Anybody out there "pro-choice"?

[Eddie_Mac]

I’m glad that you agree that the fetus is living. We have some common ground.

So what if I you invite me into your house (like a person invites a child by having sex), use up your resources (such as food, electricity, etc.), cause you emotional stress (if you don’t believe I can, talk to my wife), negatively impact you socially (if your friends don’t like me), and economically (I drive an Audi A4 and repairs aren’t cheap. It’ll also need new tires this winter). And I could potentially cause you harm because I am bi-polar. And you have to endure me for nine months.

So that gives you the right to kill me?

No - but I would have kicked you out much , much earlier!

BTW - I am not for abortion most of the time - the time that I believe it is acceptable is when the life of the mother or the life of the mother and the fetus are very much in danger - I say this because I had to make this choice - I had just hit four months and I began to bleed copiously - to the point that within the hour I would have lost too much blood to live- the fetus would not have lived if delivered and if delivered would have caused much more bleeding. In this case neither of us would have lived so instead of having two die we decided that at least one should live. I didn’t like the decision but the only other choice was for both of us to die and no one gains from that. I know this is one of the rare circumstances but it does happen. And no the doctor didn’t just say this to make things easier on him. Since then I have asked other doctors if they saw any other way out and the answer has always been - only for both of you to die. I waited as long as I possibly could and I will not ever feel shame or guilt for choosing life -my life over death.

God Bless

As I recall in one other thread you stated also, and please correct me if I am not accurate, that you received poor information on the Church’s teaching on your situation.

I am not versed in the exact teaching of the Church and I hope someone else comes along to elaborate, but I am certain that the Church does not require women to die as a result of a problem pregnancy. There can be no direct action on the fetus but if the fetus dies as a result of the medical care given to the mother then that is not an abortion.

Eddie Mac

 

[royal_archer]

As I recall in one other thread you stated also, and please correct me if I am not accurate, that you received poor information on the Church’s teaching on your situation.

I am not versed in the exact teaching of the Church and I hope someone else comes along to elaborate, but I am certain that the Church does not require women to die as a result of a problem pregnancy. There can be no direct action on the fetus but if the fetus dies as a result of the medical care given to the mother then that is not an abortion.

Eddie Mac

Essentially, if you make reasonable efforts to save the child but it still dies it is OK as long as not taking action would have led to greater harm.

 

[ryecroft]

As I recall in one other thread you stated also, and please correct me if I am not accurate, that you received poor information on the Church’s teaching on your situation.

I am not versed in the exact teaching of the Church and I hope someone else comes along to elaborate, but I am certain that the Church does not require women to die as a result of a problem pregnancy. There can be no direct action on the fetus but if the fetus dies as a result of the medical care given to the mother then that is not an abortion.

Actually we are in a fairly odd case where attempting to deliver the fetus (at just four months - so the doctors said at the time the youngest fetus to have lived outside the womb was 26 weeks) would have caused me to have more blood loss and at that time I was beginning to hemmorage. There was no question that if I had continued to hemmorage that in an hour I would be dead. I didn’t like making the decision but I will never be guilty or shamed by it - there was no point in both of us dying - which is what was the other option. We didn’t just throw the fetus out without much thought - the doctors did everything they could to try to save it but had it been delivered it would have died anyway and me with it. I am Catholic and I want to have more kids - I wish this fetus had been able to live but that wasn’t able to happen. No one could see the good of having two die instead of just one. I’m getting fairly well beat up at another site for saying this but I really do believe that in cases like this abortion should be allowed as a last resort as it was for me. Some say “a miracle” could have happened - maybe one did - I lived when they wern’t even sure I would make it - and now I can try again when the doctors o.k. it.
God Bless

 

[MarysGirls]

As I recall in one other thread you stated also, and please correct me if I am not accurate, that you received poor information on the Church’s teaching on your situation.

I am not versed in the exact teaching of the Church and I hope someone else comes along to elaborate, but I am certain that the Church does not require women to die as a result of a problem pregnancy. There can be no direct action on the fetus but if the fetus dies as a result of the medical care given to the mother then that is not an abortion.

