Anybody out there "pro-choice"?

[po18guy]

If by saying this you mean a woman makes a decision because they had sex, let me remind you of FORCED sex. No they don’t. That 9 year old GIRL in Brazil did not make that decision. Women raped, VIOLENTLY violated, don’t make that decision.

I am politically pro-choice. Only because I don’t want anyone other than MY Church and faith telling me what to do.

To take away rights is a slippery slope I do not want to go down.

I must point out that Planned Parenthood, whose labors you politically support, is repeatedly and once again accused of attempting to convince the young female victims of crime to conceal that crime. Illogical.

 

[po18guy]

Yeah yeah, I’ve heard it all before. Still hasn’t changed my mind.

Do you have such a casual attitude toward the death penalty? Toward war? To be consistent, you should.

Usually people who like make comments like “woman made her choice” in regards to the pro-choice issue, they are usually assuming that women who are having an abortion were willing sex partners. I wanted remind people that is not always the case.

Does the innocent child deserve the death penalty?

Secondly, many women who choose to have abortions are not doing it willy nilly. Many are going to do it no matter what. I’d rather not have them die. Where as, you would.

Quite an assumption you are making there - on several counts. If you remove the risk associated with any given human activity, you will get more of that activity. It is horrible if a mother dies in a botched abortion “legal” or otherwise. How is it better that the innocent child dies in every abortion?

In an ideal world, we wouldn’t have to worry about these things. We are not, however, in an ideal world. Mostly, I vote pro-CHOICE because I do not wish to have any particular group of people deign to tell me what to do. If we had it our way, everyone would be Catholic, we’d live in an ideal world, and this wouldn’t be an issue.

So, as long as evil exists in this world, the proper response to it is more evil?

However, this is not the case, unfortunately. Being pro-choice doesn’t mean that you want everyone to have an abortion.

Words have meaning. 'Pro-choice" must be the evil one’s favorite term. Aren’t you pro-baby death, in cases where you personally agree with it?

(to paraphrase Francis Cardinal Arinze): I am personally opposed to shooting pro-abortion “Catholics”. However, if someone else wants to do that, it is their choice. Explain the moral difference between this and your position.

 

[Calliso]

Also another reason I am prochoice is basically cause I donlt think I have the right to say another woman should do what I am not completely sure I would be willing to do. Oh sure I can sit here and say I would never terminate a pregnancy of my own. But then again can I say that for sure? I mean the thought of having kids of being pregnant is an absolute nightmare for me. But I have a loving supporting husband, not all women have that. Not all women are in a stable situation like me. So if I can;t say with 100% conviction that I would never have an abortion…how can I tell another woman that she should have no choice in the matter and must carry the fetus to term?

 

[GodIsGracious]

po18guy,

What I see is inconsistency in may “pro-life” people. Which I view many of whom to be “anti-choice.” However, with Catholics, I do see a more consistent view re: death penalty (which I am against), war (which I am against), and abortion (which I am against.)

You’re trying to deflect by saying that someone who is pro-choice is “pro-abortion.” Some of us are not, while some are.

I have stated that 1) I’d rather have health care for a woman who will be insisting on having an abortion. YOU are being inconsistent by denying her that health care - you’d rather have her dead. (Well, I recognize that you’d rather have the woman carry the baby to term. I’m talking about women who insist on having an abortion.) 2) My pro-choice stance has a greater impact and view than the 1 trick pony political idealogy of voting on the abortion issue.

BTW, one assumption you’re making about “removing risk == more of that activity” is false. There’s not just risk, there is also cost/benefit involved.

Supporting pro-choice, doesn’t mean supporting abortion. I wouldn’t want to support an abortion with my money. Take public funding out of abortion. However, this would be difficult as I do support universal health care.

