Animals Are Food, or Are They

[fix]

Patjoe:

Thus, we would like a nice juicy steak, the more blood the better; but realizing that for us to have that temporary satisfaction, there must be terrible violence, both to the animal from which the steak comes and to our spiritual growth, we decide to take our nourishment in a less violent form, and we are more God-like…

Really? That may be your opinion, but I can’t see how that conforms to Church teaching. I can see that by giving up meat some are mortifying themselves, or abstaining allows one to grow in the spiritual life by giving up a good, not because one is doing wrong by consuming animal flesh.

 

[Patjoe]

fix,

You read my words incorrectly. I did not say that in eating meat we are violating God’s law. Just as in enjoying all food, it is God’s gift to us. But God gave us a better gift – that of denying ourselves a good for a greater good, the glory of God. But if we recognize the evil in the way food animals are treated and we still partake of the fruits of that industry, it just may be wrong.

Animals in the wild deal with Nature. Animals in beef farms and chicken farms and so forth would not exist were it not for the actions of those who breed them and those to whom they sell them. Anyone can turn his/her back on what goes on and enjoy their eats, but that does not clear them of the guilt if they do so in light of all of the evidence of torture that exists.

As I said above, killing for fun and “bragging on it” (“head shots”) is clearly evidence of the way we have to go to full civilization. That is Stoneage language and totally unnecessary among people who are on the right path. Put an old rusty Chevy in their front yard and a washing machine on their front porch, and they will have something comfortable to come home to with their day’s kill. Not good conditions for spiritual improvement! God’s creatures should not be thrown in His Face as trash. It is our attitude toward them that makes them appear to be trash. If there are pests that are interferring in our good health or happiness, we get rid of them humanely; we don’t take delight in it!

 

[roymckenzie]

Ahimsa:

Even God allows for human weaknesses, as mentioned in this interview with a Catholic vegetarian.

And for a Jewish perspective, see this.

My friend humans are the only ones made in the image and likeness of God. The bias can clearly be seen in the interview with a Catholic vegetarian “believes that causing pain to an animal is the moral equivalent of causing pain to a human being.” and again “God designed chickens to make nests, lay eggs and raise their children.” Chicks are not children look it up, children are human sons or daughters.

Genesis 3:21 “For the man and his wife the LORD God made leather garments, with which he clothed them.”

Was God wrong?

The first factory farm, Genesis 4:2 “Next she bore his brother Abel. Abel became a keeper of flocks, and Cain a tiller of the soil.”

Genesis 4:4 “while Abel, for his part, brought one of the best firstlings of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering,”

It would appear that God prefers meat to vegetables.

It is not possible, if you are honest to say that God does not approve of us eating animals. Your reference to the Catholic vegan is way out, the guy does not know what he is speaking of.

I would also like to know what a Hindu is doing quoting Cardinal Newman?

 

[Trelow]

Patjoe:

As I said above, killing for fun and “bragging on it” (“head shots”) is clearly evidence of the way we have to go to full civilization.

Head shots don’t ruin the meat. And any hunter with a shred of dignity always wants a one shot kill. It’s better for the game and for the meat.

Hunting simply for sport isn’t a waste either. Helps prevent a carrying capacity bottleneck that would decimate the population. Only healthy herds are hunted and only a prescribed amount of game may be taken.

Conservation, not preservation.

 

[fix]

Patjoe:

fix,

You read my words incorrectly. I did not say that in eating meat we are violating God’s law. Just as in enjoying all food, it is God’s gift to us. But God gave us a better gift – that of denying ourselves a good for a greater good, the glory of God. But if we recognize the evil in the way food animals are treated and we still partake of the fruits of that industry, it just may be wrong.

Animals in the wild deal with Nature. Animals in beef farms and chicken farms and so forth would not exist were it not for the actions of those who breed them and those to whom they sell them. Anyone can turn his/her back on what goes on and enjoy their eats, but that does not clear them of the guilt if they do so in light of all of the evidence of torture that exists.

As I said above, killing for fun and “bragging on it” (“head shots”) is clearly evidence of the way we have to go to full civilization. That is Stoneage language and totally unnecessary among people who are on the right path. Put an old rusty Chevy in their front yard and a washing machine on their front porch, and they will have something comfortable to come home to with their day’s kill. Not good conditions for spiritual improvement! God’s creatures should not be thrown in His Face as trash. It is our attitude toward them that makes them appear to be trash. If there are pests that are interferring in our good health or happiness, we get rid of them humanely; we don’t take delight in it!

I disagree. You indict an entire industry and those who eat meat. It just seems from your post you may have more concern for an animal than for those God came to save. That is those with an eternal soul. I am not in favor of torturing animals, but claiming an entire industry is corrupt or hunting is evil is way over the top.

