Are Mormons Protestant or their own thing?

[Julie4]

Believing in polytheism is not a truth, as it is not - in any way – Christianity.

Honestly, I am not trying to persuade you to give up your religion. The question in the forum had to do with whether or not Mormonism is Christianity. I believe it is not. But you are certainly welcome to your own position. It is always a good thing to examine our faith.

 

[RuthAnne]

The truth…I thought that was the ultimate goal of all debates! The rest is…

It is not their goal. Their goal is to get you to convert. I’ve heard with my own ears, lies from their prophets Gordon Hinckley, Jeffrey Holland and Dallin Oaks, to mention a few. It’s called lying for the Lord and it’s a real thing in the Mormon church.

And then there was this guy Joseph Smith.

Truth is NOT the goal.

 

[Julie4]

My responses were intended for the person defending Mormanism. I keep finding my responses in some sub-thread, not going to the person I intend them to go to… I get really confused with where to enter my responses. Sorry!

 

[Julie4]

There are all kinds of people in just about every faith. The LDS families look to me from the outside like good people. I was the secretary to a Mormon Bishop attorney and his son. They were wonderful, kind people I haven’t been exposed to any other type of person who was a Mormon. But I do concede to your point.

 

[Legend]

I know. It’s our goal, though, and, in truth, that of any rational person, without one. They have one, possibly two…what you said, and, if that fails, making us look stupid or irrational.

I’ve heard of this ‘lying for the Lord’…there’s a lot of it on YouTube. A couple of years back, the idea of ‘answering the question that should have been asked’ was being promoted. One of their guys…I think his name was Millett…gave the example of this question , and the ‘right’ way to answer it…instead of giving a straight answer, this Mr. Millet said, he would answer the question that should have been asked. He would say 'that’s an interesting question and then go on to tell the story of Joseph Smith going out to pray in the wilderness, and coming face-to-face with God the father and Jesus. And being told not to join any present church, etc. In short, lying!

Yes, he’d have the chance of making a convert with that! But, people were already learning from the LDS church’s biggest enemy-the internet. I’ve seen them deny it, even here, but I’m sure the ‘prophets’ from the early days of the internet were discouraging it. The internet does seem to have a way of getting at the truth!

Thanks for answering. God Bless!

 

[RuthAnne]

I’ve seen that Robert Millet video that you were talking about. I think he was indoctrinating a group of college kids in that video. Instead of answering the question that should have been asked, why not just be honest and answer the question that was actually asked, unless the truth is something to be ashamed of?

I have seen, but can’t remember where, where one of their leaders warned the members not to use the internet as a source of information about the church. Right out of the playbook for cults. The BITE model includes Information control. Mormons are afraid of the internet, not just because of the lies there, but because of the many truths. And like they say, not all truths are useful!

 

[Legend]

In case you can’t find it, or someone else wants to see it:

The Millet quote! Posted, admittedly, by a critic…but it’s there, as he said it. The greatest question for religious scholars today…was Joseph Smith called of God?

It’s been on and off YouTube a few times, as the LDS church has complained. I wonder if any of the ‘evil internet’ quotes remain!

 

[rIz0]

Becoming Gods? - General Discussions - Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board

Seems like many of your friends disagree with you. They’re not to certain there is anything speculative about it.

Also, for the third time… I’d be nice if you answered my questions.

 

[gazelam]

All you have done is shown what is minimally required for a testimony to be minimally credible.

By who’s standard?

As far as evidence, something that indicates that we ought to believe this is the case without a need to verify it via confirmation from the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 12:3 And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit.

By your logic any person who has a genuine feeling in their hearts and believes that they are guided by the spirit is correct. Algorithmically, this is a recipe for disaster.

What do you make of Catholic Bishop Robert Barron’s comments regarding the Holy Spirit and feeling?

In his Video “How to Discern the Spirits” at the 19:20 mark (found at

), Robert Barron has the following exchange with the host (Brandon Vogt):

Vogt : I mentioned at the outset this confusion between spiritual consolation and desolation and feelings, that alot of people just reduce the former to the latter. How do feelings fit into this whole thing? I know that colloquially we’ve been using the language of I feel this or I feel that or you feel God doing this. But how do your feelings relate all this?