I’ve heard all the “pro-life” arguments before. I have not changed my mind, nor will I. The vilification of women who choose to get an abortion is abominable. Further, “pro-choice” political stance is more than just the abortion issue. Believe it or not, I actually do care about people - even though you don’t view me that way. I find it atrocious that so much energy is spent on this one single issue, yet other issues that take away the quality of life for people are largely ignored. (of course, you’ll say that abortion takes away the quality of life.) I wonder just how many pro-life - or rather - anti-choice people have thought of the fact that had people had a better quality of life, abortion may not be necessary.

Do you have such a casual attitude toward the death penalty? Toward war? To be consistent, you should.

Does the innocent child deserve the death penalty?

Quite an assumption you are making there - on several counts. If you remove the risk associated with any given human activity, you will get more of that activity. It is horrible if a mother dies in a botched abortion “legal” or otherwise. How is it better that the innocent child dies in every abortion?

So, as long as evil exists in this world, the proper response to it is more evil?

Words have meaning. 'Pro-choice" must be the evil one’s favorite term. Aren’t you pro-baby death, in cases where you personally agree with it?

(to paraphrase Francis Cardinal Arinze): I am personally opposed to shooting pro-abortion “Catholics”. However, if someone else wants to do that, it is their choice. Explain the moral difference between this and your position.

 

[fix]

Pro choice=pro abortion. Hiding from that is futile.

 

[po18guy]

Also another reason I am prochoice is basically cause I donlt think I have the right to say another woman should do what I am not completely sure I would be willing to do. Oh sure I can sit here and say I would never terminate a pregnancy of my own. But then again can I say that for sure? I mean the thought of having kids of being pregnant is an absolute nightmare for me. But I have a loving supporting husband, not all women have that. Not all women are in a stable situation like me. So if I can;t say with 100% conviction that I would never have an abortion…how can I tell another woman that she should have no choice in the matter and must carry the fetus to term?

So, you are personally opposed to killing, but if others want to do so, it’s OK?

 

[Calliso]

So, you are personally opposed to killing, but if others want to do so, it’s OK?

What I am saying is I donlt think at least on the issue of abortions partically early term abortions since I can;t say with 100% conviction I would never get one at such a stage. It would feel wrong for me to then say I feel any other woman shouldn;t have a choice either. Ideally though I would like there to be little to no abortions. But I donlt think making them illegal will help that.

 

[po18guy]

po18guy,

What I see is inconsistency in may “pro-life” people. Which I view many of whom to be “anti-choice.” However, with Catholics, I do see a more consistent view re: death penalty (which I am against), war (which I am against), and abortion (which I am against.)

You appear to be compartmentalizing here. Let others kill - so long as you’re not involved? You ARE involved. Your taxes are paying for death, whether by war, death penalty, or abortion. Are you really against all three? Why aren’t you “pro-choice” on war or the death penalty? I mean, you are not killing anyone, or waging war - so what if someone else wants to? Isn’t that their choice?

Pick a side. Choosing to let others choose is not making a decision. Didn’t Pontius Pilate do this?

You’re trying to deflect by saying that someone who is pro-choice is “pro-abortion.” Some of us are not, while some are.

Like pregnancy, you either are or are not. Are you also projecting a little here?

I have stated that 1) I’d rather have health care for a woman who will be insisting on having an abortion. YOU are being inconsistent by denying her that health care - you’d rather have her dead. (Well, I recognize that you’d rather have the woman carry the baby to term. I’m talking about women who insist on having an abortion.) 2) My pro-choice stance has a greater impact and view than the 1 trick pony political idealogy of voting on the abortion issue.

Oh, I see! It’s all my fault! YOU mentioned “health care”. I did not. Are you trying to demonize or marginalize those who disagree with you? Sounds like it from my chair.

BTW, one assumption you’re making about “removing risk == more of that activity” is false. There’s not just risk, there is also cost/benefit involved.

Ever study economic theory?

Supporting pro-choice, doesn’t mean supporting abortion.

Yes, it does.

I wouldn’t want to support an abortion with my money. Take public funding out of abortion. However, this would be difficult as I do support universal health care.

This is a canard! You effectively support abortion - it’s just that you package them with more palatable benefits. Aren’t you sublimating the evil of abortion to the “greater good” of health care? You still support evil. There is no way around it.

