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Archbishop Warns Obama: You’ll Cause 'Conflict Between Church and State of Enormous Proportions’
- Thread starter The_Reginator
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irishpatrick
Guest
Thank you the explanation. So, two questions:There are several situations at play here. What happens is that the states don’t all agree on adoption policies.
In some states, if you refuse to adopt out to same-sex couples, you lose government funding. Unless the Catholic laity picks up the tab, the adoption service cannot continue.
In some states, such as MA, if you refuse to adopt out to same-sex couples, you get fined. Even if the Catholics came up with the money to keep the agency open, there is not hope unless the law changes.
Some states have actually tied adoption into abortion rights. When a pregnant woman presents herself, you must present abortion as an optioin equal to adoption, which is stunning to say the least. If you don’t do that, then you are denied funding or even licensing.
I’m very familair with this, because my community works in five pregnancy centers.
Remember, you must have a license to run an adoption agency.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
- Could there not simply be a financial campaign to help run an agency?
- If not, then is there any way the Church can take adoptions private? Helping children is, after all, part of the Mission of the Church.
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donsnow
Guest
Hi, Br. JR, OSF,My community expects me to take a break to pray with them. LOL
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Of course they do.
Say a prayer for me, too, please? Missed Church today because of depression.God loves you and yours,
Don
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donsnow
Guest
Hi, kslat,Heh, sorry…I’m inherently confusing…
Awesome. I’m totally with you on that front.Plus, there’s no such thing as “couple’s rights.” I love that line…
Don’t worry about it, the lead line of my post was poorly phrased, confusing.
Yes, I opine that militant gays want to be what George Orwell termed “more equal” in his novel Animal Farm. Marriage is mostly a duty to beget children. Imaginary rights, says it best.
God loves you,
Don
The_Reginator
Active member
As a Canadian what really burns me is the fact that, in my province at least, my PSA test, eye appointments, dentistry, etc are not covered. But I my tax dollars are paying to kill children via OHIP (Ontario’s health plan).
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JReducation
Guest
The problem is that if you don’t comply with the state’s rules, they won’t grant you a license to operate.
I’m sorry to hear about your depression. You know, many years ago, many, I was on an airplane. As we were landing the flight attendant called my name to come up to the front. I did. She told me that when we landed, there would be an ariline employee waiting to greet me.Hi, Br. JR, OSF,
Of course they do.
God loves you and yours,
Don
When we landed, there was the airline employee. I approached her and she told me that I was to call my mother immediately.
When I called my mother she told me that there had been an accident that I needed to return. I took the next flight back. I had no idea of the gravity of the situation. My mom did not say.
When I arrived I called and my mom told me what hospital to go to. By this time, I was shaking. When I arrived at the hospital, a social worker came to greet me and pulled me into a room. She explained that there had been an accident. My wife, three children and dad were in the car. My wife and father had been killed on impact. My daughter and youngest son were OK. My middle son was in critical care.
I remember being too numb to cry. She led me to see my 7-year old son. He was laying there with tubes coming out of every oravice. After a few hours, the doctor said, “I’m sorry. He’s brain dead.” I asked for a second opnion. The second opinion was the same. I could keep him attached to a machine that was breathing for him or turn it off. He was not coming back. His brain was gone.
I brought my other two children to say goodbye to their brother. My duagher was 9 and my son was 4. The injured one was 7. They said goodbye to their brother. I nodded to the doctor and he turned off the machine. I watch quietly. Not single tear. My life was upside down. Thee people in my family were gone. I thought I would never move again.
I went before the Blessed Mother and I remember looking into her face and all I could say was as the thief said to Jesus, “Remember me.” For six months all I could say when I prayed was, “Remember me.”
Fastforward the clock. Today, my 9-year old daugher is a medical doctor. She takes care of children who have no medical insurance, only them. My 4-year old son is now an artist and works as a graphic designer. I’m a Franciscan Brother of Life and I founded a program for poor fathers who are in crisis pregnancies.
As heavy as the depression felt, Mary never forgot me.
When you can’t go to mass, just ask Our Lady to remember you. She will never forget you.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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irishpatrick
Guest
I thought that only applied to institutions with public funding?The problem is that if you don’t comply with the state’s rules, they won’t grant you a license to operate.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
There are certain services that require licensing, regardless of who funds it. Adoption agencies are one of them, so are medical dispensaries and hospitals, schools and colleges and others.