Actually we are in a fairly odd case where attempting to deliver the fetus (at just four months - so the doctors said at the time the youngest fetus to have lived outside the womb was 26 weeks) would have caused me to have more blood loss and at that time I was beginning to hemmorage. There was no question that if I had continued to hemmorage that in an hour I would be dead. I didn’t like making the decision but I will never be guilty or shamed by it - there was no point in both of us dying - which is what was the other option. We didn’t just throw the fetus out without much thought - the doctors did everything they could to try to save it but had it been delivered it would have died anyway and me with it. I am Catholic and I want to have more kids - I wish this fetus had been able to live but that wasn’t able to happen. No one could see the good of having two die instead of just one. I’m getting fairly well beat up at another site for saying this but I really do believe that in cases like this abortion should be allowed as a last resort as it was for me. Some say “a miracle” could have happened - maybe one did - I lived when they wern’t even sure I would make it - and now I can try again when the doctors o.k. it.
God Bless

I’m not trying to “beat you up” as you put it, but … isn’t what you’re saying almost like saying the ends justify the means? The ‘ends’ being whether you or the baby died, and the ‘means’ being killing the child.

 

[Revert_TSIEG]

Good discussion, including all who have written to me and others. All of you have made me think more than anyone else has in many years. I hope that you have seen that I am not pro-abortion. I have come to believe that many of us have the same feeling on many points already driven home. I have come to the conclusion that we are either on different levels with regards to abortion or we just have a different ways of ministering our faith (honestly, i think the latter). As a recent revert, I am having to come to terms with Gods will and my will (after being away from the Church for about 20 years). I hope that we all make our decisions based on the Word rather than are own personal beliefs, including myself.

God Bless,

Revert TSIEG

 

[royal_archer]

As I recall in one other thread you stated also, and please correct me if I am not accurate, that you received poor information on the Church’s teaching on your situation.

I am not versed in the exact teaching of the Church and I hope someone else comes along to elaborate, but I am certain that the Church does not require women to die as a result of a problem pregnancy. There can be no direct action on the fetus but if the fetus dies as a result of the medical care given to the mother then that is not an abortion.

Actually we are in a fairly odd case where attempting to deliver the fetus (at just four months - so the doctors said at the time the youngest fetus to have lived outside the womb was 26 weeks) would have caused me to have more blood loss and at that time I was beginning to hemmorage. There was no question that if I had continued to hemmorage that in an hour I would be dead. I didn’t like making the decision but I will never be guilty or shamed by it - there was no point in both of us dying - which is what was the other option. We didn’t just throw the fetus out without much thought - the doctors did everything they could to try to save it but had it been delivered it would have died anyway and me with it. I am Catholic and I want to have more kids - I wish this fetus had been able to live but that wasn’t able to happen. No one could see the good of having two die instead of just one. I’m getting fairly well beat up at another site for saying this but I really do believe that in cases like this abortion should be allowed as a last resort as it was for me. Some say “a miracle” could have happened - maybe one did - I lived when they wern’t even sure I would make it - and now I can try again when the doctors o.k. it.
God Bless

There are many that would argue that this is not an abortion. it is no different than any other c-sectionor induced labor where required to save the mother but at risk to the child. It sounds like you went with the procedure that granted all the greatest chance of survival.

 

[ryecroft]

isn’t what you’re saying almost like saying the ends justify the means? The ‘ends’ being whether you or the baby died, and the ‘means’ being killing the child>>Maysgirls

