Anyone who willfully and deliberately sins doesn't know God, just ask Ananias!

[Giver]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi Giver, “after pentecost”???

why was it neccessary for the apostles to be refilled with the Spirit?

How do you understand Romans 12:1-3 and Gal 5?

Do you believe that you have a sin nature?

The Apostles never received the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. Jesus told them that unless he went the Holy Spirit wouldn’t come. Also Jesus tells them: (John 16:12-14)”I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. But when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since he will not be speaking as from himself but will say only what he has learnt; and he will tell you of the things to come.”

I don’t really see what you want to know about (Romans 12:1-2) It seams Paul is writing to some baby Christian and giving them instructions. Just because a Christian gets baptized doesn’t mean they are mature Christians as in: (Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
Giver

If you mean have I sinned, why of course many times. To sin now though would be my death, in that I could not ever be forgiven again.

 

[Verity1]

“By the way yes there are sins that don’t lead to death, they are human faults that are not serious offences and are not deliberate or thought out. John says that all sins don’t lead to death. Everyone needs to understand that when a person is lead by the Holy Spirit they will not sin, and if they do they are dead.”

That’s a handy get-out. No-one can look God in the face who has any sin upon him. ANY sin. That’s why it is necessary to be purged completely of any impurity before being in God’s Holy presence. Hence, Purgatory for those who don’t go to Hell.

I work with “born again Christians” who believe as you do. I see their faults/sins every day, as no doubt they see mine. The difference is, I see mine too (well, most of them!), and they don’t see theirs. They are “saints” like you, you see, and therefore cannot sin!

As to your other quotes. The devil can quote scripture too. I’m sure you can go on for hours quoting verses that back-up YOUR OWN theories. Your fatal error is that YOU interpret them as you like. YOU are your own pope.

Christ did not leave us orphans, at the mercy of our own or others’ twisted theology. Come back to the Truth. Come back to the Church, the Bride of Christ. She is waiting to welcome you with open arms.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

John 20:22 (King James Version)
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Ah, that is clearly pre-pentecost.

Robertson’s Word Pictures of the New Testament

He breathed on them (enepushsen). First aorist active indicative of empusaw, late verb, here only in N.T. though eleven times in the LXX and in the papyri. It was a symbolic art with the same word used in the LXX when God breathed the breath of life upon Adam (Genesis 2:7). It occurs also in Ezekiel 37:9. See Christ’s promise in John 16:23. Jesus gives the disciples a foretaste of the great pentecost. Receive ye the Holy Ghost (labete pneuma agion). Second aorist (ingressive) active imperative of lambanw. Note absence of article here (pneuma agion) though to pneuma to agion in John 14:26. No real distinction is to be observed, for Holy Spirit is treated as a proper name with or without the article.

The grammar is unmistakiable the disciples recieved the Holy Spirit before pentecost.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Were the disciples post pentecost “mature”? What what point in scripture were each of the disciples mature?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Giver, are you Jewish?

Do you understand when one is teaching using hypotheticals?

I have been speaking using hypotheticals and you seem not to get it.

 

[kleary]

Giver:

My wife had a hard time with the teaching that Christians are dead to sin, because she is a scrupulous person and sees any human failure as sin. John said all wrongdoing is sin but all sin doesn’t lead to death.Giver

Wow, you just said that there is a difference between types of sins! Mortal and Venial! Now that is very Catholic won’t you say?

Ken

 

[kleary]

Well then Giver, if we should for the sake of argument give you victory and agree with what you say then please answer for me the following:

A person goes to a Bible Study and during the study he accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour.

His conversion cannot be doubted. He lives a good life, everyone sees such a dramatic change in him since that night he accepted Jesus.

Then one day he comes home and catches his wife in bed with another man. Two days later he takes a gun from the closet and kills them both, his wife in the morning and the man in the evening. He thought well out the plan to kill them both. He was perfectly sane. He knew that what he was about to do was wrong in the eyes of God but he didn’t care because he thought God brought this on him.

Later on in the day as he is in hiding he realizes the wrong he has done. He repents of it out of true love of God, not for fear of Hell. He turns himself in. He then get the death penalty for the killings. All through his 10 year prison time on death row he is like before the murders, giving his life to Christ, preaching the Gospel now to inmates winning many souls for Christ.

Now… he is executed. According to you he going to Hell.

