this fact! We may be baptized Catholic, but do we continually seek further education beyond Confirmation? We need to encourage one another to keep educating ourselves in our Church’s teachings. I’ve learned to trust in the Holy Spirit to lead me to Truth, and the more I do, the more I see how the devil will try to put obstacles before us to make us believe otherwise (media, t.v. shows, and yes, Catholics who lack knowledge of their faith - and even other Christians that raise questions about our beliefs without having attempted to learn them and see they are Truth). The fact that we all don’t know our faith the same, should be a sign for every Catholic to want to get back to Church and back to educating themselves in their faith… so we can build a strong community of support and encouragement to LIVE the Truths of our faith while giving glory and praise to God! God is Good! I must confess, I did not always understand the contraceptive thing. I partially understood it. I would not do anything permanently to alter my body from having a baby. I knew that went against our Catholic faith, but even more so, it keeps us from living in union with God. It’s the lies of the devil putting fear into us to question “how can we afford to take care of them? It’s so expensive.” The devil makes us think 1 or 2 children (or worse, no children) is good enough, so WE can provide for them. But where is God in the equation then? God said be “fruitful and multiply” and that if He takes care of the littlest bird, would He not take care of us? Who should we be putting our trust in…lies of the devil? Other people who don’t trust God? Ourselves, because we lack putting our trust in God’s abilities? Or do we listen to the words of our Father and trust the Holy Spirit to lead us to the Truth? God will take care of us! I am happy that we have 4 children and we now practice NFP (yes, I have confessed my sins!). We, Catholics want to believe, but like Peter, we have a hard time stepping out of the boat onto the sea to walk to Jesus (to trust in Him). I, too, purchased the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Lord has led me also to a copy of Apologetics… all because He knows my heart and my desire to know His Truth! TRUST the Holy Spirit to show you the way! I think what I’m trying to share is that we can all come to accept all of the Church’s teachings as Truth, when we surrender ourselves to be led by the Holy Spirit… because with God, there is only one answer! As a result He might affirm us in our thinking, correct us when we are wrong, and sometimes teach us something we never even knew! “Obedience” is another word that comes to mind…

 

[JustPray14]

Ram, I have one suggestion (or warning). Be careful not to choose a religion because you can follow the teachings, as you put it. Look for the truth and adjust yourself to the truth. Judge the Catholic Church on its teachings and determine if it is teaching the truth, not on if you like what it teaches. Search Scripture, you’ll see only the Catholic Church teaches the full truth. When you find some area that troubles you look into the official teaching in the Catechism learn why she teaches what she does. You’ll find she always teaches the truth, perhaps not an easy way of life, Jesus never tells us it will be easy, actually He warns us it will be quite difficult to follow Him. Before you study, always pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you in your search. May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you.

AMEN! I agree 100%. Beautifully said. Yes, WE are called to conversion… continually… until the day we die! NOT the Catholic Church, and NOT God. I was “blind”, but now I “see”…my eyes/heart have been opened that The Catholic Church teaches ONLY Truth (it was me, who had to come to accept it as Truth) and today I am proud to be Catholic! I get so excited to share about the Holy Spirit working in my life. We must be receptive of His message and accept when He is trying to humble us. He wants to lead all of us in Truth! It’s about full surrender… I struggle with that at times in areas of my life, but I know exactly what my Lord asks of me … to leave it all behind and follow Him. I’ve learned that it’s not just material items we must leave… it’s leaving behind my way of thinking and trusting in God’s way! His plan is perfect! What I am reminded of is that our Catholic Church is universal… the same Truth is spoken all around the world. Just a simple example, any Catholic Church you attend Mass at, you will hear the same readings for the day… we’re all on the same page. This I always knew, but at the age of 37 I actually taught an older Catholic this fact! We may be baptized Catholic, but do we continually seek further education beyond Confirmation? We need to encourage one another to keep educating ourselves in our Church’s teachings. I’ve learned to trust in the Holy Spirit to lead me to Truth, and the more I do, the more I see how the devil will try to put obstacles before us to make us believe otherwise (media, t.v. shows, and yes, Catholics who lack knowledge of their faith - and even other Christians that raise questions about our beliefs without having attempted to learn them and see they are Truth). The fact that we all don’t know our faith the same, should be a sign for every Catholic to want to get back to Church and back to educating themselves in their faith… so we can build a strong community of support and encouragement to LIVE the Truths of our faith while giving glory and praise to God! God is Good! I must confess, I did not always understand the contraceptive thing. I partially understood it. I would not do anything permanently to alter my body from having a baby. I knew that went against our Catholic faith, but even more so, it keeps us from living in union with God. It’s the lies of the devil putting fear into us to question “how can we afford to take care of them? It’s so expensive.” The devil makes us think 1 or 2 children (or worse, no children) is good enough, so WE can provide for them. But where is God in the equation then? God said be “fruitful and multiply” and that if He takes care of the littlest bird, would He not take care of us? Who should we be putting our trust in…lies of the devil? Other people who don’t trust God? Ourselves, because we lack putting our trust in God’s abilities? Or do we listen to the words of our Father and trust the Holy Spirit to lead us to the Truth? God will take care of us! I am happy that we have 4 children and we now practice NFP (yes, I have confessed my sins!). We, Catholics want to believe, but like Peter, we have a hard time stepping out of the boat onto the sea to walk to Jesus (to trust in Him). I, too, purchased the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Lord has led me also to a copy of Apologetics… all because He knows my heart and my desire to know His Truth! TRUST the Holy Spirit to show you the way! I think what I’m trying to share is that we can all come to accept all of the Church’s teachings as Truth, when we surrender ourselves to be led by the Holy Spirit… because with God, there is only one answer! As a result He might affirm us in our thinking, correct us when we are wrong, and sometimes teach us something we never even knew! “Obedience” is another word that comes to mind…