Are Some People Afraid Of The Latin Mass?

[Lujack]

I think you have it completely backwards.

At the New Mass I most frequently attend, the priest goes out of his way to entertain the audience, cracking jokes and prancing around the sanctuary like it’s his little stage. There’s an endless flow of extras moving in and out of the sanctuary - EMHCs, lay readers, altar girls, and random people at the offertory. The whole thing comes across as a big theatre production, completely divorced from the spirit of the liturgy, without any sense of the majesty of God and the mystery of the Eucharist.

The Traditional Latin Mass is the exact opposite. The personality of the priest diminishes to make room for the action of Christ. The prayers are humbly and silently made. The sacrifice is given due reverence. Instead of being about entertaining the people, it’s about giving glory to God.

No offense, but just because you attend a bad OF Mass doesn’t mean the OF Mass is bad. I’ve been a Catholic all my life, in three parishes, and every pastor I’ve ever had has been orthodox. Mass has always been serious and reverent, and I’ve never seen more than two EMHC’s at a given Mass.

If I was to cite a bully of a priest who only said the EF, you’d rightly say that you can’t judge the entire form of the Mass on one priest, and I’m going to argue that you can’t just dismiss the OF based on reports like that.

Naturally the Masses with abuses get all the attention; who goes on a message board and posts that “Mass today was good. Nothing unusual happened. All quiet on the parish front.”?

 

[Dauphin]

No offense, but just because you attend a bad OF Mass doesn’t mean the OF Mass is bad. I’ve been a Catholic all my life, in three parishes, and every pastor I’ve ever had has been orthodox. Mass has always been serious and reverent, and I’ve never seen more than two EMHC’s at a given Mass.

If I was to cite a bully of a priest who only said the EF, you’d rightly say that you can’t judge the entire form of the Mass on one priest, and I’m going to argue that you can’t just dismiss the OF based on reports like that.

Naturally the Masses with abuses get all the attention; who goes on a message board and posts that “Mass today was good. Nothing unusual happened. All quiet on the parish front.”?

In this part of the world, there’s nothing atypical about the Mass I described. Any Canadian Catholic can readily attest that the liturgy resembles a banal theatre production with an endless cast of extras.

From what I’ve heard on these forums, the Americans seem to have it quite the same.

 

[bkovacs]

I think you have it completely backwards.

At the New Mass I most frequently attend, the priest goes out of his way to entertain the audience, cracking jokes and prancing around the sanctuary like it’s his little stage. There’s an endless flow of extras moving in and out of the sanctuary - EMHCs, lay readers, altar girls, and random people at the offertory. The whole thing comes across as a big theatre production, completely divorced from the spirit of the liturgy, without any sense of the majesty of God and the mystery of the Eucharist.

The Traditional Latin Mass is the exact opposite. The personality of the priest diminishes to make room for the action of Christ. The prayers are humbly and silently made. The sacrifice is given due reverence. Instead of being about entertaining the people, it’s about giving glory to God.

I couldn’t agree more!. Same thing goes on in my local catholic parishes.

 

[bkovacs]

In this part of the world, there’s nothing atypical about the Mass I described. Any Canadian Catholic can readily attest that the liturgy resembles a banal theatre production with an endless cast of extras.

From what I’ve heard on these forums, the Americans seem to have it quite the same.

And many Roman Catholics today, especially converts, know nothing of the traditional Catholic Church. Just what the church has been like in the seventies and eighties. Hopefully that will change.

 

[I_Believe]

Uh, to the posters on this thread who have described the Gregorian Rite as “theatrical”, frankly, you make me sick.

I’d bet the lot of you have not attended a total of 5 TLM’s in your life. Collectively. You don’t have a clue.

There should be a thread titled : Are some catholics afraid of Catholicism ?

Babel on jaded ones, babel on.

 

[I_Believe]

I think you have it completely backwards.

At the New Mass I most frequently attend, the priest goes out of his way to entertain the audience, cracking jokes and prancing around the sanctuary like it’s his little stage. There’s an endless flow of extras moving in and out of the sanctuary - EMHCs, lay readers, altar girls, and random people at the offertory. The whole thing comes across as a big theatre production, completely divorced from the spirit of the liturgy, without any sense of the majesty of God and the mystery of the Eucharist.

