An Eternity in Hell for a Moment of Sin

[Ramalama]

Aren’t these quotes suggesting that we can earn our way into heaven through good works?

At what point does the scale tip the other way? Does viewing it this way not strip the salvation from Jesus of any real meaning?

Steve, I’m new here and just learning how to be a Catholic (and a Christian for that matter!). I assume from your question that good works will not assist me in getting to heaven. I didn’t know that. If I was a calloused individual I would ask, “Then why would I do them?”

 

[setter]

Are you saying this man would never repent? The thrust of the story is that he is a good man who would repent, but dies first. He is not repentant at the time of death – he is still in the midst of the sin. The presumption is he would appreciate the effects of his sin moments later.

It is my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) that at the moment of one’s death, God in His infinite wisdom and mercy has given that individual the fullness of opportunity to repent and believe so as to enjoy life eternal. So yes, God’s timining for our death is ordained and indisputable.

And yes, you are correct. I do not expect to be damned forever if I die in this condition. It will be very difficult for me to say I agree with the beliefs of the Catholic church if this is what it results in.

You are guilty of projecting your finite human understanding (and sentiment) upon the infinite mercy and justice of God.

 

[VociMike]

Ramalama, I think you need to clarify your beliefs in this matter.

Do you believe that one can lose (throw away, more like) one’s salvation? Or does God remove that choice from us?

Do you believe that one can do so with a single act, or does it require some number of acts, or some number of years? Please explain your position.

Do you believe that those who have freely chosen hell would be happier (or less unhappy) in heaven? Why or why not?

 

[Tom]

Steve, I’m new here and just learning how to be a Catholic (and a Christian for that matter!). I assume from your question that good works will not assist me in getting to heaven. I didn’t know that. If I was a calloused individual I would ask, “Then why would I do them?”

Good works or deeds do not earn us anything. They do not pay a debt. We do them from love and obedience. Jesus tells us “if” we love Him we will do the deeds or works He tells us. We do these “works” out of love not out of law. This is a common misunderstanding, again I refer you to the Catechism. It’s really worth reading.

 

[JustPray14]

First, I appreciate your replies. Please note that I’m really trying to understand, not just debate.

In Fr. Serpa’s story (in the link’ed post) the man, presumably a just, holy Catholic, commits a mortal sin, maybe his first in decades. Lets assume that if he had time to think about what he did he would repentant and ask for forgiveness. Unfortunately, he dies moments later.

Some of you have implied God would judge the man’s entire life - that sounds reasonable and what I expected. That’s not what Fr. Serpa said. He said he would spend eternity in hell. I can’t say how wrong that seems to me.

Protestations that God is just and will do the right thing work for me. Is Fr. Serpa misinformed?

Let me add a bit of a personal note. My wife and I, both Catholic candidates, were discussing this last night. She got angry, saying maybe this isn’t the religion for her. I didn’t go that far, but the more I think about this, the more angry I get! Help!

Not sure what your fight was exactly about, but when we are wondering/questioning whether we will or won’t go to heaven one day, I believe that is the Holy Spirit calling us to repent to come to Him in the Sacrament of Reconciliation… (if you have any question or doubt of where you will spend eternity, it is better to confess, so that you can move forward). Through repentence of our sins, we are saying to God, “You are greater than I, and I should love you above all things (yes, even our spouses!). Forgive me of my sins and help me to live according to Your will.” That is what humbling ourselves before the Lord in the Sacrament of Reconciliation means. One thing, we must also remember is that we are human… we are all sinners. To say you don’t need to confess your sins, is to say you never sin and then you must be Jesus or Mary in my book! I trust that Fr. Serpa, not knowing him personally myself, genuinely cares for all of our souls. If we begin to question whether this sin or that sin (committed only once or many times) will or won’t keep us from eternity with our God, then we are failing to understand that any sin (even the smallest venial one) offends our God, because He is Love. And our love of God should help us to use our freewill to choose to do right and to serve him. But… God is good and if/when we fail and fall to sin, He is waiting to meet with us to extend His mercy in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The more often we go to confession, the more graces we receive to live righteously and before you know it, you have died to yourself and are living for God. And then you will experience great peace in your heart and soul. The way I see it, why set the bar low… set it high to live for God… I used to wonder these things until I finally received God’s mercy, love and grace through confessing my sins over years of not having gone to confession… just because I was ashamed of my sins. So, at one point I was not trusting fully in God’s mercy. That alone is a sin… not trusting in God’s mercy! Now, I want to go to confession all the time! And, though my sins may be venial in nature, that’s how much I want NOTHING to separate me from God! The Catholic faith isn’t about condemning souls, but saving them… and I find such joy in knowing my faith does help us form a strong conscience! It is mortal sin that could condemn of from spending eternity in heaven… why risk holding onto those sins on account of pride or shame or lack of trust in God’s mercy? Yes, God is a loving, merciful God! Trust in Him!