Isn’t it astounding and scandalous that you refer to yourself as “Roman Catholic” while standing 100% in opposition to the Church on the most basic life issue - the right to it? How can you call yourself a Catholic, which is a set of beliefs and teachings, if you do not believe or teach in agreement with them? I find this amazing!

 

[SteveGC]

Ideally though I would like there to be little to no abortions. But I donlt think making them illegal will help that.

Why would you think laws prohibiting something wouldn’t help that “something” decrease in frequency significantly?

Is there anything illegal out there (i.e. murder, theft, fraud, prostitution) that you think would not occur in greater numbers if it were legalized?

 

[Calliso]

Why would you think laws prohibiting something wouldn’t help that “something” decrease in frequency significantly?

Is there anything illegal out there (i.e. murder, theft, fraud, prostitution) that you think would not occur in greater numbers if it were legalized?

Off the top of my head no. But as I understand it there has even been a major study done that shows there isn;t much difference between countries that have illegalized abortions and those who have it legal. In fact from what I rememeber the both the highest and lowest rate of abortion occured in countries where it was legal. So to me that means it;s a bit more complicated then simply making it illegal. Now I think making it illegal would cut down on the number somewhat. But not much. Really I haven;t seen anything that tells me that making abortion illegal would really help the situation…and not potentially cause new problems of it;s own. Now maybe one day with other changes made we could make abortion illegal but right now no I think at least for the early stages it needs to remain legal.

 

[SteveGC]

Faithful, pro-life Catholics are not believers in a “1 trick pony” or silver bullet political strategy to thwart abortion…thinking that if we outlaw abortion, the problem will go away.

On the contrary, we fully support the education and ministry to women and men, not only in the proper preparation and commitment (in marriage) to bear children, but also in the significance of the sanctity of life - regardless of the conditions under which a pregnancy occurs (unintended, birth defected, rape, etc). People need to know that children are to be conceived through a loving and sacramental marriage, and they also need to know that taking the life of that conceived child is never an option to God. We also fully support and encourage new health care initiatives aimed at minimizing risks to both mother and child during pregnancy and delivery.

That being said, it is also as significant that we align ourselves civilly and politically with our spirituality and faith. Laws allowing abortion are the biggest single obstacle to our attempts at that alignment, and therefore must be addressed. Hence, faithful Catholics everywhere are called to stand up against legalized abortion…not against the people who perform them or acquire them…but against the ideology which has allowed the abortive act to take place within the confines of the law. This is unacceptable, intolerable.

This is the essence of Catholic pro-life…put an end to the legalization, fully support robust health care to women with birth complications, and educate and minister to all people regarding the sanctity of conception and life.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Yes, it does. This is a canard! You effectively support abortion - it’s just that you package them with more palatable benefits. Aren’t you sublimating the evil of abortion to the “greater good” of health care? You still support evil. There is no way around it.

No, it does not.

And this is why people don’t join discussions such as these. And with that, I’m out.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

My feelings are not the issue.
This is not about weather or not we should or shouldn’t terminate, this is about saving the children who anyone can see are suffering from it right now.
Many will not make a reasonable sacrifice of themselves and will not consider bringing a pregnancy to term. The law of the land must find a way to be, at the very least, merciful TODAY, not in several years or decades while this debate is battled out in courts.
Pro lifers are bringing into the general public religious belief systems regarding birth control, at the expense of fully formed babies who are being tortured simply because the law doesn’t take into account their very real pain.
I am for saving the ones who can be saved today, and dealing with the religious aspects as time goes on, we cannot stop birth control and we cannot stop abortions as that is not up to the church, what we possibly can do is stop late term abortions, and if we aimed for that at least we may be successful much sooner, and end this massacre now.
If we are going to make any difference at all, perhaps we need to remember that we are aiming to reduce innocent suffering first and formost. Perhaps later we can bring the whole world around to obeying the birth control laws of our faith? (sarcasm)

I don’t follow your differentiation on “suffering now” and “not suffering”.