 

[Patjoe]

fix,

Again, I am not condemning hunting; in fact, that is probably the way that getting one’s meat should most properly be done – but kill for the purpose of eating and not primarily for the thrill of it or for bragging rights. And, yes, I know that populations need to be reduced and that ultimately hunting is the most humane way.

The things that are done to animals in the meat factories is torture – there can be no two ways of looking at it. Those who like to eat meat and who do not hunt try to deny this, but how can it be legitimately described any other way? And if the animals are not tortured while being fattened for the kill, they certainly are at the rendering plants. I doubt that many people would eat meat after a tour through one of those places!

My whole point is this: God intends for us to be gentle creatures, thankful for all of His gifts and watchful stewards of the things of this earth. But more importantly, He created us to become more like Himself, that is, spiritual creatures who happen to be passing through this world on a journey to join Him. Thus, we are in the world and not *of *the world. Optimally, that journey sees us go from totally selfish infants to worldly-wise teenagers to adults with a determination to know God’s Will to mature persons who are willing to leave behind the pleasures of the flesh in order to focus on the promise of happiness in the next life.

One pleasure of the flesh is the eating of meat. But for us to eat meat, we must take the life of another of God’s creatures. We cannot do that without some degree of violence, typically unnecessary except for our desire to eat the creature’s flesh. Violence is not an attribute of God and is not an attribute of the fully spiritual person.

We also know from God’s own words that in the ideal life on earth, all creatures will be gentle and unhurtful to one another. If that is the ideal, anything that has opposing characteristics is not what we are striving for. And if we voluntarily turn away from the violence, we become more like God.

Refraining from eating meat is easier for some than for others. Those persons probably have other areas in which they need grace. But I do believe that all of us need to think twice before eating meat that is produced through torture. Clearly that is an evil that should not be tolerated. There can and should be new ways to produce the meat for our tables. Meanwhile, there is available meat from cage-free chickens and turkeys and from beef that is allowed to feed freely and is packed humanely. It is a matter of looking and perhaps paying more. But if the torturers were to find that more people will not purchase their products, they would find a new and better way to do it. As it is, they go for the cheaper ways that I do believe constitute an evil that should be avoided.

 

[roymckenzie]

Patjoe:

fix,

The things that are done to animals in the meat factories is torture – there can be no two ways of looking at it. Those who like to eat meat and who do not hunt try to deny this, but how can it be legitimately described any other way? And if the animals are not tortured while being fattened for the kill, they certainly are at the rendering plants. I doubt that many people would eat meat after a tour through one of those places!
.

Farmers want the best meat to sell that is what brings in the biggest dollars. If the livestock is mistreated the meat will not taste the same. I have seen many of these farms they are clean, dry and well feed, what more would an animal want. I doubt 1 in 10,000 farmers are in business to abuse animals.

 

[SweetPea]

God put animals on the earth for a reason and I don’t think it was just food. There are those who speculate that Adam and Eve were vegetarians while in the Garden and it’s after the Fall that human beings became carnivores.

I see nothing wrong with eating meat although I think there are healthier ways to eat. Animals are God’s creation and we have to protect and respect them as such.

 

[fix]

Patjoe:

fix,

Again, I am not condemning hunting; in fact, that is probably the way that getting one’s meat should most properly be done – but kill for the purpose of eating and not primarily for the thrill of it or for bragging rights. And, yes, I know that populations need to be reduced and that ultimately hunting is the most humane way.

The things that are done to animals in the meat factories is torture – there can be no two ways of looking at it. Those who like to eat meat and who do not hunt try to deny this, but how can it be legitimately described any other way? And if the animals are not tortured while being fattened for the kill, they certainly are at the rendering plants. I doubt that many people would eat meat after a tour through one of those places!

My whole point is this: God intends for us to be gentle creatures, thankful for all of His gifts and watchful stewards of the things of this earth. But more importantly, He created us to become more like Himself, that is, spiritual creatures who happen to be passing through this world on a journey to join Him. Thus, we are in the world and not *of *the world. Optimally, that journey sees us go from totally selfish infants to worldly-wise teenagers to adults with a determination to know God’s Will to mature persons who are willing to leave behind the pleasures of the flesh in order to focus on the promise of happiness in the next life.

One pleasure of the flesh is the eating of meat. But for us to eat meat, we must take the life of another of God’s creatures. We cannot do that without some degree of violence, typically unnecessary except for our desire to eat the creature’s flesh. Violence is not an attribute of God and is not an attribute of the fully spiritual person.

We also know from God’s own words that in the ideal life on earth, all creatures will be gentle and unhurtful to one another. If that is the ideal, anything that has opposing characteristics is not what we are striving for. And if we voluntarily turn away from the violence, we become more like God.