The Traditional Latin Mass is the exact opposite. The personality of the priest diminishes to make room for the action of Christ. The prayers are humbly and silently made. The sacrifice is given due reverence. Instead of being about entertaining the people, it’s about giving glory to God.

And many Roman Catholics today, especially converts, know nothing of the traditional Catholic Church. Just what the church has been like in the seventies and eighties. Hopefully that will change.

Bingo. Both spot on.

 

[I_Believe]

Uh, to the posters on this thread who have described the Gregorian Rite as “theatrical”, frankly, you make me sick.

I’d bet the lot of you have not attended a total of 5 TLM’s in your life. Collectively. You don’t have a clue.

There should be a thread titled : Are some catholics afraid of Catholicism ?

Babel on jaded ones, babel on.

 

[maurin]

Uh, to the posters on this thread who have described the Gregorian Rite as “theatrical”, frankly, you make me sick.

I’d bet the lot of you have not attended a total of 5 TLM’s in your life. Collectively. You don’t have a clue.

There should be a thread titled : Are some catholics afraid of Catholicism ?

Babel on jaded ones, babel on.

y’know, I’ve followed but not posted on this thread exactly for the same reason you cited in your first paragraph.

I don’t think that some Catholics aree afraid of Catholicism. I think it is pretty clear that most Catholics don’t have any idea exactly what Catholicism is.

It certainly is not this cult of man that is celebrated in many Parishes.

Yeah, I’d like to teach the world to sing…

 

[Lujack]

In this part of the world, there’s nothing atypical about the Mass I described. Any Canadian Catholic can readily attest that the liturgy resembles a banal theatre production with an endless cast of extras.

From what I’ve heard on these forums, the Americans seem to have it quite the same.

I live in America, too, and I’ve been to a grand total of one OF Mass that has been done badly. Regardless, the solution to bad OF Masses is not to abandon the OF Mass (because than you’ll just wind up with bad Tridentine Masses), but to crack down and conduct the OF correctly.

 

[Cat]

Uh, to the posters on this thread who have described the Gregorian Rite as “theatrical”, frankly, you make me sick.

I’d bet the lot of you have not attended a total of 5 TLM’s in your life. Collectively. You don’t have a clue.

There should be a thread titled : Are some catholics afraid of Catholicism ?

Babel on jaded ones, babel on.

I_Believe, “You make me sick” is a little harsh, don’t you think? Ouch.

We’re only stating our perception of the TLM, and we’re not saying that the Holy Mass IS theater, just that it looks like theater.

It has all the trappings of theater. Highly-choreographed movements, lavish costumes, a script that must be strictly adhered to, special music that is sung by the “professionals” rather than the spectators and that is not sung anywhere else, a elaborate set, lighting, a cast of characters, a definite separation between what is happening on the “stage” and the "audience, etc.

Yes, indeed, we realize that it is definitely not theater. It is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. we do not mean to insult it by comparing it to theater.

But for some of us, it looks like theater. We can’t help it if it looks like theater to us. It does.

 

[Sarabande]

I live in America, too, and I’ve been to a grand total of one OF Mass that has been done badly. Regardless, the solution to bad OF Masses is not to abandon the OF Mass (because than you’ll just wind up with bad Tridentine Masses), but to crack down and conduct the OF correctly.

Yes, that is true, because I think that those very bad habits will just makes its way into the TLM as well since it will be done by a larger number of people. A “crack down” on the OF would be important, especially since both the OF and EF are supposed to be accepted.

As a musician, I’ve had the opportunity to attend mass as a musician at many different parishes and have seen some really irreverent, bad, and sometimes laughable OF masses. I’ve found it also depends on the diocese. One diocese might be totally orthodox and the majority of parishes are pretty good to rather excellent, with a few bad seeds. Then the diocese next door, you might have a heck of a time freelancing at least at one parish that will have a reverent mass which will not leave you either clutching your stomach from the pain it gives you from seeing/hearing some of the things or shaking your head in disbelief.

All that said, I think there should be a way to reintroduce the Latin Mass to Catholics so that they do not attribute the bad thoughts that many (like or not) do have when it comes to hearing anything that appears to be “stepping back”. That isn’t the case, but there are still groups of Catholics who feel that way and in a way subconciously feel threatened by it because of a fear that it could bring back bad memories/thoughts or materialize preconceived notions of a mass in Latin.

