P
Path_Finder
Guest
Thank you for your posts BrassAnkles, they have been stimulating for thought and reflection and informative and kind of you to tell us this.
- Status
B
BrassAnkles
Guest
As someone who has struggled with identity issues I want to help others and let them know it is a lie that they cannot change. A compilation of thousands of independent studies have shown this as well. There is no longer any reason to question if somehow we interpreted the Bible wrongly, science completely supports us. God bless all my fellow Christians who speak the truth. Here is a summary from the study I reference:
*The huge amount of change in sexual orientation is one of the clearest evidences that homosexuality is not hard-wired by genes or anything in the biological environment.
Large studies now show that:
For adults:
Code:
About half of those with exclusive SSA move towards heterosexuality over a lifetime. Put another way, 3% of the practising heterosexual population (both men and women) claim to have once been either bisexual or homosexual.
These changes are not therapeutically induced, but happen “naturally” in life, some very quickly.
Most changes in sexual orientation are towards exclusive heterosexuality.
Numbers of people who have changed towards exclusive OSA are greater than current numbers of bisexuals and exclusive SSA people combined. In other words, “Ex-gays outnumber actual gays.”
Exclusive OSA is 17 times as stable as exclusive SSA for men, and 30 times as stable as exclusive SSA for women. (Women move about more in their sexual orientation than men.)
Code:
Most teenagers will change from SSA. In fact, in the 16 to 17 year age group, 98% will move from homosexuality and bisexuality towards heterosexuality.
16 year olds saying they are SSA or Bi-attracted are 25 times more likely to say they are opposite sex attracted at the age of 17 than those with a heterosexual orientation are likely to identify themselves as bi-sexual or homosexual.
16-year olds who claim they are opposite sex attracted will overwhelmingly remain that way.
E
estesbob
Guest
Thank you for the info! Now, as we say in Texas, you have put the cat among the pigeons. Any suggestion that Homosexuality is a choice will as surely bring howls of outrage and accusations of bigotry as night follows day. If Homosexuality is a choice then it becomes just another garden variety sexual sin, something all of us struggle with. Nothing “special” and most certainly nothing to be proud of.
R
Reaching4Grace
Guest
To the contrary, people do indeed choose their “sexual orientation.”
“I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a young woman.” - Job 31:1
Job is revealed to have made at least three choices involving his sexual orientation. One, he chose to not abstain from sex. Two, he chose to remain heterosexual. Three, he chose to abstain from lusting after any woman other than his wife.
Job made three good choices. For those choices and others, Job was judged favorably.
As for those who either choose to turn to the sexual orientation of the sin defined as an abomination in Leviticus 20:13 or who have turned that direction and choose not to resist it and fight against it, as Job righteously chose to resist and fight against wrongful lust - the same chapter of Job refers to them:
“2 For what is our lot from God above,
our heritage from the Almighty on high?
3 Is it not ruin for the wicked,
disaster for those who do wrong?
4 Does he not see my ways
and count my every step?”
God sees our ways, knows the number of hairs on the head of each one of us, the number of molecules in each of those hairs, the number of atoms in each of those molecules, the number of electrons, protons and neutrons in each of those atoms… ad infinitum.
We should choose what’s right, no matter how difficult the struggle and no matter whether we win the battle or not … because God sees what is in our hearts and knows whether or not we speak the truth when we say we are thankful to him for providing salvation from our sinful nature. Our choices, in the most secret and hidden places of our hearts, are what God cares about.
We are instructed to submit ourselves to God and resist the devil and all temptations (James 4:7) and that applies not merely to the “common” sins but also to the sins categorized as the worst, the abominations.
If any man who has engaged in sodomy or any person who has committed any of the other sins spelled out in the same context of Leviticus chapter 20 is ashamed of himself or herself for having done so, then there remains hope for that person.
P
Path_Finder
Guest
It’s like the ol’ Jayhawk expression, “Kansas had better stop raising corn and start raising cain.”
F
FollowChrist34
Guest
Yes, thanks for this. This is fascinating. I wondered for example about David Bowie who seemed to move more or less from bisexual to straight. I always just figured maybe some people realized they weren’t gay after all. I didn’t really think it was a common trend though. I wonder why this is discussed so little. The official line is that change is IMPOSSIBLE and to imply it is is to cause great pain and harm to gay people.
S
SMGS127
Guest
These studies have been thorougly debunked, both on and off these forums, and the only people who will believe them are those who desperately wish them to be true and do not care about methodological ethics.
I do find it telling that you have admitted that you are bisexual in attractions; it seems very illogical to generalize your experiences to that of a monosexual (e.g., purely heterosexual or purely homosexual) person, no? Sexual orientation does not change. Just because you can be attracted to both sexes does not mean that a lesbian can become sexually attracted to a guy or that a straight man can become sexually attracted to a guy. Heterosexuality and homosexuality are morally equivalent in Catholic teaching; only the sexual acts are differed in morality.