They are all dying. They are all being killed. All of them have done nothing to deserve their fate.

Your thoughts, feelings, reasoning, logic, whatever you call it, is flawed.

You are saying:

“Let’s just go ahead and kill these 500,000 babies this year because they are not feeling pain when we suck their brains out and our efforts really will not do anything to save them”.

Eddie Mac

 

[SteveGC]

My feelings are not the issue.
This is not about weather or not we should or shouldn’t terminate, this is about saving the children who anyone can see are suffering from it right now.
Many will not make a reasonable sacrifice of themselves and will not consider bringing a pregnancy to term. The law of the land must find a way to be, at the very least, merciful TODAY, not in several years or decades while this debate is battled out in courts.
Pro lifers are bringing into the general public religious belief systems regarding birth control, at the expense of fully formed babies who are being tortured simply because the law doesn’t take into account their very real pain.
I am for saving the ones who can be saved today, and dealing with the religious aspects as time goes on, we cannot stop birth control and we cannot stop abortions as that is not up to the church, what we possibly can do is stop late term abortions, and if we aimed for that at least we may be successful much sooner, and end this massacre now.
If we are going to make any difference at all, perhaps we need to remember that we are aiming to reduce innocent suffering first and formost. Perhaps later we can bring the whole world around to obeying the birth control laws of our faith? (sarcasm)

While I agree with the concept of “fight the battles you can win” in general, I think it’s important to understand that the Catholic message needs to be clear and unambiguous. While lobbying against “late term” abortions may give way to lesser abortions overall, it also sends a message that the Catholic position puts “late term” babies ahead of “early term” babies, or that life begins at say, 6 months gestation vs. at conception. I do think you’re right in a sense…that an attack on this more “winable” legal battle may be a good first step…so long as it is clear that the Catholic position is aimed at complete and total illegalization, not partial. I also agree with Eddie, in that it’s not necessarily about stopping the suffering of innocents. The first and foremost issue is preserving the sanctity of life…from conception to natural death. If we try to differentiate the sanctity based on our feelings of ‘who suffers most?’…then indeed, we may be letting our emotions drive our efforts as opposed to our faith.

 

[AHapka]

I am prochoice is basically cause I donlt think I have the right to say another woman should do

Then I presume that you also support a woman’s right to be a prostitute? What could be more American then using your “assets” to make money?

I also presume you support a woman’s right to commit suicide since you aren’t going to tell her what to do with her body.

If you knew a woman who was bulemic and chose to puke after each meal to loose as much weight as possible, would you not say anything because you don’t want to tell another woman what to do?

If you knew a woman who went to the bars and drank heavily and slept with whatever guy she could find, would you have the same attitude that you are not going to tell another woman what to do?

If you knew a woman who drove drunk a lot would you have the same attitude that you are not going to tell another woman what to do?

Do you support the 21 year old drinking age (which I happen to disagree with)? Because that’s telling adult woman what to do with their bodies.

 

[Calliso]

Then I presume that you also support a woman’s right to be a prostitute? What could be more American then using your “assets” to make money?

I also presume you support a woman’s right to commit suicide since you aren’t going to tell her what to do with her body.

If you knew a woman who was bulemic and chose to puke after each meal to loose as much weight as possible, would you not say anything because you don’t want to tell another woman what to do?

If you knew a woman who went to the bars and drank heavily and slept with whatever guy she could find, would you have the same attitude that you are not going to tell another woman what to do?

If you knew a woman who drove drunk a lot would you have the same attitude that you are not going to tell another woman what to do?

Do you support the 21 year old drinking age (which I happen to disagree with)? Because that’s telling adult woman what to do with their bodies.

I am not sure if prostitution should be illegal or not. As for commiting suicide if we are just talking a oh I am depressed so I am going to kill myself type of thing then no…but if someone has a terminal disease and is suffering I do think they should be allowed to end their lives. But I think suicide involves more then one person…I mean what about the family she is leaving behind the friends?