Man cannot comprehend the love and mercy of God, because man fails to extend it to one another on earth! That’s the devil at work and we must overcome evil! Keep praying for the Holy Spirit to lead you in Spirit & Truth! God bless your Easter Season!

 

[Ramalama]

It is my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) that at the moment of one’s death, God in His infinite wisdom and mercy has given that individual the fullness of opportunity to repent and believe so as to enjoy life eternal. So yes, God’s timining for our death is ordained and indisputable.

You are guilty of projecting your finite human understanding (and sentiment) upon the infinite mercy and justice of God.

It would seem (and please correct me if I’m wrong ) that I must judge the Catholic church and determine if I can follow its teachings. Is that wrong? Won’t I have to say next Easter that I agree with the teachings? Am I to simply say yes whether I believe it or not? Am I simply to accept the teachings, even if they don’t seem reasonable? Is my God given intelligence useless?

 

[setter]

It would seem (and please correct me if I’m wrong ) that I must judge the Catholic church and determine if I can follow its teachings. Is that wrong? Won’t I have to say next Easter that I agree with the teachings? Am I to simply say yes whether I believe it or not? Am I simply to accept the teachings, even if they don’t seem reasonable? Is my God given intelligence useless?

The call to conversion and full unity with the Church is the work of the Holy Spirit. Conversion does not stop once one makes their profession of faith …believe me, as a cradle Catholic, I only know too well.

 

[Ramalama]

Ramalama, I think you need to clarify your beliefs in this matter.

Do you believe that one can lose (throw away, more like) one’s salvation? Or does God remove that choice from us?

Do you believe that one can do so with a single act, or does it require some number of acts, or some number of years? Please explain your position.

Do you believe that those who have freely chosen hell would be happier (or less unhappy) in heaven? Why or why not?

I agree I have to clarify my position - that’s what I’m here for, to learn.

Of course you can throw away salvation. I was a atheist for years. Had I died during that period I would expect (now) that I would be damned to hell forever.

Yes, it can be done in a single act - I assume that is any mortal sin. I find it hard to believe however, that if I die in a state of sin, that God, who knows the future and knows I would eventually repent, perhaps within minutes, would condemn me to hell forever.

I don’t know what it matters to the discussion, but I would expect a sole burning in hell to accept Heaven if given the opportunity, just because being in hell is, well, hell!

 

[fix]

Annas and Caiaphas were sure because it came from Moses.

No, I am not saying it is impossible to know what He teaches, I am suggesting we might not fully comprehend His teachings.

But, Christ is speaking through His Church. He said he who hears you hears Me.

 

[DallasCatholic]

I agree I have to clarify my position - that’s what I’m here for, to learn.

Of course you can throw away salvation. I was a atheist for years. Had I died during that period I would expect (now) that I would be damned to hell forever.

Yes, it can be done in a single act - I assume that is any mortal sin. I find it hard to believe however, that if I die in a state of sin, that God, who knows the future and knows I would eventually repent, perhaps within minutes, would condemn me to hell forever.

I don’t know what it matters to the discussion, but I would expect a sole burning in hell to accept Heaven if given the opportunity, just because being in hell is, well, hell!

I am wondering if your misunderstanding is regarding the Sacrament of Reconciliation. In almost every instance confessing and receiving absolution from a Priest is necessary. HOWEVER, God (and the Church) realize that sometimes that is not possible. So, if a Catholic can perform a perfect act of contrition then God will forgive their sin. In the story about the man who was killed by a fall from a horse, he apparently made a perfect act of contrition before he hit the ground and was killed. It seems from your posts that you did not understand this point while the rest of us assumed that you did. Does that help?

BTW, would that be a dover sole or petrale sole that was burning in hell?

 

[Ramalama]

