Good afternoon, NewEnglandPries,
Good afternoon, Mudgely,
As does yours to me. I seriously doubt the President spends much time considering what the teachings of the Catholic Church are.
I disagree that because someone has a different viewpoint that it means s/he is “at war.” George Walker Bush and Ronald Wilson Reagan didn’t agree with the Catholic Church on every issue but that doesn’t mean they were “at war” with the Church.
Merciful God. I’ve lost both parents and a favorite uncle or two (natural causes) and close friends in the Air Force (killed in the line of duty), but certainly nothing like you went through. I’ve suffered through two or three bouts of heavy depression and have my problems in other areas, but again, nothing like what you went through.I’m sorry to hear about your depression. You know, many years ago, many, I was on an airplane. As we were landing the flight attendant called my name to come up to the front. I did. She told me that when we landed, there would be an ariline employee waiting to greet me.
When we landed, there was the airline employee. I approached her and she told me that I was to call my mother immediately.
When I called my mother she told me that there had been an accident that I needed to return. I took the next flight back. I had no idea of the gravity of the situation. My mom did not say.
When I arrived I called and my mom told me what hospital to go to. By this time, I was shaking. When I arrived at the hospital, a social worker came to greet me and pulled me into a room. She explained that there had been an accident. My wife, three children and dad were in the car. My wife and father had been killed on impact. My daughter and youngest son were OK. My middle son was in critical care.
I remember being too numb to cry. She led me to see my 7-year old son. He was laying there with tubes coming out of every oravice. After a few hours, the doctor said, “I’m sorry. He’s brain dead.” I asked for a second opnion. The second opinion was the same. I could keep him attached to a machine that was breathing for him or turn it off. He was not coming back. His brain was gone.
I brought my other two children to say goodbye to their brother. My duagher was 9 and my son was 4. The injured one was 7. They said goodbye to their brother. I nodded to the doctor and he turned off the machine. I watch quietly. Not single tear. My life was upside down. Thee people in my family were gone. I thought I would never move again.
I went before the Blessed Mother and I remember looking into her face and all I could say was as the thief said to Jesus, “Remember me.” For six months all I could say when I prayed was, “Remember me.”
Fastforward the clock. Today, my 9-year old daugher is a medical doctor. She takes care of children who have no medical insurance, only them. My 4-year old son is now an artist and works as a graphic designer. I’m a Franciscan Brother of Life and I founded a program for poor fathers who are in crisis pregnancies.
As heavy as the depression felt, Mary never forgot me.
When you can’t go to mass, just ask Our Lady to remember you. She will never forget you.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I quite agree.
Good afternoon, NewEnglandPries,
hi Don - I was just trying to make the point that we all pay legally mandated fees and taxes, for which the money is not always spent as we would prefer. This is the price of living in a diverse society, which also protects our rights as individuals. So, even though, the Church may not give moral recognition to some legal obligations, those obligations exist nonetheless. Think of all the homosexuals who have been paying their share of taxes which have supported the churches who would castigate them, if you want to turn the equation around for a reciprocal view. If the law were to say that benefits due a legal spouse would be paid to all spouses, what harm is there in that? Paying those benefits are not endorsing the morality of the relationships, in my opinion. But rather, it is paying as legally required under employment law. If the Church offers health insurance to spouses, then it would be to all spouses. Perhaps someone can explain to me how paying someone’s insurance premium would be immoral?
Hi, Mudgley,
I think that the hard lesson that many American Catholics are learning and it’s going to get harder is that being Catholic means thinking with the Church, not with the United States. You’re a Catholic who happens to be an American, not the other way around. Your Catholicism drives your worldview, not your patriotism… In fact, your Catholicism should drive your patriotism. How does this work concretely?
although we do owe taxes to the government it is as the bible says…(Luke 20:25) And He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
So did I; served in the Air Force during that mess, and got the medal to prove it.
Absolutely correct.
And absolutely correct again. Well said, sir.
We probably do agree that there can be a sacramental definition of marriage which does not agree with the legal definition, can we not? This still does not answer the question as to what moral harm inheres in paying for someone’s health insurance? One can do that without endorsing the relationship.
