Animals Are Food, or Are They

[Trelow]

Patjoe:

And I do believe that if we make the decision to quit the violence involved in eating meat, we might be able to grow closer to God.

I dare you to find a hunter in any culture who is an atheist.

There may be a whacko here and there, but it is one of the greatest ways to immerse yourself in God’s wonder. You see his order ad beauty, the way He created it.

I beseech you, try it a few times, the intimacy with God, nature, and animals will net you much greater respect for all three that setting them aside as something to be cherished from afar.

Jesus came so that we may eat Him and drink His blood. If we can eat our creator, can we not eat the gifts He entrusted in our care?

Mark 7:14-23
And he called the people to him again, and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him.” And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man.For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man.”

 

[Trelow]

Patjoe:

And I do believe that if we make the decision to quit the violence involved in eating meat, we might be able to grow closer to God.

I dare you to find a hunter in any culture who is an atheist.

There may be a whacko here and there, but it is one of the greatest ways to immerse yourself in God’s wonder. You see his order ad beauty, the way He created it.

I beseech you, try it a few times, the intimacy with God, nature, and animals will net you much greater respect for all three that setting them aside as something to be cherished from afar.

Jesus came so that we may eat Him and drink His blood. If we can eat our creator, can we not eat the gifts He entrusted in our care?

And besides did Jesus not deal with the issue of what you can munch?

Mark 7:14-23
And he called the people to him again, and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him.” And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man.For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man.”

 

[TAS2000]

But you must admit that figuatively speaking He went to a lot of trouble to create all the varieties of animals just to have them used as or regarded solely as man’s food

Again, logically the same can be said for plants. Just ask anyone who gardens. they are not “solely man’s food”. They are beautiful, and should be appreciated on many levels. Both plants AND animals.

And the killing of any animal, including man, can eventually make one crass and closed to the acceptance of the gentle life of Jesus.
Totally not a theology of vegetarianism

Again, logically, why the difference between killing plants and killing animals? Are not both alive? Are not both God’s beautiful creatures? In case you are not aware, they have done scientific studies that show when you damage a plant there is a recordable reaction from the plant. Dare we say, pain? That might be stretching it, but WHY do you feel there is something inherantly more noble and greater about eating one type of living being than another? Why should killing one vs. another be less crass? Simply because one can cry out and the other can’t?

I further believe that food, all food, can represent a stumbling block for us and that the holiest among us require very little food for their daily sustenance. God supplies them with what is needed to live, both for body and soul.

So if all food is bad, than why is limiting yourself to only vegatables somehow better than just limiting yourself to small amounts of everything? This whole argument stems from a “holy than thou” attitude about something you don’t agree with. If you want to eat vegatables, good for you. But don’t try to pass yourself off as better or more noble because you do.

 

[fix]

misericordie:

No one ever answered my question of: has anyone ever tasted Buffalo/bison burgers?? They taste yummy! I had them in Colorado.

It is good and sold in my local supermarket along with ostrich.

 

[fix]

TAS2000:

Again, logically the same can be said for plants. Just ask anyone who gardens. they are not “solely man’s food”. They are beautiful, and should be appreciated on many levels. Both plants AND animals.
Again, logically, why the difference between killing plants and killing animals? Are not both alive? Are not both God’s beautiful creatures? In case you are not aware, they have done scientific studies that show when you damage a plant there is a recordable reaction from the plant. Dare we say, pain? That might be stretching it, but WHY do you feel there is something inherantly more noble and greater about eating one type of living being than another? Why should killing one vs. another be less crass? Simply because one can cry out and the other can’t?
So if all food is bad, than why is limiting yourself to only vegatables somehow better than just limiting yourself to small amounts of everything? This whole argument stems from a “holy than thou” attitude about something you don’t agree with. If you want to eat vegatables, good for you. But don’t try to pass yourself off as better or more noble because you do.

Good points. I can’t see the argument that killing animals is wrong. There is no teaching from the Church that vegetarianism is superior. Being a good steward does not mean not killing animals.

I think Fr. Rutler got it just right.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ahimsa:

Animal sacrifice in religious ritual is often used as a means to satisfy the demands of a Deity. In Christianity, that satisfaction was accomlished without killing animals; similarly in Islam. I was curious as to whether you supported animal sacrifice as a means of satisfying the Deity.

What do you mean by “the Diety?”

The Christian belief is that God no longer requires animal sacrifice (but He did once – to say otherwise is to reject the Old Testament, and that is Marcionism.)

On the other hand, adherants of other religious believe differently. And since their actions are based on their BELIEFS, to pressure them to change their actions is to attack their beliefs. And THAT would be religious persecution.

 

[RobedWithLight]

Patjoe:

fix,

One pleasure of the flesh is the eating of meat. But for us to eat meat, we must take the life of another of God’s creatures. We cannot do that without some degree of violence, typically unnecessary except for our desire to eat the creature’s flesh. Violence is not an attribute of God and is not an attribute of the fully spiritual person.

We also know from God’s own words that in the ideal life on earth, all creatures will be gentle and unhurtful to one another. If that is the ideal, anything that has opposing characteristics is not what we are striving for. And if we voluntarily turn away from the violence, we become more like God.

Killing an animal for food is not violence. Pretty soon, we would hear these people say that we shouldn’t use disinfectants because it kills microbes who are also animals.

Think about it. Even Jesus ate fish.

Gerry

 

[vern_humphrey]

RobedWithLight:

Killing an animal for food is not violence. Pretty soon, we would hear these people say that we shouldn’t use disinfectants because it kills microbes who are also animals.