Not sure what your fight was exactly about, but when we are wondering/questioning whether we will or won’t go to heaven one day, I believe that is the Holy Spirit calling us to repent to come to Him in the Sacrament of Reconciliation… (if you have any question or doubt of where you will spend eternity, it is better to confess, so that you can move forward). Through repentence of our sins, we are saying to God, “You are greater than I, and I should love you above all things (yes, even our spouses!). Forgive me of my sins and help me to live according to Your will.” That is what humbling ourselves before the Lord in the Sacrament of Reconciliation means. One thing, we must also remember is that we are human… we are all sinners. To say you don’t need to confess your sins, is to say you never sin and then you must be Jesus or Mary in my book! I trust that Fr. Serpa, not knowing him personally myself, genuinely cares for all of our souls. If we begin to question whether this sin or that sin (committed only once or many times) will or won’t keep us from eternity with our God, then we are failing to understand that any sin (even the smallest venial one) offends our God, because He is Love. And our love of God should help us to use our freewill to choose to do right and to serve him. But… God is good and if/when we fail and fall to sin, He is waiting to meet with us to extend His mercy in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The more often we go to confession, the more graces we receive to live righteously and before you know it, you have died to yourself and are living for God. And then you will experience great peace in your heart and soul. The way I see it, why set the bar low… set it high to live for God… I used to wonder these things until I finally received God’s mercy, love and grace through confessing my sins over years of not having gone to confession… just because I was ashamed of my sins. So, at one point I was not trusting fully in God’s mercy. That alone is a sin… not trusting in God’s mercy! Now, I want to go to confession all the time! And, though my sins may be venial in nature, that’s how much I want NOTHING to separate me from God! The Catholic faith isn’t about condemning souls, but saving them… and I find such joy in knowing my faith does help us form a strong conscience! It is mortal sin that could condemn of from spending eternity in heaven… why risk holding onto those sins on account of pride or shame or lack of trust in God’s mercy? Yes, God is a loving, merciful God! Trust in Him!

Man cannot comprehend the love and mercy of God, because man fails to extend it to one another on earth! That’s the devil at work and we must overcome evil! Keep praying for the Holy Spirit to lead you in Spirit & Truth! God bless your Easter Season!

JustPray, I’m sorry if it sounded like a fight - I don’t think any of us are fighting. It is difficult with the medium to communicate effectively though, and a hundred plus posts are difficult to go through.

In the scenario, an otherwise good man died during the commission of a mortal sin. Fr. Serpa appeared to say he would spend eternity in hell. I simply said I had difficult reconciling this with a merciful God.

That’s when the posts started.

 

[VociMike]

I agree I have to clarify my position - that’s what I’m here for, to learn.

Of course you can throw away salvation. I was a atheist for years. Had I died during that period I would expect (now) that I would be damned to hell forever.

Maybe, maybe not. The Church does not teach that all atheists go to hell. But she does teach that God never robs us of our free will to choose Him, or choose against Him.

Yes, it can be done in a single act - I assume that is any mortal sin. I find it hard to believe however, that if I die in a state of sin, that God, who knows the future and knows I would eventually repent, perhaps within minutes, would condemn me to hell forever.

Then it sounds as though you don’t trust God. It sounds as though you think God will knowingly let a person, who would have repented, die without the opportunity to repent. Heck, even you or I wouldn’t do that, so why in the world do you imagine that God would? If you can’t trust that God would provide that simple mercy, how can you trust Him at all?

I don’t know what it matters to the discussion, but I would expect a sole burning in hell to accept Heaven if given the opportunity, just because being in hell is, well, hell!

I brought that up because you are looking at hell through the eyes of somebody who wants to be in heaven. But try to look at hell through the eyes of somebody for whom the eternal love and perfection and holiness and self-giving of God, and of all the angels and saints, is worse than anything that hell has to offer. It is said that the gates of hell are locked not from the outside but from the inside.

 

[Ramalama]

I am wondering if your misunderstanding is regarding the Sacrament of Reconciliation. In almost every instance confessing and receiving absolution from a Priest is necessary. HOWEVER, God (and the Church) realize that sometimes that is not possible. So, if a Catholic can perform a perfect act of contrition then God will forgive their sin. In the story about the man who was killed by a fall from a horse, he apparently made a perfect act of contrition before he hit the ground and was killed. It seems from your posts that you did not understand this point while the rest of us assumed that you did. Does that help?

BTW, would that be a dover sole or petrale sole that was burning in hell?

Re the “sole”, oops!

I thought I did understand the point. The man was committing adultery and died. He didn’t have even an instant to repent. I don’t think the man and the horse apply.

(I can’t believe I said sole!)

 

[DallasCatholic]

Re the “sole”, oops!

I thought I did understand the point. The man was committing adultery and died. He didn’t have even an instant to repent. I don’t think the man and the horse apply.

(I can’t believe I said sole!)

Absolutely the man and the horse apply. There is in almost every case a moment before death and in that moment you can repent. The big caveat, as posted earlier, presuming on God’s mercy is a sin.

 

[Ramalama]

Maybe, maybe not. The Church does not teach that all atheists go to hell. But she does teach that God never robs us of our free will to choose Him, or choose against Him.

Then it sounds as though you don’t trust God. It sounds as though you think God will knowingly let a person, who would have repented, die without the opportunity to repent. Heck, even you or I wouldn’t do that, so why in the world do you imagine that God would? If you can’t trust that God would provide that simple mercy, how can you trust Him at all?

I brought that up because you are looking at hell through the eyes of somebody who wants to be in heaven. But try to look at hell through the eyes of somebody for whom the eternal love and perfection and holiness and self-giving of God, and of all the angels and saints, is worse than anything that hell has to offer. It is said that the gates of hell are locked not from the outside but from the inside.