Ken

 

[kleary]

(Acts 5:1-6) “There was another man, however, called Ananias, His and his wife, Sapphira, agreed to sell a property; but with his wife’s connivance he kept back part of the proceeds, and brought the rest and presented it to the apostles. Ananias, ‘Peter said ‘how can Satan have so possessed you that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the money from the land? While you still owned the land, wasn’t it yours to keep, and after you had sold it wasn’t the money yours to do with as you liked? What put this scheme into your mind? It is not to men that you have lied, but to God.’ When he heard this Ananias fell down dead.”

The meaning of this passage is not what you say, that a true believer can never sin wilfully and deliberately. That has already been proven to you. However the meaning of this passage should be taught to you properly, not by yourself and the brain you have that thinks the teaching you have been given as to it is true. Once your head stops spinning God is calling you to repent of this evil you are doing by trying to teach others contrary to the truth that has been revealed by God through Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

 

[tomaskovarik]

Giver:

If you mean have I sinned, why of course many times. To sin now though would be my death, in that I could not ever be forgiven again.

 

[tomaskovarik]

tomaskovarik:
So, are you saying that you no longer sin? You know very well that this is not true, according to your gospel, nobody except for Jesus would make it to heaven. You have a pretty distorted understanding of christianity. You are preaching almost the opposite to what Jesus was preching. His gospel is about love and forgiveness followed by repentance. He will forgive you many times over, as long as you sincerely ask. Thats the beauty of christianity.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.” Did you notice: usurers, and Scripture doesn’t say anything about excessive interest.
Giver

Robert,

You’ve used these two passages in an attempt to prove that if a Christian commits “any” mortal sin they cannot go to heaven and that they never knew God etc. I think I may have discovered part of the problem that is causing you to think this way. Please note that in the first quotation you gave it says, “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them.”

Please be advised that your New Jerusalem Bible translation may be the source of your confusion. Please carefully read the following alternate translations of the verse:

– New Revised Standard
Hebrews 10:26 For if we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

– Simple English
Hebrews 10:26 We have received the truth; we know it. If we continue sinning on purpose, there will be no more sacrifices for sin,

– Weymouth’s New Testament
Hebrews 10:26 For if we **wilfully persist ** in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins.

It seems clear from these translations that persistent sin is what is being talked about. This might be described as continuing in a sinful life style. A person is not truly repentent if they are persistent in their sinful ways rather then accepting God’s grace to over come sin. If that’s the case, it’s obvious that there is no forgiveness.

Your quote from 1 Corinthians reinforces this point. It says, "You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.” This verse talks about immoral lives and then lists the types of immoral lives that are mortally sinful. The verse in no way describes someone that momentarily fell into a single mortal sin, repented, was truly sorry, and then led a holy life.

I hope this helps.

 

[TobyLue]

Giver, understand this very, very carefully. You have told others and even me that Jesus is the one teaching you. He taught you that the Catholic Church is wrong? I told you before and will tell you again. It is not Jesus that is teaching you these things. I shudder to think who is putting those thoughts in your mind. You are going against all that has been taught by the Church that Jesus founded some 2000 years ago. He assured the Church He would be with them till the end of time. Think about it please for the love of God. Why would Jesus allow His church to be in error for 2000 years and then suddenly you pop up and Jesus PERSONALLY is teaching you and only you the true interpretations of scripture? It has been asked in other threads but I dont think you have replied. How do you know it is Jesus teaching you the correct intrepretations? Is it simply because you had a miracle worked in your life and now you have these wild imaginations that Jesus personally is teaching you that His church got it all wrong? Dont you see the errors of your ways. First you make up this thread that anyone who knows God cannot sin. Then you start changing that well yes people still sin but there are sins that dont lead to death. A sin is a sin is a sin. Whether venial or mortal. Its still a sin. You said you sin many times, so does that mean at you know God but then you dont because you sin, but you then dont sin? that is and:whacky:. Come on,be sensible.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

…
…

…To sin now though would be my death, in that I could not ever be forgiven again.

Once again, you have committed an egregious error that is contrary to the bible.

Scripture says:

1 John 5-9
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
John makes it clear…we sin, and if we confess our sins then Jesus “will” forgive our sins.