 

[Sarabande]

I
Yes, indeed, we realize that it is definitely not theater. It is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. we do not mean to insult it by comparing it to theater.

But for some of us, it looks like theater. We can’t help it if it looks like theater to us. It does.

That said, the same legitimate argument could be made and has been made that regular OF masses look like theater productions or rock/folk concerts. The OF masses also has a “script” as you call it, it can have beautiful, “lavish costumes” (vestments), there will often times be newer music that is difficult to sing for the regular person (I’ve heard much sacred music performed in outside venues), there are still set differences between the roles of everyone in the sanctuary and in the pews. So, I don’t really buy it.

Either way, it can be insulting to either the OF or EF when people hear that. Although it is a legitimate and valid feeling, it does demean and condescend towards the other.

I understand if people who are not used to those kinds of masses (TLM high mass or even an OF mass that incorporate similar things) would feel that way. Most are not used to seeing something so beautifully done in a mass setting - that is something people today would think is only done in a concert or theatrical setting. But we have to remember the highest use of sacred art from the churches, to the vestments, to the artwork and mason work on the walls and to the music used to start in the Church.

 

[maurin]

I_Believe, “You make me sick” is a little harsh, don’t you think? Ouch.

We’re only stating our perception of the TLM, and we’re not saying that the Holy Mass IS theater, just that it looks like theater.

It has all the trappings of theater. Highly-choreographed movements, lavish costumes, a script that must be strictly adhered to, special music that is sung by the “professionals” rather than the spectators and that is not sung anywhere else, a elaborate set, lighting, a cast of characters, a definite separation between what is happening on the “stage” and the "audience, etc.

Yes, indeed, we realize that it is definitely not theater. It is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. we do not mean to insult it by comparing it to theater.

But for some of us, it looks like theater. We can’t help it if it looks like theater to us. It does.

Cat,

allow me to be clear: you are a beautiful child of God made in His image and likeness. You possess a dignity, by virtue of your Baptism, and the reception of His Sacraments that will shine on forever, per saecula saeculorum.

this particular post of yours, however, made me sick.

 

[I_Believe]

I_Believe, “You make me sick” is a little harsh, don’t you think? Ouch.

We’re only stating our perception of the TLM, and we’re not saying that the Holy Mass IS theater, just that it looks like theater.

It has all the trappings of theater. Highly-choreographed movements, lavish costumes, a script that must be strictly adhered to, special music that is sung by the “professionals” rather than the spectators and that is not sung anywhere else, a elaborate set, lighting, a cast of characters, a definite separation between what is happening on the “stage” and the "audience, etc.

Yes, indeed, we realize that it is definitely not theater. It is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. we do not mean to insult it by comparing it to theater.

But for some of us, it looks like theater. We can’t help it if it looks like theater to us. It does.

Cat, I don’t know where to start. How many Gregorian Rite’s have you attended ?

 

[I_Believe]

y’know, I’ve followed but not posted on this thread exactly for the same reason you cited in your first paragraph.

You too huh ?

I don’t think that some Catholics aree afraid of Catholicism. I think it is pretty clear that most Catholics don’t have any idea exactly what Catholicism is.

That’s spot on. And you know, it’s not their fault. They only know what they hear from the pulpit. And it’s blatantly obvious traditional catechesis is not what they are getting.

It certainly is not this cult of man that is celebrated in many Parishes.

Yeah, I’d like to teach the world to sing…

Right, and thankfully, we are going to drop the “and also with you”, and change it to “and with your Spirit”.

That always drives me nuts. The priest, Christ personified, says “The Lord be with you”, and we have been instructed to say “and also with YOU”. J+M+J, that is unbelievable. Would we wish the Lord be with Christ ? Christ is Lord !

Ha, but I suppose in the “spirit of VII”, we’ve uncrowned Him, so it’s ok.

Again, thankfully that absurdity is being corrected as the “spirit of VII” has come under review.

 

[I_Believe]

Well, you were online when I replied with a simple question, and then you logged off. Perhaps you didn’t see my reply.

