Not at all. But, I expect the courts to be just and fair. If this is the first crime, the man has led a good and honorable life, I might expect the court to sentence the man to 25 years. If the court was infinitely merciful, I might even go for 18 years. I think eternal damnation would be a little harsh!It only takes a moment or two to put a bullet in someone’s head. Does that mean that a life sentence is unfair?
My understanding is that it also takes alot of effort to avail one self of the grace needed to enter into heaven. It is not just sins of commission, but sins of omission, by which one can send them self to hell.A mortal sin takes a LOT of effort to commit. …It’s no one’s fault but the sinner, and that is the chance he took by CHOOSING to commit a mortal sin.
If this makes Catholicism not the religion for you, then you don’t really believe in or respect free will.
Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25: 41-46He IS infinitely just and merciful. He gives endless mercy whenever we ASK for it. But He is also infinitely just. Being just means keeping your word. If God said He gave us the gift of free will, meaning that we have the power to act outside what He would have us do, and then did not actually give us free will, He would be a liar! God cannot be a liar if He is just.Yes, we agree on this. When we’re talking about eternal damnation, “serious” is not a serious enough word!
Thank you for the discussion, I appreciate your time, knowledge and patience, but I still have to say I cannot square this with an infinitely just, merciful God.
How merciful do you think the victim would consider this “mercy”? How merciful do you think Jesus will be, considering what He went thru for me?I might expect the court to sentence the man to 25 years. If the court was infinitely merciful, I might even go for 18 years.
I will, Tom. Thanks.Ram, again, if you haven’t studied the Catechism concerning sin PLEASE do. An online site for the Catechism is : scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Start at paragraph 1849 to 1876.
God gave us a way out. He became a man and ransomed us with his own blood. If we reject that ramsom, it’s our own fault if we end up in hell.Not at all. But, I expect the courts to be just and fair. If this is the first crime, the man has led a good and honorable life, I might expect the court to sentence the man to 25 years. If the court was infinitely merciful, I might even go for 18 years. I think eternal damnation would be a little harsh!
Given that, if it was truly believed, no one would ever commit a mortal sin. You would have to be out of your mind - and if you were, it wouldn’t be a mortal sin. No, this is a fallacy. Because we have in many cases lost the ‘sense of sin’, we have falsely elevated our concepts of our own humanity. It appears some people truly believe that humans are so inherently right and good that they would ‘choose’ to reject the idea of sinning against God and its consequence of damnation–that humans are so perfectly rational that to choose sin would require them to be insane’. This is truly an “enlightenment” concept and an elevation of man to ‘godhood’. Again, even the standard/judgment you give is a human standard, and you just don’t seem to see that what you are saying is, “If God really does punish us for one mortal sin, he isn’t really ‘just’ because if were God, I would never, never do such an ‘unjust’ thing as to condemn a ‘good’ person for one little old mortal sin. Yet we know it happens all the time - because we’re human, and destined to sin. That’s what doesn’t seem right to me. Again, many things don’t seem ‘right’ to us–we are human. We actually are not ‘destined’ to sin, you know. We have concupisence–an inherent tendency to sin, but that does not equal ‘destiny’ to sin. And it doesn’t mean that God is ‘stacking the deck against us’, or that He should have been considerate or should ‘think about all the good somebody does.’ Remember what is said in Scripture. . .If you do everything perfectly which is required of you, say, "I am an unworthy servant; I have done only what is required of me.”
The church is saying that, no matter how good I’ve been, not matter how much good I’ve done, it may have all been for naught if I get unlucky. No, the Church–through the Holy Spirit’s guidance and through the words of Christ Himself and His Heavenly Father, is saying that your ‘goodness’ and your ‘deeds’ do not earn heaven for you. And it is not ‘unlucky’ to sin mortally. It is a free choice.
Whether we like something or not has no impact on whether something is true or not. If it is true, it doesn’t matter if you do not like it. If it is false, it doesn’t matter if you personally love it. Feelings are no guide to the truth or falsity of a teaching.I understand it, and you might be right. I don’t like it. (But what does that matter - huh?)
My point was God does not ordain sin, but he allows us to abuse freedom and choose it. Death may come at any time. Always be prepared.Good point, Fix. I understand.
Can you clarify this? Are you saying He permitted the man to sin and ordained the heart attack? (I’m not playing rhetorical chess here, just trying to understand your response.)
Yes - that’s why I said “But what does that matter?” I understand that.Whether we like something or not has no impact on whether something is true or not. If it is true, it doesn’t matter if you do not like it. If it is false, it doesn’t matter if you personally love it. Feelings are no guide to the truth or falsity of a teaching.
BINGO.don’t believe I should be punished forever!
I disagree. Feelings or perceptions are a guide to discern the truth of things. The demon possessed humans who recognized the Lord felt His presence before He cured them.Whether we like something or not has no impact on whether something is true or not. If it is true, it doesn’t matter if you do not like it. If it is false, it doesn’t matter if you personally love it. Feelings are no guide to the truth or falsity of a teaching.
How about 10,000 good deeds and one bad? He should spend eternity in hell? I don’t think so. That’s the rub.
Aren’t these quotes suggesting that we can earn our way into heaven through good works?I need to clarify that. I meant I should not be punished forever if I have led an otherwise good life.
And they also encourage us to commit sin because “I feel so strongly about this that it MUST be all right.”Our feelings help guide us. They protect us from commiting sin becasue we know it is wrong even if we are sometimes not told somethingis wrong.
After death our will is set. There is no changing at that point.If what is in each’s heart is the key, after the moment of death, the upright person would most likely recant, just as the evil person might as well.
Are you saying this man would never repent? The thrust of the story is that he is a good man who would repent, but dies first. He is not repentant at the time of death – he is still in the midst of the sin. The presumption is he would appreciate the effects of his sin moments later.I
BINGO.
Think about it. A person in unrepented mortal sin has not only rejected God once in the action, he rejects him forever. He will not repent, not in 10 years, 10,000, 10 million. . .never. That’s a fact, whether it seems ‘rational’ or not.
So can be being obstinate. I know becasue I know.But for all that, for all the good that feelings can sometimes ‘help’ with, they can also influence for evil. And that is why feelings, on their own, are a poor guide, IMO.
ExactlyI think there is a finer point being missed with this question. If at the last moment of life a purely evil person recants and recognizes the Truth, he is guaranteed the reward denied the upright person who in the final moments lapses due to something else. If what is in each’s heart is the key, after the moment of death, the upright person would most likely recant, just as the evil person might as well.
We know the sure teaching because it is from Christ. Are you saying it is impossible to know what Christ teaches?So can be being obstinate. I know becasue I know.
The Jewish leaders in the time of Christ had about 1500 years to become so sure of their understanding of the Law that they made it so difficult for anyone to enter the Kingdom.
We have had almost 2000 years. I believe God protect the Jewsish Law, just as He protects Catholic Law.
Do you hold any possibility your position on this, as may be the original response is wrong? Any chance?
Annas and Caiaphas were sure because it came from Moses.We know the sure teaching because it is from Christ. Are you saying it is impossible to know what Christ teaches?