1 John 2:1-2
MY LITTLE children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rev 2:4-5
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, **unless you repent. **Jesus is telling John to address the church at Ephesus and says that the Christians there must “repent.” If they repent then everything is fine. If they don’t repent they will be destroyed. Jesus says similar things to the other six churches concerning their transgressions and also warns them to “repent.” Apparently, Christians that sin can repent and be forgiven.

 

[Eireann]

Pax:

Once again, you have committed an egregious error that is contrary to the bible.

Scripture says:

1 John 5-9
If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
John makes it clear…we sin, and if we confess our sins then Jesus “will” forgive our sins.

1 John 2:1-2
MY LITTLE children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rev 2:4-5
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, **unless you repent. **Jesus is telling John to address the church at Ephesus and says that the Christians there must “repent.” If they repent then everything is fine. If they don’t repent they will be destroyed. Jesus says similar things to the other six churches concerning their transgressions and also warns them to “repent.” Apparently, Christians that sin can repent and be forgiven.

:bible1:

 

[Giver]

Daniel Marsh:

Numbers 11:16-30 (King James Version)

16And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.

17And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

18And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the LORD, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for it was well with us in Egypt: therefore the LORD will give you flesh, and ye shall eat.

19Ye shall not eat one day, nor two days, nor five days, neither ten days, nor twenty days;

20But even a whole month, until it come out at your nostrils, and it be loathsome unto you: because that ye have despised the LORD which is among you, and have wept before him, saying, Why came we forth out of Egypt?

21And Moses said, The people, among whom I am, are six hundred thousand footmen; and thou hast said, I will give them flesh, that they may eat a whole month.

22Shall the flocks and the herds be slain for them, to suffice them? or shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them, to suffice them?

23And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD’S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

24And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.
**
25And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

26But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
**
27And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

28And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

29And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD’S people were prophets, and that** the LORD would put his spirit upon them! **

30And Moses gat him into the camp, he and the elders of Israel.

Gee, I see at least two spiritual gifts at work here, administration and prophecy.

Isaiah 63:11
But he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people: Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he that put his holy Spirit within him, (DBY)

Moses was never baptized with the Holy Spirit.

(John 16:4-10)”I did not tell you this from the outset, because I was with you; but now I am going to the one who sent me. Not one of you has asked, ‘Where are you going?’ Yet you are sad at heart because I have told you this. Still, I must tell you the truth: it is for your own good that I am going because unless I go, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will show the world how wrong it was, about sin, and about who was in the right, and about judgement; about sin: proved by their refusal to believe in me; proved by my going to the Father and your seeing me no more; About judgement”
Giver

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Let me get this straight Giver, I show you a scripture from Numbers where Moses has the gift of administration from the Spirit, and that Spirit is shared with others who prophesy and you say Moses was not baptized in the Spirit? You are very funny indeed.

Let’s look at another OT saint, shall we?

2 Kings 2
9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”
"Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit," Elisha replied.

10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise not.”

11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.

13 He picked up the cloak that had fallen from Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. 14 Then he took the cloak that had fallen from him and struck the water with it. “Where now is the LORD, the God of Elijah?” he asked. **When he struck the water, it divided to the right and to the left, and he crossed over. **

15 The company of the prophets from Jericho, who were watching, said, “The spirit of Elijah is resting on Elisha.” And they went to meet him and bowed to the ground before him. 16 “Look,” they said, “we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the LORD has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley.”
“No,” Elisha replied, “do not send them.”

17 But they persisted until he was too ashamed to refuse. So he said, “Send them.” And they sent fifty men, who searched for three days but did not find him. 18 When they returned to Elisha, who was staying in Jericho, he said to them, “Didn’t I tell you not to go?”

Gee Elisha with the Gift of Miracles doing exactly what Moses did, who also had the gift of Miracles – go figure. Elisha was so filled with the Spirit that even his bones when he was buried and dead caused a ressurrection.

2 Kings 13:21 (King James Version)
And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
**
Speaking in other languages is not the only sign of being filled with the Spirit which appears to be your error in theology.
**

 

[Tonks40]

Daniel Marsh:

Let me get this straight Giver, I show you a scripture from Numbers where Moses has the gift of administration from the Spirit, and that Spirit is shared with others who prophesy and you say Moses was not baptized in the Spirit? You are very funny indeed.

I thought so, too!

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I Cor 12
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.** 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

spiritual gifts of OT saints come from the Holy Spirit.