what i’m saying is there were two choices - either both myself and the fetus die (which had I waited any long would have occured-also would have occured had we tried to deliver - and this isn’t a guess - this is a fact - I had already lost so much blood they wern’t sure I would make it anyway) or only the fetus dies and I live.
As I said we waited as long as we could but continuing to wait would only have ensured my death by hemmoraging (among other things) and the 16 week fetus death - this would not have served anyone - it would not have served my husband to be without a wife - it would not have served the doctor to have both dead, it would not have served the fetus and it certainly would not have served me well at all to die. Just so you know we did do a type of impromptu baptism-my doctor was very good about that. This wasn’t how we wanted our pregnancy to end but unless I wanted to die there was no other choice. So if you want to consider the baby being killed the means than so be it - there was no choice of the fetus living at all - it was on ly 16 weeks and was already compromized multiple ways – so while I’m not happy the fetus died I refuse to say I’m sorry, guilty or ashamed that I lived. I very narrowly avoided having a hysterectomy due to the bleeding - I’m glad the doctors may give us permission to try again - maybe successfully this time. And yes a Priest did agree that this was the only choice to be made - and I will not believe anyone that tells me he told us wrong - his other option would have been to tell me to go ahead and bleed out and he agreed that we should try everything we could to keep both of us but when it was obvious that wasn’t an option he agreed that there was no point of both of us dying.

God Bless
Annie

 

[twinklers]

My feelings on abortion are as follows:
No human being should be discarded by death. However, given the current circumstances of either zero tolerance or full 24 week fetus’s being murdered it may be that we need to find a way to save, at least the babies who are aware that they live.
The cruelty of later term abortions is intolerable but we will not be able to stop this area of torture without taking into reasonable consideration the idea that an embryo has no awareness of life and set, at the very least, a reasonable termination age.
Given our belief that we are immortal souls, perhaps we should aim to protect the children who have reached an age of being able to interact with the outside world. It is my understanding that the nervous system begins transmitting signals to the brain at around 12 weeks. That gives a rape victom, a deformed and unviable fetus, a high risk pregnancy where the mother could be in danger, or uncountable circumstances the option of terminating in the spirit of faith and mercy.
This stalmate is causing unbelievable agony and pain where perhaps a compromise would at least save the children who are too far along to terminate with any mercy, and would save countless mothers the agony and guilt of later realization of what they have done.

 

[antunesaa]

Yep I agree though one thing different for me I am a woman lol. Also I should note from what I understand at least I think this way. We do see the fetus as a life. The question is it a life worthy of personhood and protection under the law.? And at the stage mentioned in the article I find it to be a very grey area. But the fact of the matter is most abortions take place far far sooner.

The big problem is letting one human being decide on another human being’s life. Now, is a fetus a human being? It is a being. It is human. Therefore, he/she is a human being… Now, someone decides on his/her life; a paper with an authorization is signed by someone for such person to undergo surgery with the aim of extracting that human being from its “home”. This is barbaric.

 

[MarysGirls]

isn’t what you’re saying almost like saying the ends justify the means? The ‘ends’ being whether you or the baby died, and the ‘means’ being killing the child>>Maysgirls

what i’m saying is there were two choices - either both myself and the fetus die (which had I waited any long would have occured-also would have occured had we tried to deliver - and this isn’t a guess - this is a fact - I had already lost so much blood they wern’t sure I would make it anyway) or only the fetus dies and I live.
As I said we waited as long as we could but continuing to wait would only have ensured my death by hemmoraging (among other things) and the 16 week fetus death - this would not have served anyone - it would not have served my husband to be without a wife - it would not have served the doctor to have both dead, it would not have served the fetus and it certainly would not have served me well at all to die. Just so you know we did do a type of impromptu baptism-my doctor was very good about that. This wasn’t how we wanted our pregnancy to end but unless I wanted to die there was no other choice. So if you want to consider the baby being killed the means than so be it - there was no choice of the fetus living at all - it was on ly 16 weeks and was already compromized multiple ways – so while I’m not happy the fetus died I refuse to say I’m sorry, guilty or ashamed that I lived. I very narrowly avoided having a hysterectomy due to the bleeding - I’m glad the doctors may give us permission to try again - maybe successfully this time. And yes a Priest did agree that this was the only choice to be made - and I will not believe anyone that tells me he told us wrong - his other option would have been to tell me to go ahead and bleed out and he agreed that we should try everything we could to keep both of us but when it was obvious that wasn’t an option he agreed that there was no point of both of us dying.

God Bless
Annie

Annie,
I am honestly not sure if what you did is right or not. I probably won’t ever know this side of heaven. But I want you to know that even though I do not necessarily agree with what you did, I do not blame you.