For example, a sister who is a medical doctor at a Catholic hospital cannot practice medicine without being licensed by the state, even if the hospital gets no funding, neither can one who is a nurse.
The Alexian Brothers are having a heck of a time here. The are an order of brothers who are not priests. All of them are doctors, nurses, medical technicians, hospital administrators, pharmacists and other medical professionals. They have a network of hospitals, nursing homes and clinics that serve the poor. They get no money from the state. But all of their brothers and employees need licneses. Their institutions need licenses from the Joint Commission of Hospitals in each state where they operate. The government can deny you the license if you choose not to comply with the law.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
G
gubernova
Guest
The archbishop does not understand the separation of church and state…
J
JReducation
Guest
I would say that he does. It’s the President who does not understand it, since it’s the President who wants to create laws that would cripple the work of the Church, when those laws are neither necessary nor morally justifiable. The only justification is political.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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gubernova
Guest
The archbishop is the one in error because he believes all laws should benefit the Catholic Church. You reversed the logic on separation of church and state. The state makes decisions based on the will of the people and is not held hostage by Catholics.
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
The administration is not “at war” with the Church. It doesn’t care about the Church enough to be at war with it.
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
No Catholic Church official has stated or implied that the United States government, let alone “the will of the people” should be held hostage by any religion, including its own.
Morality is not apart from governance, nor from societal institutions. Morality is foundational to the main institutions of society (education, marriage, family – and yes, even law). Civil law itself is not divorced from morality; it springs from morality. And competing moralities, when represented by various religions and those with no religion, can attempt to persuade the general public as to the best course of action.
“Church” is not “separate” from State. It is merely that a single religion is not formally identified with (most) States. That is the limit of the separation of “church” from “state.” In fact, as BrotherJR notes above, the State is compelled to allow the free exercise of all religions in society without restriction from those who wish to silence religion.
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gubernova
Guest
Then the morality you want is one that benefits your religion, and tries to enforce your “beliefs” into law. There are competing moralities in this country and if morality is only the result of religious belief then where would be the objectiveness. If Islamics lived in this country and held political power would it then be okay for them to pursue their religious (moral) agenda…
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irishpatrick
Guest
So, then, can the Church as a mediator for adoptions in private manner?There are certain services that require licensing, regardless of who funds it. Adoption agencies are one of them, so are medical dispensaries and hospitals, schools and colleges and others.
For example, a sister who is a medical doctor at a Catholic hospital cannot practice medicine without being licensed by the state, even if the hospital gets no funding, neither can one who is a nurse.
The Alexian Brothers are having a heck of a time here. The are an order of brothers who are not priests. All of them are doctors, nurses, medical technicians, hospital administrators, pharmacists and other medical professionals. They have a network of hospitals, nursing homes and clinics that serve the poor. They get no money from the state. But all of their brothers and employees need licneses. Their institutions need licenses from the Joint Commission of Hospitals in each state where they operate. The government can deny you the license if you choose not to comply with the law.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
It would seem if there no other options, than we experiencing real authentic persecution of a legal nature.
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
No. Neither I nor the Church is advocating for “benefits” for the Roman Church in America. Both Church officials and I
advocate for benefits for society.Further no one is “enforcing” “beliefs.” A moral framework is being suggested (not “forced” or “enforced”) which corresponds to the healthy flourishing of a society, since society is always considering the moral consequences when it legislates and when it constructs criminal laws, and when it suggests penalties for abridgement of laws and regulations. Even secular institutions such as secular hospitals and schools have ethics boards. A moral framework and a set of ethical guidelines do not necessarily spring from religious beliefs and are not necessarily allied with a single religious viewpoint.
I think you mean Muslims. There are in fact Muslims in positions of power or influence in this country, and I assume that their private moral framework also informs things like their voting decisions, just as Catholics are mandated to consider how our moral understanding impacts our voting decisions, per the Church document on Faithful Citizenship.
So far there has been no evidence that these Muslims have a “religious” agenda per se, any more than Catholic officials have a “religious” agenda for the country. Both groups, and individuals from both groups, should be legitimately concerned with the protection of their consititutional right to speak out on moral matters, despite their religious allegiance, just like citizens with no religion are equally allowed, under our constitution.
Yes, it was I who mentioned the competing moralities specifically.