Refraining from eating meat is easier for some than for others. Those persons probably have other areas in which they need grace. But I do believe that all of us need to think twice before eating meat that is produced through torture. Clearly that is an evil that should not be tolerated. There can and should be new ways to produce the meat for our tables. Meanwhile, there is available meat from cage-free chickens and turkeys and from beef that is allowed to feed freely and is packed humanely. It is a matter of looking and perhaps paying more. But if the torturers were to find that more people will not purchase their products, they would find a new and better way to do it. As it is, they go for the cheaper ways that I do believe constitute an evil that should be avoided.

Killing animals for food is not violence in the way you use the word. Do you have proof that before the fall of man animals did not kill each other and man did not kill and eat meat?

I think that some of us have a overly scrupulous conscience over these issues and want to make an entire theology out of vegetarianism.

 

[Trelow]

Patjoe:

The things that are done to animals in the meat factories is torture – there can be no two ways of looking at it. Those who like to eat meat and who do not hunt try to deny this, but how can it be legitimately described any other way? And if the animals are not tortured while being fattened for the kill, they certainly are at the rendering plants. I doubt that many people would eat meat after a tour through one of those places!

Live animals don’t go to rendering plants.

And where do you get the idea that all violence is wrong?

 

[ktm]

fix:

I think that some of us have a overly scrupulous conscience over these issues and want to make an entire theology out of vegetarianism.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: http://www.gardenpursuits.com/vegetables/veggieline.gif
:bowdown: :bowdown::bowdown:

 

[TAS2000]

The attempts at humor on this thread regarding the “killing” and “maiming” of fruits and vegetables overlook the fact that grain, fruit, and vegetables are the by-products of plants that have a season.

Um, ok, let’s be logical. You seem to be stating that vegaterians only eat parts of plants, and the plants themselves go on existing, therefore it is ok. Additionally, some plants will die if you pick their flowers, fruits, roots, etc. And we eat some plants basically whole. Plant lives, plant dies, we eat it. Animal lives, animal dies. We eat it.

Their specific purpose is for food or to become the fertilizer of the next season’s food

I could say the same for animals. So we are wrong for “harvesting” the animals while they are still alive, but have you seen a field of wheat after it’s been harvested? Not a lot of living plants left. Where is the difference? I agree that we are poor stweards of God’s gifts if we are unnesesarily cruel to the animals under our care. But I also don’t think I am better than others because I eat one type of living creature (plants) and not another (meat). In some cultures they eat insects. I have to say yuck, but I don’t think I am a better type of person than they are because I don’t eat insects. And I don’t think people who only eat plants are better than people who eat meat.
If you want to go on being logical, if it is in fact, ok to eat plants because they can go on living after we eat part of them, you can’t object to the same for animals. I’ll go out to the pasture, chop a leg off of ol’ Bossy, and then patch her up. She’ll recover and keep on living. Then in a few weeks I’ll do that again, until she is legless. Then when she dies naturally, I’ll get a different cow. It is ok, because we didn’t really kill her, just used part of her and let the rest die naturally.

 

[fix]

Letter to the Editor of Crisis magazine about an article of vegetarianism:

** Spare the Meat, Spoil the Gospel**

 I      was delighted to read the Manichaean ramblings of Daniel Paden, director of      the Catholic Vegetarian Society (“Letters,” June 2003). It confirmed my theory      that fanaticism in Western society alternates between nudism and vegetarianism,      both of which contradict the order of grace.

 As      an optimist, I happily trust that Paden confines his extreme commitments to      vegetarianism. Taste is one thing; it is another thing to condemn meat-eating      as “evil” and permissible only “in rare and unfortunate circumstances.” Paden      disagrees with no less an authority than God who forbids us to call any edible      unworthy (Mark 7:18-19), and who enjoined St. Peter to eat pork chops and      lobster in one of my favorite revelations (Acts 10:9-16). Does the Catholic      Vegetarian Society think that Our Lord was wrong to have served up fish to      the 5,000, or should He have refrained from eating the Passover lamb? When      He rose from the dead and appeared in the Upper Room, He did not ask for a      bowl of Cheerios, nor did He whip up a meatless omelette on the shore of Galilee.

 Man      was made to eat flesh (Genesis 1:26-31; 9:1-6), with the exception of human      flesh. I stand on record against cannibalism, whether it be inflicted upon      the Mbuti Pygmies by the Congolese Army or on larger people by a maniac in      Milwaukee. But I am also grateful that the benevolent father in the parable      did not welcome his prodigal son home with a bowl of radishes. 

 Vegetarians      assume an unedifying posture of detachment from the sufferings of vegetables      that are mashed, stewed, diced, and shredded. In expensive restaurants cherries      are publicly burned in brandy to the applause of diners. It is not uncommon      for people to submerge olives in iced gin and twist the peels of lemons. Be      indignant, vegetarian, but not so selectively indignant that the bleat of      the lamb and the plaintive moo of the cow drown out the whine of our brother      the bean and the quiet sigh of the cauliflower. Vegetables have reactive impulses.      Were we to confine our diet to creatures that lack sense and do not even respond      to light, we could only eat liturgists and liberal Democrats. 