S
SMGS127
Guest
Why need to proclaim being celibate? All he’s announcing is that he is solely attracted to men. Why does he not get the benefit of the doubt but your child’s heterosexual friends do? He is merely providing more leaders for gay kids to look up to to show them they don’t need to be ashamed for who they are as people and for their immutable, intransient physical characteristics. We should no more be ashamed of our sexual orientation than our eye color or height. Instead, we should seek to use it in a way consistent with Catholic teaching. Those who seek to shame kids into hiding their attractions will have to deal with the teenage LGBT suicide rate on their own conscience. Mine, personally, is clear.
B
BrassAnkles
Guest
These studies haven’t been debunked by anyone other that Gay rights supporting sources.
I would also ask you as a Christian not to defer to those that hate God and resist Him but give a fellow Christian the benefit of doubt, such as the scientist who presented this study.
B
BrassAnkles
Guest
Actually leading a child to believe they are born homosexual increases their likelihood that they will commit suicide. this should be especially telling given that we are at an all time high of homosexual acceptance in our public life. I would also thank God that I didn’t meet a person like you in my life when I was struggling because I might still be trapped. If I were you I wouldn’t want to take the chance of misleading children based on a lie propagated by an organization that hates God.
B
BrassAnkles
Guest
Here is a link from a recent study that shows children suffering from identity issues have a higher incidence of suicide:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662085/
Given that we are at an all time high of accepting homosexual behavior in the US and the world in general it goes against logic to try to convince any child that is struggling that they are born gay as this will increase their risk of suicide.
We Catholics have a real solution for troubled children and His name is Jesus Christ who does not condemn us for our sins so there is no need for guilt for wrongdoing as we are forgiven as long as we ask.
Therefore, telling a child they are born homosexual to prevent them from having guilt will actually cause they guilt to increase which is the exact opposite of what the Gospel teaches.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662085/
Given that we are at an all time high of accepting homosexual behavior in the US and the world in general it goes against logic to try to convince any child that is struggling that they are born gay as this will increase their risk of suicide.
We Catholics have a real solution for troubled children and His name is Jesus Christ who does not condemn us for our sins so there is no need for guilt for wrongdoing as we are forgiven as long as we ask.
Therefore, telling a child they are born homosexual to prevent them from having guilt will actually cause they guilt to increase which is the exact opposite of what the Gospel teaches.
S
SMGS127
Guest
Actually, we are at an all-time high for bullying of gay people too. With increased acceptance comes increased backlash from the right-wing. As someone who grew up gay and had to put up with the miserable bullying that accompanies public school for those who are gay or lesbian, let me tell you that this isn’t some rosy pro-gay era we’re in. People are fighting left and right to institute legalized harassment of gay individuals by fighting anti-bullying regulations, allowing for the firing and eviction of gay individuals at will, fighting for the right to bar gay people from even the most basic of services, etc.
This is an extremely hard time in our country to be gay. I have gotten many PMs on this board from people thanking me for actually representing the community in such a way that an orthodox gay person does not feel completely ostracized from the Church because of their sexual orientation. What conservatives are doing here is destroying people’s faith by instituting all kinds of fake rules (“one must become heterosexual,” “one must hate their homosexual orientation,” “one must avoid all emotional intimacy with those of the same sex out of scandal and temptation,” “one must feel shame for being gay,” etc.). It is not a position of the Church and has never in the entire history of the Church been a stipulation that a gay person must deny their very existence, being, self, and the characteristics within, such as their sexual orientation. Like all temptations, including heterosexual ones, the sin is in acting upon a temptation, not the temptation itself.
For the last time, there is no contradiction between being gay and being Catholic. And I will not stop fighting for my LGBT brothers and sisters in Christ against those who wish to shame us for personal ideological reasons.
O
One_point
Guest
You in particular, unless you’ve changed your views since I last read you, do more than say “temptations are not the sin, but the acting on the sin” which not a single conservative here denies, unless you’d like to point them out if they do. In the past what you do is insist the temptation is not a temptation but something positive, or that the orientation is not a temptation but something positive which is where you clash with those who reject this straightaway. You also do more than say gay people can be emotionally intimate with other gay people, which no conservative denies. Essentially, the position is you can have a romantic affair, get a real “lesbian girlfriend” for yourself and do everything physically short of having sex, which is what all reject outright, not “emotional intimacy” with other gay people, which is just pure friendship that everyone can have with anyone regardless of orientation.
O
One_point
Guest
The sin alone is not the only thing that matters in Catholicism but what leads to the sin as well, the tendency and concupiscence is a part of our religion too and most of the spiritual theology is about healing concupiscence which is a spiritual malaise, so I don’t know how a spiritual malaise can be morally neutral, and I guess that is why they church calls it objectively disordered.