Peace,
Nicole

 

[MarysGirls]

Good discussion, including all who have written to me and others. All of you have made me think more than anyone else has in many years. I hope that you have seen that I am not pro-abortion. I have come to believe that many of us have the same feeling on many points already driven home. I have come to the conclusion that we are either on different levels with regards to abortion or we just have a different ways of ministering our faith (honestly, i think the latter). As a recent revert, I am having to come to terms with Gods will and my will (after being away from the Church for about 20 years). I hope that we all make our decisions based on the Word rather than are own personal beliefs, including myself.

God Bless,

Revert TSIEG

 

[Eddie_Mac]

My feelings on abortion are as follows:
No human being should be discarded by death. However, given the current circumstances of either zero tolerance or full 24 week fetus’s being murdered it may be that we need to find a way to save, at least the babies who are aware that they live.
The cruelty of later term abortions is intolerable but we will not be able to stop this area of torture without taking into reasonable consideration the idea that an embryo has no awareness of life and set, at the very least, a reasonable termination age.
Given our belief that we are immortal souls, perhaps we should aim to protect the children who have reached an age of being able to interact with the outside world. It is my understanding that the nervous system begins transmitting signals to the brain at around 12 weeks. That gives a rape victom, a deformed and unviable fetus, a high risk pregnancy where the mother could be in danger, or uncountable circumstances the option of terminating in the spirit of faith and mercy.
This stalmate is causing unbelievable agony and pain where perhaps a compromise would at least save the children who are too far along to terminate with any mercy, and would save countless mothers the agony and guilt of later realization of what they have done.

You really should reorient your feelings. Feelings have no bearing in whether or not you take a human life.

Who is to say that even the tiniest of fetuses do not feel pain?

Whether or not something feels pain is no reason to murder them.

Grown adults do not feel pain when injected with massive doses of morphine but they are just as dead.

Your feelings are flawed.

Eddie Mac

 

[GodIsGracious]

It’s a decision that each woman needs to make on her own,

If by saying this you mean a woman makes a decision because they had sex, let me remind you of FORCED sex. No they don’t. That 9 year old GIRL in Brazil did not make that decision. Women raped, VIOLENTLY violated, don’t make that decision.

I am politically pro-choice. Only because I don’t want anyone other than MY Church and faith telling me what to do.

To take away rights is a slippery slope I do not want to go down.

 

[twinklers]

You really should reorient your feelings. Feelings have no bearing in whether or not you take a human life.

Who is to say that even the tiniest of fetuses do not feel pain?

Whether or not something feels pain is no reason to murder them.

Grown adults do not feel pain when injected with massive doses of morphine but they are just as dead.

Your feelings are flawed.

Eddie Mac

My feelings are not the issue.
This is not about weather or not we should or shouldn’t terminate, this is about saving the children who anyone can see are suffering from it right now.
Many will not make a reasonable sacrifice of themselves and will not consider bringing a pregnancy to term. The law of the land must find a way to be, at the very least, merciful TODAY, not in several years or decades while this debate is battled out in courts.
Pro lifers are bringing into the general public religious belief systems regarding birth control, at the expense of fully formed babies who are being tortured simply because the law doesn’t take into account their very real pain.
I am for saving the ones who can be saved today, and dealing with the religious aspects as time goes on, we cannot stop birth control and we cannot stop abortions as that is not up to the church, what we possibly can do is stop late term abortions, and if we aimed for that at least we may be successful much sooner, and end this massacre now.
If we are going to make any difference at all, perhaps we need to remember that we are aiming to reduce innocent suffering first and formost. Perhaps later we can bring the whole world around to obeying the birth control laws of our faith? (sarcasm)

 

[fix]

My feelings are not the issue.
This is not about weather or not we should or shouldn’t terminate, this is about saving the children who anyone can see are suffering from it right now.
Many will not make a reasonable sacrifice of themselves and will not consider bringing a pregnancy to term. The law of the land must find a way to be, at the very least, merciful TODAY, not in several years or decades while this debate is battled out in courts.
Pro lifers are bringing into the general public religious belief systems regarding birth control, at the expense of fully formed babies who are being tortured simply because the law doesn’t take into account their very real pain.
I am for saving the ones who can be saved today, and dealing with the religious aspects as time goes on, we cannot stop birth control and we cannot stop abortions as that is not up to the church, what we possibly can do is stop late term abortions, and if we aimed for that at least we may be successful much sooner, and end this massacre now.
If we are going to make any difference at all, perhaps we need to remember that we are aiming to reduce innocent suffering first and formost. Perhaps later we can bring the whole world around to obeying the birth control laws of our faith? (sarcasm)

Why must late term abortions be stopped?