But you’re wrong: morality is not “only the result of religious belief.” There are many agnostics, atheists, and unaffiliated believers who have a strong moral sense.By the way, back to Muslims: You may be interested that in my region, which has a significant population of Muslims, they were the ones who became so disgusted with the oversexualized culture of the public schools, that they began one of their own charter (public) schools to protect their children from the immorality of the wider culture. They were tired of the suggestive clothing, the filthy language, the music, and the unsupervised relationships on public school grounds, as well as some of the curriculum therein, which mandated early sex education and contraception education – and the free availability of contraception without parental notification. Thus, these parents exercised their consitutional right to remove their children from such influences and to found their own school which reflected values that corresponded to their religious viewpoint, but which did not teach religiion per se with public funds. That is the kind of freedom of religious belief that our Founding Fathers approved of and our revolutionary soldiers died for.
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Precisely.
M
Mudgely
Guest
The Church has the resources to defend what it sees as its rights. If, in fact, the freedom to practice the Catholic religious is infringed upon, then there is recourse in the courts. Freedom of religion has been upheld, even to the extent of allowing the use of illegal drugs in religious ceremonies, and allowing speech which would otherwise be called “hate speech”. The Church should stand up for the rights of Catholics, and do so through the proper channels.
I don’t quite see how paying employment benefits to a legal spouse violates any religious principles. That is simply abiding by employment law. We all pay taxes which go to spending programs that we don’t approve of. That comes with living in a diverse society. Indeed, non-Catholics pay taxes to support Catholic churches, which do not pay taxes. This support comes in the form of fire protection, police protection, roads, access to courts, etc… Why should the Catholic Church not do its part to be a good citizen in employment matters, simply because it disagrees with a law?
I don’t quite see how paying employment benefits to a legal spouse violates any religious principles. That is simply abiding by employment law. We all pay taxes which go to spending programs that we don’t approve of. That comes with living in a diverse society. Indeed, non-Catholics pay taxes to support Catholic churches, which do not pay taxes. This support comes in the form of fire protection, police protection, roads, access to courts, etc… Why should the Catholic Church not do its part to be a good citizen in employment matters, simply because it disagrees with a law?
D
donsnow
Guest
Dear Br. JR, OSF,The problem is that if you don’t comply with the state’s rules, they won’t grant you a license to operate.
I’m sorry to hear about your depression. You know, many years ago, many, I was on an airplane. As we were landing the flight attendant called my name to come up to the front. I did. She told me that when we landed, there would be an ariline employee waiting to greet me.
When we landed, there was the airline employee. I approached her and she told me that I was to call my mother immediately.
When I called my mother she told me that there had been an accident that I needed to return. I took the next flight back. I had no idea of the gravity of the situation. My mom did not say.
When I arrived I called and my mom told me what hospital to go to. By this time, I was shaking. When I arrived at the hospital, a social worker came to greet me and pulled me into a room. She explained that there had been an accident. My wife, three children and dad were in the car. My wife and father had been killed on impact. My daughter and youngest son were OK. My middle son was in critical care.
I remember being too numb to cry. She led me to see my 7-year old son. He was laying there with tubes coming out of every oravice. After a few hours, the doctor said, “I’m sorry. He’s brain dead.” I asked for a second opnion. The second opinion was the same. I could keep him attached to a machine that was breathing for him or turn it off. He was not coming back. His brain was gone.
I brought my other two children to say goodbye to their brother. My duagher was 9 and my son was 4. The injured one was 7. They said goodbye to their brother. I nodded to the doctor and he turned off the machine. I watch quietly. Not single tear. My life was upside down. Thee people in my family were gone. I thought I would never move again.
I went before the Blessed Mother and I remember looking into her face and all I could say was as the thief said to Jesus, “Remember me.” For six months all I could say when I prayed was, “Remember me.”
Fastforward the clock. Today, my 9-year old daugher is a medical doctor. She takes care of children who have no medical insurance, only them. My 4-year old son is now an artist and works as a graphic designer. I’m a Franciscan Brother of Life and I founded a program for poor fathers who are in crisis pregnancies.
As heavy as the depression felt, Mary never forgot me.
When you can’t go to mass, just ask Our Lady to remember you. She will never forget you.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Thank you, so very much. I endure chronic depression, but nothing like what you went through. I’ll remember the prayer. Thank you, again.
God loves you and yours,
Don
D
donsnow
Guest
Good morning, gubemova,
I repeat, “Separation of Church and State” is not, repeat not, in our Constitution. It was formulated by Thomas Jefferson in a private letter. That is to say, it’s an opinion of one of our founding fathers. Nothing more.
God loves you,
Don
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