I_Believe, **“You make me sick” is a little harsh, don’t you think? ** Ouch.

No, I don’t think it’s harsh at all when you describe the signature Liturgy of Holy Mother Church as theatrical. Especially knowing you are using the OF as a comparison.

We’re only stating our perception of the TLM, and we’re not saying that the Holy Mass IS theater, just that** it looks like theater.

It has all the trappings of theater. Highly-choreographed movements, lavish costumes, a script that must be strictly adhered to, special music that is sung by the “professionals” rather than the spectators and that is not sung anywhere else, a elaborate set, lighting, a cast of characters, a definite separation between what is happening on the “stage” and the "audience, etc. **

So, rubrics are “movements”, vestments are “costumes”, the Ordinary and it’s rubrics are “script”, Sacred Polyphony and Gregorian Chant are “professional” performance “not sung anywhere else”, the Sanctuary is an “elaborate set”, servers, deacons, and acolytes are “characters”, the Sanctuary and High Altar are a “stage”, and the flock is an “audience”.

I don’t have a clue what you mean by “lighting”. Candles ? Hmm, OF Masses have them.

Yes, indeed, we realize that it is definitely not theater. It is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. we do not mean to insult it by comparing it to theater.

But for some of us, it looks like theater. We can’t help it if it looks like theater to us. It does.

I really don’t see your point. Does your local parish priest follow the Ordinary ? You know, the “script” you speak of ? How about rubrics ? Does he perform the Washing of the Hands in various areas of the Sanctuary at random, or sometimes crawl under the table altar to do the Consecration, just to mix it up so as not to give the impression of a “choreographed” Liturgy ?

How about the servers and EMHC ? Does he use them ? If so, why are they not described as "characters " ? Simply because it happens to be the Liturgy you prefer ?

Is there a maximum level of ornamentation allowed in the Novus Ordo church, after which point it becomes too catholic ?

Cat, I’m not trying to make you look foolish, but that last post of yours wreaks of ignorance.

 

[Frosty]

In this part of the world, there’s nothing atypical about the Mass I described.** Any Canadian Catholic can readily attest that the liturgy resembles a banal theatre production with an endless cast of extras**.

That is an absolutely ridiculous statement! The sheer and utter arrogance of you to dare presume to speak for any Canadian Catholic other than yourself or your likewise narrow-minded pals is appalling. You do not not speak for me or anyone else I know. We do not readily attest that the liturgy celebrated in most of our churches is nothing but a banal theatre production because it is not. Nor is there an endless cast of mindless extras prancing around the sanctuary.
If you find the liturgy that is normally celebrated in your Archdiocese so distasteful to you, why don’t you contact your Archbishop and voice your complaints to him? He isn’t hard to find. You used to use St. Mary’s Cathedral Homepage as part of your signature so I would imagine that you do know where the Cathedral is. The Archbishop lives almost next door. Better yet, go spend some time at St. James Chapel in Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. You might just run into him there.

 

[Extempore]

I managed to read through this thread (all, what, 10 pages of it now?) and found the responses both varied and interesting.

Nevertheless, I am surprised to see that while so many posted the various Novus Ordo Eucharistic Prayers, I did not notice anyone posting any part of the Offertory or Canon from the '62 Missal. For the sake of continuity, I will do that first:

Beginning of the Offertory (taken from:catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Text/Index/4/SubIndex/66/ContentIndex/19/Start/17)

The bells are rung once.

Accept, O Holy father, Almighty and Eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offences, and negligences; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting. Amen.

The Priest makes the Sign of the Cross with the paten and host, and places the host upon the corporal while saying the following prayer. He pours wine and water into the chalice, blessing the water before it is poured, except in Requiem Masses.

O God, + Who in creating man didst exalt his nature very wonderfully and yet more wonderfully didst establish it anew;; by the Mystery signified in the mingling of this water and wine, grant us to have part in the Godhead of Him Who hath deigned to become a partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Thy Son our Lord; Who liveth and reigneth with Thee, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God. World without end. Amen.