I would tell the bulemic woman to stop.

As for the woman going to bars and sleeping with a bunch of men I would maybe tell her I disaproved and tell her the risks…but otherwise would tell her it;s her life just donlt blame me when things go bad. \

As for driving drunk considering she could get someone else killed no I would not support that.

As for the drinking age I believe there should be one…and it should be over 18…but really I donlt think it is necessary to have it be 21. But lets say a 17 year old wants to have a drink with her parents or another adult at a restarant…I donlt think there is anything wrong with letting her have a small glass of wine or whatever.

But the full quote was actually this. Also another reason I am prochoice is basically cause I donlt think I have the right to say another woman should do what I am not completely sure I would be willing to do

In other words if I can;t say with 100% conviction that I would never get an abortion which I can;t I donlt feel it is right for me to tell another woman what to do specifically on the abortion issue. I donlt think the same way for everything else though especially when it has the potential to harm other people. And no I donlt consider the fetus…at least at the early term a person. However at later terms it does get more gray and I do actually think late term abortions should be more restricted.

 

[JimG]

However at later terms it does get more gray and I do actually think late term abortions should be more restricted.

At what point would you restrict abortion? 4 months? 6 months? 9 months?

Any restriction at all would be better than the current law which allows abortion throughout all nine months for virtually any reason. According to polls, that (what we now have) is not the sort of law that would be supported by a majority of citizens.

 

[Calliso]

At what point would you restrict abortion? 4 months? 6 months? 9 months?

Any restriction at all would be better than the current law which allows abortion throughout all nine months for virtually any reason. According to polls, that (what we now have) is not the sort of law that would be supported by a majority of citizens.

I would say about 4 or 5 monthes. NOw I donlt think it should be totally restricted ever. But I donlt think a woman should at 5 monthes for instance just be able to walk into a clinic and get an abortion for whatever reason. Actually ideally in an ideal world no woman would ever get an abortion at any time for any reason other then rape or severe risk to life. I donlt think we live in such an ideal world just yet and doubt I will see it in my life time.

 

[Calliso]

Faithful, pro-life Catholics are not believers in a “1 trick pony” or silver bullet political strategy to thwart abortion…thinking that if we outlaw abortion, the problem will go away.

On the contrary, we fully support the education and ministry to women and men, not only in the proper preparation and commitment (in marriage) to bear children, but also in the significance of the sanctity of life - regardless of the conditions under which a pregnancy occurs (unintended, birth defected, rape, etc). People need to know that children are to be conceived through a loving and sacramental marriage, and they also need to know that taking the life of that conceived child is never an option to God. We also fully support and encourage new health care initiatives aimed at minimizing risks to both mother and child during pregnancy and delivery.

That being said, it is also as significant that we align ourselves civilly and politically with our spirituality and faith. Laws allowing abortion are the biggest single obstacle to our attempts at that alignment, and therefore must be addressed. Hence, faithful Catholics everywhere are called to stand up against legalized abortion…not against the people who perform them or acquire them…but against the ideology which has allowed the abortive act to take place within the confines of the law. This is unacceptable, intolerable.

This is the essence of Catholic pro-life…put an end to the legalization, fully support robust health care to women with birth complications, and educate and minister to all people regarding the sanctity of conception and life.

See this sounds good to me…it seems to me that in so many debates I have had with prolife people so many seem to think that The Answer is simply illegalizing abortion then the problem mostly goes away. Of course I do think that before we could even think about illegalizing abortion we would have to focus more on the other things you listed.

 

[MarysGirls]

See this sounds good to me…it seems to me that in so many debates I have had with prolife people so many seem to think that The Answer is simply illegalizing abortion then the problem mostly goes away. Of course I do think that before we could even think about illegalizing abortion we would have to focus more on the other things you listed.

Sounds good to me too and I agree with illegalizing abortion won’t solve the problem. But it is a start.

BTW, if you are willing to consider a logical argument on the fetus being a baby, I have one for you. (Oh, and the Bible says, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you” [Jer. 1:5].)