Think about it. Even Jesus ate fish.

Gerry

He ate fish, He ate lamb (which is the traditional paschal meal), He allowed the Gadarene swine to be stampeded over a cliff. He participated in animal sacrifice.

Vegetarianism isn’t Christian at all – it’s Buddist.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

fix:

It is good and sold in my local supermarket along with ostrich.

I agree, buffalo burgers, ostrich, and emu. Had 'em all, love 'em all. My favorite is still wild venison though. “Collecting” it is half the fun.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Scott_Lafrance:

I agree, buffalo burgers, ostrich, and emu. Had 'em all, love 'em all. My favorite is still wild venison though. “Collecting” it is half the fun.

I once saw a cartoon of a Neanderthal woman wearing a T-shirt that said "gather til you drop."http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

The joke, of course, is that a modern woman’s behavior while shopping is identical to how women in hunter-gatherer societies behave, strolling along together, picking up this, putting it down, examining something else, and so on.

Now if the gathering instinct is so powerful and enjoyable among modern women, is it any wonder men still like to hunt?

 

[Ella]

hmmm. I don’t have a problem with hunting. I don’t have a problem with eating meat. I DO have a problem with cruelty to animals. Raising farm animals in cruel conditions is not right. That’s all I’m saying. And yet again, please go to www.themeatrix.com. Factory farming is not good for the animals, the environment, or us.

 

[Trelow]

Ella:

hmmm. I don’t have a problem with hunting. I don’t have a problem with eating meat. I DO have a problem with cruelty to animals. Raising farm animals in cruel conditions is not right. That’s all I’m saying. And yet again, please go to www.themeatrix.com. Factory farming is not good for the animals, the environment, or us.

Iv’e been in factory farms. Not that big a deal, it’s livestock.

Do you have any idea how many animals are killed a year by combines harvesting grain?

Davis has found evidence that suggests that the unseen losses of field animals are very high. One study documented that a single operation, mowing alfalfa, caused a 50 percent reduction in the gray-tailed vole population. Mortality rates increase with every pass of the tractor to plow, plant, and harvest. Additions of herbicides and pesticides cause additional harm to animals of the field.

eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html

Accurate numbers of mortality aren’t available, but Tew and Macdonald (1993) reported that wood mouse population density in cereal fields dropped from 25/ha preharvest to less than 5/ha postharvest. This decrease was attributed to migration out of the field and to mortality. Therefore, it may be reasonable to estimate mortality of 10 animals/ha in conventional corn and soybean production.

There are 120 million ha of harvested cropland in the US (USDA, 2000). If all of that land was used to produce a plant-based diet, and if 10 animals of the field are killed per ha per year, then 10 x 120 million = 1200 million or 1.2 billion would be killed to produce a vegan diet. If half of that land (60 million) was converted to forage production and if forage production systems decreased the number of animals of the field killed per year by 50% (5 per year per ha), the number of animals killed would be:

1. 60 million ha of traditional agriculture x 10 animals per ha = 0.6 billion animals killed.
2. 60 million ha of forage production x 5 animals of the field = 0.3 billion.

Therefore, in this hypothetical example, the change to include some forage-based animal agriculture would result in the loss of only 0.9 billion animals of the field instead of 1.2 billion to support a vegan diet. As a result, the LHP would suggest that we are morally obligated to consume a diet of ruminant products, not a vegan diet, because it would result in the death of fewer animals of the field.

wildlifedamagecontrol.com/animalrights/leastharm.htm

 

[Trelow]

Next tiem you fry up some tofu, think of all the poor little mouses without thier mommies.

Not to mention the mouse bits, just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

:bigyikes:

 

[Ella]

Trenlow, what a Christian response.

 

[Trelow]

Ella:

Trenlow, what a Christian response.

Just showing you that dirt farming hurts animals too, many more animals btw.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Trelow:

Just showing you that dirt farming hurts animals too, many more animals btw.

Absolutely right. For example, studies show that 90% of the life forms killed by agricultural pesticides are not the target species, and 50% of all pesticides wind up “missing” the targeted field.

Pesticides and fertilizers in run-off waters kill many other species – often by making algae grow, and robbing water of its oxygen.

Think of the loss of habitat – when you clear a field (for agriculture or for a subdivision), the animals that live there are hurt. They can’t find new homes any more than a human could if his home were bulldozed.

 

[Ella]

What subject do you want to talk about, food animals or animals in the wild or farming… which non sequitur?

Again - there are animals suffering in factory farms. If you don’t believe me then research it. Don’t just read the cynics on here - research it, use the Internet, find out the truth.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ella:

What subject do you want to talk about, food animals or animals in the wild or farming… which non sequitur?

Apparently it’s okay to poison or starve animals, but not slaughter them?

Ella:

Again - there are animals suffering in factory farms. If you don’t believe me then research it. Don’t just read the cynics on here - research it, use the Internet, find out the truth.

Well, I went to the site you posted, and found an activist piece, not on farming but on raising fur animals. So who’s making with the non-sequitur in that case?

 

[Ella]

Here is why the fur farm is not a non-sequitur. I am against factory farming of animals. The fur farm is one example. Poultry farms are another. Whether for food or for vanity clothing, cruelty to animals is wrong.

 

[Trelow]

Ella:

Here is why the fur farm is not a non-sequitur. I am against factory farming of animals. The fur farm is one example. Poultry farms are another. Whether for food or for vanity clothing, cruelty to animals is wrong.

What do you define as “cruelty” in your opinion, as an expert of farming?