Once again, the need to a better healthcare system which does not rely on one’s employer, or one’s ability to pay, becomes apparent. I don’t quite understand how paying an insurance premium legitimizes a relationship, but I accept that this is an issue which people have very strong feelings, beliefs, and opinions about.We need good courses in philosophy for all Catholics and no one should be allowed to be confirmed until they have completed such courses. Of course that would push Confirmation back until you’re about 20+, but at least Catholics would understand the systems and methods that the Church uses to judge a moral issue.
If we look at this whole issue about same-sex married couples, the problem is that such a marriage is not possible, even if the state says so. Such a marriage violates the laws of nature, regardless of how much we love the other person and how strongly we feel for the other person. We have to find another way of loving that person, which does not include sleeping together. There is no law against love.
If you’re the employer and you’re paying benefits to your employees and their spouses, it means that the spouse is of the opposite sex. If you pay these benefits to an employee and his same-sex spouse, you’re acknowledging that they are spouses, because those benefits were designed to provide for employees and spouses.
In some places , religious institutions have opted to provide benefits only for the employee. As long as there is no law that requires them to provide benefits for spouses, it works, but it doesn’t work. There are employees who have spouses and children and they cannot afford to purchase insurance on their own. It keeps the Church out of the business of providing insurance for same sex spouses, but it also deprives validly married spouses and their children.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I made this point on the ‘Save the Altar Girls’ thread in the Back Fence forum right after your last post there.
Not “of course” – if Catholic schooling would pick up the slack on that, and Catholic schooling were to be expanded, and/or CCD frequency would be much greater (for example, more intense during summers). My first 2 years of formal schooling were in Catholic schools; then later I attended public schools until late in high school. But my religious intellectual training, even before attending a Jesuit-linked high school, was far superior to what Catholic public school students receive in their parishes today.
Good evening, Wolseley,So did I; served in the Air Force during that mess, and got the medal to prove it.
http://www.brianprucey.com/Cold War Medal1.JPG
I see that you served also, Don; thank you for your service, from one old vet to another.
Absolutely correct.
And absolutely correct again. Well said, sir.
I believe that the impetus to gay marriage originates in the women’s rights movement which equated freedom from the restrictions of procreative sex to allow them freedom of choice in their lives and relationships. The desire to eliminate gender distinction in marriage has led in fact to the elimination of gender distinction in marriage under the law, and also to the irrelevance of procreation to the meaning of marriage under the law. If there are no legal gender distinctions in marriage, then there is no bar to gay marriage.I think that the hard lesson that many American Catholics are learning and it’s going to get harder is that being Catholic means thinking with the Church, not with the United States. You’re a Catholic who happens to be an American, not the other way around. Your Catholicism drives your worldview, not your patriotism… In fact, your Catholicism should drive your patriotism. How does this work concretely?
It means that despite the beautiful rhetoric about America being a nation of diversity, there is a limit to tolerance. One may never tolerate immoral laws in the name of diversity. Diversity is not a goal in life, fidelity is. We have a moral duty to be faithful.
In this case, if the State says that Catholic institutions have to provide health insurance for contraception, abortion and same-sex couples, the State is imposing a law that it has no right to impose. The purpose of law is to protect citizens, not to force its citizens to violate natural law.
If we examine the history of the United States, we find that religion actually carved the shape of each state. That’s how important religion has been to the United States. The fundamental value that drove the colonists to expand to found many new colonies beyond Massachusetts and Virginia was freedom of the Church from the State, not the other way around.
The church was always allowed to influence the state, but the state had no right over the church. It was the Quakers who shaped the Constitution of the United States. It was also the Quakers and Catholics who opened the door to Jewish immigrants to Maryland and Pennsylvania, by making it a state law that protected the Jews from discrimination. It was the Catholics who colonized and gave the first code of law the Southwestern States.
Citizens have always dictated to the State from their religious worldview, not the state to the citizens from its secular worldview. This secular worldview attempts to legalize what is contrary to natural law and to punish those who do not subscribe to it. This would have horrified the founders of this country and for good reason, natural law is the guiding principle of all law. If you ignore it, you set the state for chaos.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Hi, Mudgely,