Heterosexuality and homosexuality are NOT objectively equivalent. Gay apologists who try to drum this message hit a wall because it is false and everyone who knows what human, male, female, sex, are, will know without brainwashing, that one represents the proper order, the other a departure from that—disorder. Heterosexuality is the standard, the design of God, to compare it with homosexuality is to call homosexuality a disorder. To compare it otherwise is like saying God’s design and an error in that design are equivalent. Or that God’s will and a departure from it are equivalent. You may comfortable say so about a human designer but not the Divine designer. deviations from his design represent a fall and no catholic can consider them to be equal to the actual design (heterosexuality) which is God’s will. The deviation is not God’s will, no more than cancer is God’s will, though cancer patients are not sinners and certainly not “proud” of the cancer that ravages their bodies. It exists only because God respects free will and has allowed the consequences of Adam’s sin to follow through naturally.
O
One_point
Guest
All of things are good in themselves and perfectly according to God’s design. I’ve never heard of people being “proud” of blindness or other disorders, but rather of their ability to be their best despite them. In other words these are more like unchosen challenges to normal human living, they are not in anyway like looks or talent. In any case, Christians should not really be “proud” even of the good things they have. They should be grateful to God for them and accepting of whatever is in their lives that they cannot change, because we know we and everything we have belongs to God is a gift, so pride should not be a normal part of our vocabulary. We should rather say, I am thankful for what God has done for me than I am proud to be x, y, z, no matter how positive it is.
S
SMGS127
Guest
You misrepresent my position to a degree. You are correct in saying that I believe every part of us, even temptations toward sinful objects, can be used by us in positive manners. I fail to see what is controversial about this position, and if you do not disagree with it, I would like to know that as well. Personally I think straight people do it all the time, molding their lust into adoration of their spouse.
However, I do not believe that gay people can do “anything physically short of sex.” It is a misrepresentation of my position to say that. I believe that gay people can engage in any activity that is not sexual. This includes cuddling (if nonsexual to them), hugging (if nonsexual), even kissing if nonsexual! After all, straight people kiss all the time in most cultures. I also believe gay people can use their orientations as motivators to care for one another and even commit to each other in nonsexual partnerships, to be each other’s girlfriend or boyfriend (the dreaded words, I suppose) in a nonsexual manner. To provide for each other’s health and emotional wellbeing. All in a nonsexual, nonsinful manner.
So yes I believe the orientation can be used in a positive manner. I also respect those who believe it can’t be used in a positive manner and who wish to avoid thoughts on the subject. But neither stance requires a denial of self nor should require one. No one should ever be shamed over their temptations.
S
SMGS127
Guest
Well of course not. I have never claimed they were objectively equivalent. The object of a heterosexual orientation is a marriage, whereas the object of a homosexual orientation is, when considered in light of divine order, deep caretaking of another member of the same sex. Of course these aren’t equivalent objects.
However, heterosexuality and homosexuality are morally equivalent. A straight person and a gay person have no moral differences by virtue of their inborn orientation.
O
One_point
Guest
The “object” of a homosexual orientation is a false imitation of a heterosexual union, which is why it is disordered. This “deep caretaking” is made up stuff. It is a sexual orientation precisely because its ordered towards sexual union that is not complementary.
Yes, a gay person is not a sinner just because they like members of the same sex. No one says they are.
O
One_point
Guest
To “use” something positively is quite different from affirming it as good in itself. We use everything positively without saying it’s good. In no way can temptations be good. Temptation is a pull/push away from God; luring someone away from God, it can never be said that it is good. We have no problem rejecting cancer as bad without also rejecting cancer patients as equally bad. We accept them easily as goods in themselves, with an unfortunate condition, but gay people think it is impossible for their condition to me seen as a negative without themselves being seen as a negative. That is because they think their very selves is the orientation which is a lie straight from the bowels of hell. Their selves can no more be homosexual than my own self can be my tendency to sloth and pride. To say so is not to know who we really are, what the self really is.
Yes, you basically saying that catholics claiming to be faithful can go out get themselves into a committed romantic affair with a fellow of the same sex they are sexually attracted to, and then manage be physically intimate, share beds, live together, kiss, (make out, if I remember correctly) all in this affair keeping to “nonsexual” intimacy, as if they are from another planet where sexually attracted people come together, develop a relationship, commit to each other, express their relationship with kisses and all, and magically never ever commit a single sexual sin whether in thought or deed. Indeed! Nothing wrong here at all.
Acceptance is one thing, positively nurturing and encouraging what you know to be a disordered orientation is quite something else. I don’t understand why your “acceptance” should differ in any way from my acceptance of my sloth or pride. Your temptations are part of your experience which you must accept, but they are not “self”. That is another lie being sold to gay people by a world that worships sexual gratification. Your “self” is a human female, designed for union with a human male; your attractions that point you towards the wrong object are part of your experiences but they are not you. That is our faith.
Y
Yeoman
Guest
I just wish an Apple CEO could come out and announce that he was proud they’d come up with an Iphone update that didn’t screw up something on your Iphone. . .
- Status