Archbishop Warns Obama: You’ll Cause 'Conflict Between Church and State of Enormous Proportions’

[ringil]

Well now you will know that the Church opposes same sex civil unions just as strongly as same sex “marriage”. Here is the document, if you refuse to now read it you are guilty of willful ignorance.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

This is the Church’s official teaching from the Vatican written by our current Holy Father, and Pope John Paul II ordered it’s publication. Here the Holy Father is teaching on faith and morals so the teaching is binding on all Catholics. We can choose to submit… or disobey and sin, but to claim ignorance is no longer an option.

An excerpt:

We have a DUTY to oppose homosexual unions.

Who the heck are you to say what I am guilty of?

Just provide the information without the excess jab OK?

Read my signature.

 

[JReducation]

What choices do the bishops have in opposing the requirements placed on Catholic institutions by the Obama administration? What do you think will be their most probable response?

I was impressed at the strength of Archbishop Dolan’s letter. Will there be actions to back up the words? If so, how much can the Church do?

It’s not what can the Church do, but what the Church is already doing, which is going to harm many people in the end.

Almost every major diocese that had an adoption service has closed it. Those religious orders that still own their colleges and universities are talking about closing them. Some dioceses no long offer benefit packages to their employees in order to avoid paying insurance for same-sex coupltes. Employees have to buy their own policies. Some Catholic hospitals are alrady talking about stopping all OB/GYN services. Several religious superiors have already stated that they will pull their religious from hospitals and schools that force them to buy into these proposals. The laity will have to take over or close them.

I told my brothers that we can move into apostolates that do not require us to hire lay people. We’ll just have less pregnancy centers, shelters, homes for the dying and youth services. We’ll work with volunteers instead of paid staff. We won’t offer any medical care. When you reduce your staff to volunteers, you also have to reduce your hours and the number of facilities that you run.

Those are some of the ideas that are floating around. Hopefully, the Catholic citizen will step up to the plate and run interference with the White House.

What saddens me is that I get the feeling that for many Catholics, as long as they have their Sunday mass, they don’t really care about all of the other apostolic works that religious and clergy provide. If these other works close down, it makes little difference ot some people. That’s sad. Every Catholic should care about the apostolate, even if it does not benefit you directly.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

That’s sad. Every Catholic should care about the apostolate, even if it does not benefit you directly.

I was crushed when the last Catholic hospital in New York City, St. Vincent’s, had to close. As many rich Catholics as there are in the NYC area, you’d think that they’d have done something to keep it afloat.

Contrast that with the Jews. When Mt. Sinai Hospital was in terrible debt some seven years ago, the cry went out, and the Jewish people of the area came through for their hospital.

 

[Darryl1958]

It’s not what can the Church do, but what the Church is already doing, which is going to harm many people in the end.

Almost every major diocese that had an adoption service has closed it. Those religious orders that still own their colleges and universities are talking about closing them. Some dioceses no long offer benefit packages to their employees in order to avoid paying insurance for same-sex coupltes. Employees have to buy their own policies. Some Catholic hospitals are alrady talking about stopping all OB/GYN services. Several religious superiors have already stated that they will pull their religious from hospitals and schools that force them to buy into these proposals. The laity will have to take over or close them.

I told my brothers that we can move into apostolates that do not require us to hire lay people. We’ll just have less pregnancy centers, shelters, homes for the dying and youth services. We’ll work with volunteers instead of paid staff. We won’t offer any medical care. When you reduce your staff to volunteers, you also have to reduce your hours and the number of facilities that you run.

Those are some of the ideas that are floating around. Hopefully, the Catholic citizen will step up to the plate and run interference with the White House.

What saddens me is that I get the feeling that for many Catholics, as long as they have their Sunday mass, they don’t really care about all of the other apostolic works that religious and clergy provide. If these other works close down, it makes little difference ot some people. That’s sad. Every Catholic should care about the apostolate, even if it does not benefit you directly.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

The bigger the government, the smaller the Church.

 

[JReducation]

I was crushed when the last Catholic hospital in New York City, St. Vincent’s, had to close. As many rich Catholics as there are in the NYC area, you’d think that they’d have done something to keep it afloat.

Contrast that with the Jews. When Mt. Sinai Hospital was in terrible debt some seven years ago, the cry went out, and the Jewish people of the area came through for their hospital.

Look at our hospital in NY, St.Clare on the W. Side. It served many poor people. Catholics never came to its aid.

American Catholics have adopted an attitude of utilitarianism. “If it does not serve me or meet my needs, it has nothing to do with me.” Jews do not have the same value system. They see themselves as a people.

The bigger the government, the smaller the Church.