Barron: They’re part of it. You know, God made us body and soul. He gave us minds, He gave us bodies. He gave us passions. He gave us feelings. Good. So they can become vehicles of His presence and His communication. As you suggest correctly, don’t reduce it to that, as though I’m just kind of reading it at the purely emotional level. At the same time don’t reject it or denigrate it. God can indeed speak through our feelings.

 

[gazelam]

Mormons don’t believe in, or don’t worship, the creator God, the source of all things.

Not true.

They believe in a multiplicity of God’s!

True, something plainly taught in the Bible. See John 17:22 for starters.

That a Mormon man, who has lived a good life, becomes a god, with worshippers, upon his death…

I’ve never heard the “worshippers upon his death” thing. Please provide a legitimate source.

Most believe that he took his wife, or wives, to his own planet…and gets to populate this world, by their children, conceived thru ‘celestial sex’ are sent to a world, given bodies of flesh and bone, and are expected to populate said world.

Better said we do believe there is a Heavenly Mother and be do believe there is some sort of divine procreation of spirits that occurs. The rest is speculation.

No mention is made of the original God…the first creator, who set things in motion. One is only expected to worship and obey his immediate superior.

This is straight out of 1 Corinthians 8:5,6:

For although there be that are called gods, either in heaven or on earth (for there be gods many and lords many): Yet to us there is but one God, the Father

Mormon doctrine is now rare in the Book of Mormon.

Please share teaching from the Book of Mormon that are rejected by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[gazelam]

No deflection in the least. I explained my understanding and then asked to a Catholic how similar verbiage in the CCC might apply in this case.

 

[rIz0]

Using the verses you supplied…I used your standard. Do any of those verses explicitly say what you are prescribing they do? They don’t, in fact, they don’t even implicitly establish what you think they do… so again, all you have done is shown what is minimally required for a testimony to be minimally valid. Which by the way is common sense. You have not substantiated the claim that God defines truth when two or more witnesses testify to an event happening.

Also, I noticed how you conveniently avoided the fact that you added criteria to your original formula and avoided answering directly how the Holy Ghost confirmed to you (personally) how Joseph’s testimony was valid. I’d really love to know what that conversation between you two was like. I have a hunch it was less of a conversation and more of a feeling though.

How is Corinthians 12:3 evidence that Joseph’s testimony ought to be trusted? An argument is defeated the minute it is self-referential (circular). You know…the book of mormon is true because it says so and if you pray about you will know this (circular). Your attempt to garner a foot hold for your position that Joseph’s testimony is valid… is self-referential. It does not hold, can not be substantiated, ergo we should not incorporate it into our system of beliefs. How?

You: Joseph’s testimony is valid (as confirmed by the spirit)
Me: Why?
You: When two or more witnesses attest to an event happening it is true if confirmed by the spirit.
Me: Why?
You: The spirit confirmed this in me.

One of the hallmarks of a conscientious person, a deliberate thinker, and honest thinker, is establishing at what point you would give up holding your beliefs. Asking yourself the question: What would it take for me to come to hold a position contrary to the one I currently hold. This is why arguing with Mormons is very frustrating. They have never contemplated the question. So I implore you, at what point would you give up holding the beliefs that you hold. What would it require for you to conclude that Joseph made the whole thing up. I’ll give you a hint in case this has been hard to follow… your answer ought not be: When the spirit tells me it is not true.

My formal training is in Philosophy, as such I tend to take these knowledge claims pretty seriously. It is evident you do not. I ask that you read the following:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/knowledge-analysis/

 

[q54332]

I doesn’t assume I don’t even believe that, protestants are too unorganized to monolithically morph together over time lol

 

[Horton]

No deflection in the least. I explained my understanding and then asked to a Catholic how similar verbiage in the CCC might apply in this case.

Which is your standard deflection quote. The topic is not about the CCC of the Catholic Church, it is about the status of the LDS. Besides you have asked this question so many times and it has been answered so many times it is disingenuous.