 

[Calliso]

The big problem is letting one human being decide on another human being’s life. Now, is a fetus a human being? It is a being. It is human. Therefore, he/she is a human being… Now, someone decides on his/her life; a paper with an authorization is signed by someone for such person to undergo surgery with the aim of extracting that human being from its “home”. This is barbaric.

Yes it is human but what I am saying is should it have personhood and protection under the law the same as it;s mother would for instance? I think no at least for early term pregnancies.

 

[po18guy]

I am politically pro-choice. Only because I don’t want anyone other than MY Church and faith telling me what to do.

To take away rights is a slippery slope I do not want to go down.

Well, thank the Lord that you were not the product of VIOLENT rape. If you were, you would have no rights and no life. Now, I see that as a slippery slope.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Well, thank the Lord that you were not the product of VIOLENT rape. If you were, you would have no rights and no life. Now, I see that as a slippery slope.

Yeah yeah, I’ve heard it all before. Still hasn’t changed my mind.

ETA:

Usually people who like make comments like “woman made her choice” in regards to the pro-choice issue, they are usually assuming that women who are having an abortion were willing sex partners. I wanted remind people that is not always the case.

Secondly, many women who choose to have abortions are not doing it willy nilly. Many are going to do it no matter what. I’d rather not have them die. Where as, you would.

In an ideal world, we wouldn’t have to worry about these things. We are not, however, in an ideal world. Mostly, I vote pro-CHOICE because I do not wish to have any particular group of people deign to tell me what to do. If we had it our way, everyone would be Catholic, we’d live in an ideal world, and this wouldn’t be an issue.

However, this is not the case, unfortunately. Being pro-choice doesn’t mean that you want everyone to have an abortion.

 

[po18guy]

Consider:

A fetus conceived in the womb of a young, unmarried woman.

The fetus is mixed race in a society that is substantially racist.

A look into the future reveals:

That the father will basically never be involved in the child’s life.

That the child will be raised by several different family members in different locations.

At age 10, the child will be exposed to, and develop a relationship with, an alleged pedophile and subversive.

Several who post here, under the banner of “rights” and “choice”, would advise the young mother to abort. “Why bear the burden of this unplanned pregnancy? Why subject a child to such a life?” they might say. Taking their advice, she would then have aborted the very fetus who became the president that her “pro-choice” advisers recently elected. Set the morality aside for a few. Where is the logic? Abortion has consequences for mother, child and the world. Our president is alive because his mother was pro-life. Period.

“Oh”, you might say, “abortion was not legal in 1961”. Well, neither was homicide, but we also had plenty of those.

 

[po18guy]

Yeah yeah, I’ve heard it all before. Still hasn’t changed my mind.

ETA:

Usually people who like make comments like “woman made her choice” in regards to the pro-choice issue, they are usually assuming that women who are having an abortion were willing sex partners. I wanted remind people that is not always the case.

Secondly, many women who choose to have abortions are not doing it willy nilly. Many are going to do it no matter what. I’d rather not have them die. Where as, you would.

In an ideal world, we wouldn’t have to worry about these things. We are not, however, in an ideal world. Mostly, I vote pro-CHOICE because I do not wish to have any particular group of people deign to tell me what to do. If we had it our way, everyone would be Catholic, we’d live in an ideal world, and this wouldn’t be an issue.

However, this is not the case, unfortunately. Being pro-choice doesn’t mean that you want everyone to have an abortion.

What you are saying is that the baby can be given the death penalty for the crime of being conceived.