Mike - NO! I do trust God. That’s what I’m saying. Fr. Serpa says the man is rotting in hell. I’m saying I don’t believe that. God wouldn’t do that. This is a good man who failed in a moment of temptation. He loves God, but he’s human and made a mistake. Given a few more minutes of life he would understand and repent. He didn’t get the few minutes. Don’t send him to hell forever!

 

[Ramalama]

Absolutely the man and the horse apply. There is in almost every case a moment before death and in that moment you can repent. The big caveat, as posted earlier, presuming on God’s mercy is a sin.

“. . . in almost every case . . .” What I’m talking about is the other case. The church is saying that in the other case the guy’s soul (please note the correct spelling) is lost to hell. That cannot be right!

 

[DallasCatholic]

“. . . in almost every case . . .” What I’m talking about is the other case. The church is saying that in the other case the guy’s soul (please note the correct spelling) is lost to hell. That cannot be right!

Can you give me an instance where there is not a moment before death? I was being charitable with “in almost every case” because I hadn’t had time to think about possible scenarios. I can’t think of any off of the top of my head.

If you have committed mortal sin and you die unrepentant then you are going to hell. Have you had the time to read the Catechism as Tom suggested? Maybe you just aren’t getting the fact that mortal sin is intentionally severing your relationship with God…it’s serious business. You definitly should read the Catechism regarding justification and grace because you cannot earn your way to heaven. That seems to be the sticking point for you…I think.

 

[VociMike]

Mike - NO! I do trust God. That’s what I’m saying. Fr. Serpa says the man in rotting in hell. I’m saying I don’t believe that. God wouldn’t do that. This is a good man who failed in a moment of temptation. He loves God, but he’s human and made a mistake. Given a few more minutes of life he would understand and repent. He didn’t get the few minutes. Don’t send him to hell forever!

So what exactly is your objection then? We agree that it is possible, even through a single act, to reject God’s gift of salvation. And we agree that God would not let a God-loving man die and go to hell who, but for a few more moments or seconds, would have repented. So I’m not sure where the problem lies.

Let me tell you another story, this time a personal one. I once told a small (I thought) lie, for (I thought) the very best of reasons. Later I found that my little lie had gotten somebody chewed out by his boss unjustly. At that moment, when the actual gravity of my tiny lie was revealed to me, I was horrified. I was, literally, in horror over what I had done. Of course I apologized and made amends ASAP (the next day), but for that entire night I could barely sleep. I suffered (was privileged to suffer, I say) a taste of the torments of the damned for that one night. That was God giving me a little mid-course correction in my life, and boy did He get my attention!

My point? That one who truly loves God, when they comprehend what they have done (and mortal sin requires comprehension), do not “eventually get around” to remorse. When their eyes are opened, the remorse floods them, surrounds them, engulfs them. That is the reality that your hypothetical story does not encompass. That is the reality, the reality of God’s mercy, that ensures that God’s justice will never be injustice.

 

[Ramalama]

Can you give me an instance where there is not a moment before death? I was being charitable with “in almost every case” because I hadn’t had time to think about possible scenarios. I can’t think of any off of the top of my head.

If you have committed mortal sin and you die unrepentant then you are going to hell. Have you had the time to read the Catechism as Tom suggested? Maybe you just aren’t getting the fact that mortal sin is intentionally severing your relationship with God…it’s serious business. You definitly should read the Catechism regarding justification and grace because you cannot earn your way to heaven. That seems to be the sticking point for you…I think.

This is the text of Fr. Serpa’s response in the post in question.

"Hi Michael,

I wouldn’t consider that lie to be a mortal sin. A more serious lie could be. But not participating in the foot washing is not a major item. Let’s say that he saw an old girl friend and stopped to have coffee with her, got rather chummy and lied about the fact that he is married. That would be a more serious lie and a mortal sin.

So He gets into the car and is killed at the next intersection. If he is able to ask pardon of the Lord in the last seconds of his life, he can be forgiven and go to Purgatory. If not, he will go to hell for all eternity.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P."

The sinner apparently did not have time to repent. That’s what I’m talking about.

In answer to your other question, no, I haven’t read them all yet. I’m working on them.

 

[VociMike]

“. . . in almost every case . . .” What I’m talking about is the other case. The church is saying that in the other case the guy’s soul (please note the correct spelling) is lost to hell. That cannot be right!

The Church has never, ever said that a man whom God knows would be repentent in a few moments, will nevertheless be allowed to die and go to hell by God. There is no such teaching. The Church has never taught that anybody will go to hell “by mistake” or “by bad luck” (in this case, the bad luck of dying in the few moments of unrepentance).