               *Rev.                    George W. Rutler 
               **New                    York City*

 

[ThornGenX]

I think they are part of the food chain and have no problem with using them for food.

 

[Trelow]

  Were we to confine our diet to creatures that lack sense and do not even respond to light, we could only eat liturgists and liberal Democrats.]

Man, that is one of the best quotes I have ever read, rock on.

 

[fix]

Trelow:

Man, that is one of the best quotes I have ever read, rock on.

Yeah, I love it, but do not forget this gem…“It confirmed my theory that fanaticism in Western society alternates between nudism and vegetarianism, both of which contradict the order of grace.”

 

[Ella]

Dear Patjoe, thank you for your posts. You and I are in complete agreement on this. And for those who resort to mocking vegetarianism as an argument against what I and Patjoe have posted, I think you are throwing in a non sequitur instead of addressing this question: Is is moral to treat animals cruelly? Or do we have a respsonsibility to raise farm animals in humane conditions?

 

[Patjoe]

Fr. Rutler,

Wish I had known you are a priest. I would not have changed anything I have written; but I hate it when I have don’t have in mind the respect due to a priest when I am addressing one.

I don’t in any way want to have the “last word” in this discussion. Of course that would probably be impossible, since the subject will be discussed until we are all at peace with each other after the Savior comes again. Then we shall know just why God did what He did

Just a final clearing of my throat and correction of what I may have said incorrectly. Animals are slaughtered, not rendered. Does processing come next and then rendering?

Plants, roots, whatever description – whether intended for food or for their beauty – as well as animals should be appreciated as gifts from God. If we are at that place in our life and our role as determined by God where we are to eat animals, God bless us in that. Likewise, plants and vegetables and meat substitutes of whatever description.

By definition, violence is contrary to peace. To kill is by definition to take a life. Not difficult to do the math that killing involves violence.

To me, refraining from eating meat is easy because I don’t like the taste. If I did enjoy eating meat, I probably would. In itself, it is not evil. My uncle was foreman of the second-largest beef ranch that ever existed in the United States. He was extraordinarily solicitous of the needs of the cattle. Most ranchers are so. That excludes those who prepare their calves for veal and the whole set of actions involved in that. And of course there is the pre-slaughter process that is totally inhumane and thus, from my point of view, evil.

And animals do not deserve to live indoors; in fact, that seems to be the largest problem in this. I guess most people would agree that the most egregious torture of food animals comes in the poultry industry. The birds exist in totally unnatural conditions and are prepared for slaughter in inhumane conditions which makes that evil.

The Letter of the Editor that you quote is outside of my argument. I think that most Catholic writers agree that, although God gave man reign over all creatures of the earth (ironically, yesterday’s reading), He gave His official permission to eat animals after the Great Flood. And of course Jesus and the people of His time ate flesh. It was then as it remains today a good thing – just not, relatively speaking, the greater good.

God gave man something that makes just one of us incalculably more valuable than all of the lesser animals combined. But you must admit that figuatively speaking He went to a lot of trouble to create all the varieties of animals just to have them used as or regarded solely as man’s food. Although they must not be put on a plane with mankind, to ignore their inate beauty and to think of them merely as our prey when we get a hankering for vittles is ungracious to their Creator. And the killing of any animal, including man, can eventually make one crass and closed to the acceptance of the gentle life of Jesus.

Totally not a theology of vegetarianism. Just a few thoughts about the quote that began this thread – that “animals are food.” It struck a negative chord in me. And I do believe that if we make the decision to quit the violence involved in eating meat, we might be able to grow closer to God. And I further believe that food, all food, can represent a stumbling block for us and that the holiest among us require very little food for their daily sustenance. God supplies them with what is needed to live, both for body and soul.

And, personally, animals are unbelievably wonderful and reflect the beauty and mystery of their Creator.

 

[misericordie]

No one ever answered my question of: has anyone ever tasted Buffalo/bison burgers?? They taste yummy! I had them in Colorado.

 

[Trelow]

misericordie:

No one ever answered my question of: has anyone ever tasted Buffalo/bison burgers?? They taste yummy! I had them in Colorado.

They are awesome. There is a ranch in southern Missouri where they raise Buffalo, so when we lived in Branson 'twas a great treat.

Patjoe:

By definition, violence is contrary to peace. To kill is by definition to take a life. Not difficult to do the math that killing involves violence.

And where do you get the idea that all killing is wrong? God does more killing than anything else and God cannot do wrong. Not difficult to do the math that all killing isn’t wrong.