That’s an interesting way of seeing it. I’ll have to think about that.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[irishpatrick]

It’s not what can the Church do, but what the Church is already doing, which is going to harm many people in the end.

Almost every major diocese that had an adoption service has closed it. Those religious orders that still own their colleges and universities are talking about closing them. Some dioceses no long offer benefit packages to their employees in order to avoid paying insurance for same-sex coupltes. Employees have to buy their own policies. Some Catholic hospitals are alrady talking about stopping all OB/GYN services. Several religious superiors have already stated that they will pull their religious from hospitals and schools that force them to buy into these proposals. The laity will have to take over or close them.

I told my brothers that we can move into apostolates that do not require us to hire lay people. We’ll just have less pregnancy centers, shelters, homes for the dying and youth services. We’ll work with volunteers instead of paid staff. We won’t offer any medical care. When you reduce your staff to volunteers, you also have to reduce your hours and the number of facilities that you run.

Those are some of the ideas that are floating around. Hopefully, the Catholic citizen will step up to the plate and run interference with the White House.

What saddens me is that I get the feeling that for many Catholics, as long as they have their Sunday mass, they don’t really care about all of the other apostolic works that religious and clergy provide. If these other works close down, it makes little difference ot some people. That’s sad. Every Catholic should care about the apostolate, even if it does not benefit you directly.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Is it not true that the various Diocese’ are closing adoptions because they lost federal and state money? If that is the case, can’t they reopen in a smaller way without those monies?

 

[irishpatrick]

The bigger the government, the smaller the Church.

and…the smaller the citizen…we shrink at rate at a pace closely matched to how quickly the state grows and how much control the state takes from us…

 

[JReducation]

Is it not true that the various Diocese’ are closing adoptions because they lost federal and state money? If that is the case, can’t they reopen in a smaller way without those monies?

There are several situations at play here. What happens is that the states don’t all agree on adoption policies.

In some states, if you refuse to adopt out to same-sex couples, you lose government funding. Unless the Catholic laity picks up the tab, the adoption service cannot continue.

In some states, such as MA, if you refuse to adopt out to same-sex couples, you get fined. Even if the Catholics came up with the money to keep the agency open, there is not hope unless the law changes.

Some states have actually tied adoption into abortion rights. When a pregnant woman presents herself, you must present abortion as an optioin equal to adoption, which is stunning to say the least. If you don’t do that, then you are denied funding or even licensing.

I’m very familair with this, because my community works in five pregnancy centers.

Remember, you must have a license to run an adoption agency.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Personanongrata]

Whatever. I doubt the percentage of Catholics supporting the president in the 2012 elections will drop significantly from the number that supported him in 2008.

Ender

Given the alternatives on the other side, I think the percentage will be higher in 2012.

 

[pnewton]

Remember, you must have a license to run an adoption agency.

This is why even what is seen as legitimate regulation by both parties is a path to tyranny. This is no slippery slope but a proven reality as this administration is proving. A president is allowed to shut down all public and private activity he does not agree with. This is what tolerance has brought us to. I do not blame the Democrats totally, just mostly. If this trend does not stop at the polls, we will see bishops, priests and lay Catholics arrested and imprisoned for being faithfully Catholic within a generation.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

cnsnews.com/news/article/darn-tooting-obama-brags-about-hhs-reg-catholic-bishops-call-attack-liberty?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

‘Darn Tooting!’ Obama Brags About HHS Reg Catholic Bishops Call Attack on Liberty

The Obamacare’s mandate that all individuals must buy health insurance, the “preventive services” regulation would require all American Catholics to buy health care plans that pay for sterilizations, contraceptives and abortions — all of which violate Catholic moral teaching.
Since about 1/4 of all hospitals are run by Catholic Charities. If the Obama administration try to force them to do abortions or suffer heavy fines, the Church will have to close the hospitals. Who loses then? Do we needs more unemployed people ?

We have another thread on Prisons giving up pork to appease Muslims.However, the Obama administration have no problem DEMANDING that every American Catholic and Christian of good will who believes in the Truth literally put themselves in a position wherein they are in grave sin and are rejecting and betraying Christ, and are thus in danger of eternal damnation, according to the teachings of Christ and His Church. This is a DIRECT VIOLATION OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT. ObamaCare makes it FUNCTIONALLY IMPOSSIBLE to be a Catholic.

When they advocate violence to member of the Tea Party you said nothing because you were not a member of the Tea Party. When the governor of S.C advocate suspending the elections, you said nothing because you don’t care about democracy. When they come for the Catholic hospitals … You get my meaning. This man needs to be stop in 2011.

It seems to me you are saying that all Catholics should move out of the country and live in another country.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

The bigger the government, the smaller the Church.