Romans 12
exhortation
giving
leadership
mercy
prophecy
service
teaching

1 Corinthians 12
administration
apostle
discernment
faith
healing
helps
knowledge
miracles
prophecy
teaching
tongues
tongues interpretation
wisdom

Ephesians 4
apostle
evangelism
pastor
prophecy
teaching

Misc. Passages
celibacy (1 Cor. 7:7-8)
hospitality (1 Pet. 4:9-10)
martyrdom (1 Cor. 13:1-3)
missionary (Eph. 3:6-8)
voluntary poverty (1 Cor. 13:1-3)

ADMINISTRATION: 1 Cor. 12:28 - to steer the body toward the accomplishment of God-given goals and directives by planning, organizing, and supervising others (Greek Word: kubernesis - to steer, guide, helmsmen)

…

HEALING: 1 Cor. 12:9,28,30 - to be used as a means through which God makes people whole either physically, emotionally, mentally, or spiritually
…

LEADERSHIP: Rom. 12:8 - to stand before the people in such a way as to attend to the direction of the body with such care and diligence so as to motivate others to get involved in the accomplishment of these goals

…

MIRACLES: 1 Cor. 12:10,28 - to be enabled by God to perform mighty deeds which witnesses acknowledge to be of supernatural origin and means

…

PROPHECY: Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:10; Eph. 4:11 - to speak forth the message of God to His people (Greek Word: prophetes - the forth-telling of the will of God;‘pro’=forth; ‘phemi’=to speak)
…

mintools.com/gifts-list.htm**

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Lets look at Stephen in Acts, he never spoke in tongues

Acts 6 lists his gifts as,

8Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people. 9Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. These men began to argue with Stephen, 10but they could not stand up against his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke.

Acts 7 Stephen sees into heaven,

51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

54When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him.

The point is, Stephens’s gifts were wonders and miracles, preaching the gospel and dying for Christ. He plainly says the Holy Spirit was active in the OT times in prophets. He Saw Jesus Our LORD standing at the right hand of his Father.
In this text we have all three members of the Trinity active and accounted for.

 

[Giver]

Daniel Marsh:

Let me get this straight Giver, I show you a scripture from Numbers where Moses has the gift of administration from the Spirit, and that Spirit is shared with others who prophesy and you say Moses was not baptized in the Spirit? You are very funny indeed.

Let’s look at another OT saint, shall we?

2 Kings 2
9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”
"Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit," Elisha replied.

10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise not.”

11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.

13 He picked up the cloak that had fallen from Elijah and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. 14 Then he took the cloak that had fallen from him and struck the water with it. “Where now is the LORD, the God of Elijah?” he asked. **When he struck the water, it divided to the right and to the left, and he crossed over. **

15 The company of the prophets from Jericho, who were watching, said, “The spirit of Elijah is resting on Elisha.” And they went to meet him and bowed to the ground before him. 16 “Look,” they said, “we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the LORD has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley.”
“No,” Elisha replied, “do not send them.”

17 But they persisted until he was too ashamed to refuse. So he said, “Send them.” And they sent fifty men, who searched for three days but did not find him. 18 When they returned to Elisha, who was staying in Jericho, he said to them, “Didn’t I tell you not to go?”

Gee Elisha with the Gift of Miracles doing exactly what Moses did, who also had the gift of Miracles – go figure. Elisha was so filled with the Spirit that even his bones when he was buried and dead caused a ressurrection.

2 Kings 13:21 (King James Version)
And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
**
Speaking in other languages is not the only sign of being filled with the Spirit which appears to be your error in theology.
**

This is how I understand God’s interaction with people before He died for us and then send His Holy Spirit to be with us. Jesus came to save us. Before He came, died, and rose from the dead, no one was possessed by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:25) “as David says of him: ‘I saw the Lord before me always, for with him at my right hand nothing can shake me,” Jesus was there with him, and the Holy Spirit moved him, but didn’t possess David. The Holy Spirit wasn’t given to man until Pentecost.

(John 16:4-10)”I did not tell you this from the outset, because I was with you; but now I am going to the one who sent me. Not one of you has asked, ‘Where are you going?’ Yet you are sad at heart because I have told you this. Still, I must tell you the truth: it is for your own good that I am going because unless I go, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will show the world how wrong it was, about sin, and about who was in the right, and about judgement; about sin: proved by their refusal to believe in me; proved by my going to the Father and your seeing me no more; About judgement”