 

[Horton]

True, something plainly taught in the Bible. See John 17:22 for starters.

But…this is not what is taught in the bible. This is where you get into trouble every single time you use biblical scripture to prove something. All of John 17 is one single prayer from Jesus to God the Father prior to going out where he will be arrested. You have to take the part in context with the whole and know who is speaking to who to know what is meant in any part of the bible.

 

[JonNC]

I doesn’t assume I don’t even believe that, protestants are too unorganized to monolithically morph together over time lol

Even this comment starts with the false premise. To call Protestants “unorganized” assumes they should be organized.

 

[gazelam]

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...ow-about-mormons-when-they-knock-at-the-door/

Above are some Morman teachings.

Maybe you should show this to your bishop and ask him if it is true.

Well, let’s see how much help I need from my Bishop.

From the 8 beliefs (it’s very disappointing to see the same things repeated in the 8 points)…

1. Apostasy and Restoration - If the Mormon Church were truly a “restored church,” however, one would expect to find first-century historical evidence for Mormon doctrines like the plurality of gods and God the Father having once been a man. Such evidence is completely lacking.

Psalms136:2 refers to Christ as the God of gods - Praise the God of gods; for his mercy endures forever;

Mark 12:27 He is not God of the dead but of the living.

Conclusion: Christ is the God of other living gods

Jesus referred to His Father as a man in John 8:17, 18.

Even in your law it is written that the testimony of two men can be verified. I testify on my behalf and so does the Father who sent me.

First point refuted - all from the first century!

1. God - God is not and has never been a man. (See point #1) He is a spirit.

John 4:24 God is Spirit. This verse does not describe God as an immaterial Being. Let’s look at other verse where a being is described as spirit.

John 3:6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.

Those converted disciples are referred to as spirit here. They have bodies of flesh and bone.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being,” the last Adam [Christ] a life-giving spirit.

Here the resurrected Christ who has a body of flesh and bone is referred to as spirit. So, from John 3:6 and 1 Cor 15:45, we can deduce that John 4:24 means that God also has a body of flesh and bone.

1. Polytheism (a repeat of #1 above)
2. Exaltation of Humans - Mormons believe that humans [can become like God]

Romans 8:16, 17 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

Christ became exalted and the righteous will inherit everything Christ did so they’ll become like God as Christ did.

5 Jesus Christ - Jesus Christ was the firstborn spirit-child of the heavenly Father and a heavenly Mother.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Christ obviously wasn’t the first born in mortality.

 

[gazelam]

1. Three Kingdoms [of Heaven] - But the Bible teaches that people have just two possibilities for their eternal futures

1 Corinthians 15:40-42 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead .

Clement of Alexandria spoke of the three heavens and suggested that whoever attains the highest degree becomes like God:
Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed . . . . These chosen abodes, which are three , are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel–the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to “a perfect man,” according to the image of the Lord . . . . To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught. ( Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6:14, in ANF 2:506 .)

1. Sin and Atonement - They think that Christ’s atonement secures immortality for virtually all people, whether they repent and believe or not.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life

The Bible teaches plainly that all will be resurrected because of Christ. Don’t Catholics believe this also?!?!

1. Salvation (This topic essentially rehashed #6 & #7 above.)

 

[gazelam]

gazelam:

Nothing in this quote contradicts anything I said. This quote refers to jurisdiction over other worlds, which is different from owning a world or planet.

Two thoughts/quotes come to mind when I read this:

Your prophet Marvin J. Ashton said, “A lie is any communication given to another with the intent to deceive.”

I respectfully disagree that ownership and jurisdiction are the same thing. But please keep posting those quotes from Latter-day Saint Apostles!!

 

[Apache78]

Psalms136:2 refers to Christ as the God of gods - Praise the God of gods; for his mercy endures forever;

Mark 12:27 He is not God of the dead but of the living.

Conclusion: Christ is the God of other living gods

Do you not understand when this was written? The Jewish people were the only ones that believed in 1 God. The other people of the that time believed in many gods. The author is simply saying that Christ is the only God. He is above all other man made gods.
And where do you get that Christ is God of other living gods from "He is God of the not the dead, but living?