Not always. Look at the middle ages.

Personally, I’m for a relatively large government…if it is Catholic.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I agree, but I’m unclear as to whether yo or Dale M are right about interracial couples. The liberals are framing homosexual unions as equivalent, which is why there is understandable concern from our Bishops.

Fair enough.

We must, in the way we express our worldview, embody charity and non-judgment while simultaneously being true to important - and difficult - principles. It is certainly a difficult line to walk.

 

[JReducation]

It seems to me you are saying that all Catholics should move out of the country and live in another country.

This may not be as strange as it sounds. There are some religious superiors who have said that if they can’t function in the USA, they will pull their entire order out of the USA or at the very least, retreat to doing apostolic work in areas that don’t require lay involvement. Essentially, this will mean starving the laity of the presence of religious. Were this to ever happen in a grand scale, the laity would only have secular priests to serve them. Religious brothers and sisters, and priests who are religious, would be pulled from the maintsream, not because they don’t want to serve, but because the legal system makes it impossible to serve. We have in place many religious superiors who are very tough on this and will not bend to the government.

The bishops are in a different spot form that of religious superiors. A bishop is attached to a diocese and he cannot close down a diocese, pick it up and move it or close down his parishes. The bishops are really in a very tight position. If some of these laws pass, the bishops and the diocesan clergy are the ones who will be fined or go to jail.

The religious are not incardinated into any diocese. They can stop their work, change it, move up the street, cut back or leave the country altogether.

We really have to support our bishops. They are going to be hammered by the government.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Darryl1958]

Not always. Look at the middle ages.

Personally, I’m for a relatively large government…if it is Catholic.

The Middle Ages were basically feudal in nature, which is just a step above organized anarchy. Private wars, and self contained manses were the order of the day in the Middle Ages. The rise of nationalism and absolute monarchies brought something somewhat more large in the way of government, and Bismark increased this trend, but these governments arose as often as not opposed to papal power than in obedience to it.

If it is a relatively large government, it is not a Catholic one. Subsidiarity entails keeping governance as local as possible, and that is pretty much dogma. Large totalitarian theocratic government cannot by definition then, be a Catholic one. Like Catholics who support the leftist agenda of abortion rights and redefining marriage in the name of “compassion” such a government would be Catholic in name only, but would otherwise be heretical according to Catholic doctrine.

 

[Darryl1958]

and…the smaller the citizen…we shrink at rate at a pace closely matched to how quickly the state grows and how much control the state takes from us…

Suffice it to say as government grows, everything else shrinks. This may or may not be true of big business though, which as often as not develops a symbiotic relationship with big government against the interests of the middle class.

 

[Elvis_Guy]

Hi, all,

The Bishops are right.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church is abiding in the truth.

President Barak Hussien Obama II is in error.

American is in dire danger of losing her claim of “…with liberty and justice for all.”

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don

Amen man

 

[Dan_Daly]

The Archbishop’s letter is good, but I’d strongly disagree with this:

The Administration‟s failure to change course on this matter will, as the attached analysis indicates, precipitate a national conflict between Church and State of enormous proportions and to the detriment of both institutions.

There already IS a national conflict between Church and State of enormous proportions, on this and many other issues.

Pax and God bless.

 

[Elvis_Guy]

Good morning, kslat,

Oh, I see what you’re saying. Had to read your opening line about three times.

No, that’s not what I meant: same sex marriage is unjust and infringes the freedom from militant gays who want to be more equal. The perfect liberty in Christ Jesus to practice a Christian life without being called homophobes.
I sincerely think that gays have always had the same civil rights as any other segment of the population: to vote, right to equal housing, and equal opportunity of employment. That’s civil rights. They’ve always had the same criminal rights, when arrested. All those other ‘rights’ they’re wailing about are imaginary.

God loves you,
Don

Yep…they actually or I should say a very Militant (and they are militant) have an actual Manifesto a friend showed it to me online…it STATES…that they KNOW it is smoke and mirrors…things such as Marriage…they want that only to “have a sure footing to obtain greater powers” they admit it! lol…good “eye”.

 

[Darryl1958]

The Archbishop’s letter is good, but I’d strongly disagree with this:

There already IS a national conflict between Church and State of enormous proportions, on this and many other issues.

Pax and God bless.

What the Archbishop would be implying then, is that this is only the tip of the iceberg as the present trajectory we are on continues in an exponential fashion.

It is true. Compared to even fifty years ago, the ability of Americans to publicly express their Christian faith has shrunk to an alarming degree. The process was so gradual that few are even old enough to remember when it was any different.

America is a much less free country as a result of this. What is happening now is an increase in the rate of this same trend.