The following Preface of the Most Holy Trinity is said on all Sundays except on Feasts that have a proper Preface, and during Lent, Paschaltime and Ascension Time:

It is truly meet and just, right for our salvation, that we should at all times and in all places, give thanks unto Thee, O holy Lord, Father almighty, everlasting God; Who, together with Thine only-begotten Son, and the Holy Ghost, art one God, one Lord: not in the oneness of a single Person, but in the Trinity of one substance. For what we believe by Thy revelation of Thy glory, the same do we believe of Thy Son, the same of the Holy Ghost, without difference or separation. So that in confessing the true and everlasting Godhead, distinction in persons, unity in essence, and equality in majesty may be adored. Which the Angels and Archangels, the Cherubim also and the Seraphim do praise: who cease not daily to cry out, with one voice saying:

The bells are rung three times.
*
Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Hosts. Heaven and earth are full of Thy Glory. Hosanna in the highest. + Blessed is He Who cometh in the Name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.*

And, an excerpt from the beginning of the Canon:

Most merciful Father, we humbly pray and beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ Thy Son, Our Lord, to accept and to bless these + gifts, these + presents, these + holy unspotted Sacrifices, which we offer up to Thee, in the first place, for Thy Holy Catholic Church, that it may please Thee to grant her peace, to preserve, unite, and govern her throughout the world; as also for Thy servant N . . . our Pope, and N . . . our Bishop, and for all orthodox believers and all who profess the Catholic and Apostolic faith

*.

I think it is vitally important to post these words of the Mass because we have gotten so lost in the arguing over Latin v. English that we have forgotten, I think, what the words of the Mass actually are saying, what the priest is saying in the Traditional Mass and that he is not simply speaking Latin gibberish or random phrases. Reading these lines (and those other portions of the Mass of the Faithful) it is hard to conclude as a Catholic that there is absolutely no fundamental difference between the prayers of the Traditional Mass and the prayers of the New Mass.

Yes, the essential words are there, and yes, in both cases the necessary intent is (hopefully) present but the Mass is more than that. It is a profound event that should go beyond mere recitation and extend into the very depth of our souls. These words should begin to affect us beyond mere repetitions. They should mean something to us.

I believe that meaning is lost on argumentation over language. I believe it is lost when we take things away from the Mass, when we water it down or when we make it more “accessible.” The Mass has always been accessible. It has always been right there for us to read, or meditate on, or simply cut and paste it from a webpage as I have done here.

The only thing that has changed is ourselves. We have become lazy and intolerant of things that bore us and are unable to see the beauty that has always been right there in front of us. We have been blinded by our own selfish desire to change the Mass to be more like us, more human, and we have gotten our wish. And, I believe, most ironically, it is not the Holy Mass that will ultimately suffer but instead, it will be us, for we were the ones that made the choice.

 

[Dauphin]

That is an absolutely ridiculous statement! The sheer and utter arrogance of you to dare presume to speak for any Canadian Catholic other than yourself or your likewise narrow-minded pals is appalling. You do not not speak for me or anyone else I know. We do not readily attest that the liturgy celebrated in most of our churches is nothing but a banal theatre production because it is not. Nor is there an endless cast of mindless extras prancing around the sanctuary.
If you find the liturgy that is normally celebrated in your Archdiocese so distasteful to you, why don’t you contact your Archbishop and voice your complaints to him? He isn’t hard to find. You used to use St. Mary’s Cathedral Homepage as part of your signature so I would imagine that you do know where the Cathedral is. The Archbishop lives almost next door. Better yet, go spend some time at St. James Chapel in Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. You might just run into him there.

I wasn’t actually referring to Mass at the Cathedral, which is generally tolerable (although there have been some serious problems with liturgical abuse and unorthodox homilies), but at my home parish.

I wouldn’t bother complaining to the Archbishop. I’m not a “Novus Ordoite” any more. Liturgical insanity can be escaped by a simple trip to the TLM.

The adoration chapel is fantastic, by the way. I’m very blessed to have it so near to me at the University. I usually just drop in from time to time, but I really should set a regular schedule. I read about some “urgent openings” in the bulletin…

 

[Lujack]

I wasn’t actually referring to Mass at the Cathedral, which is generally tolerable (although there have been some serious problems with liturgical abuse and unorthodox homilies), but at my home parish.

I wouldn’t bother complaining to the Archbishop. I’m not a “Novus Ordoite” any more. Liturgical insanity can be escaped by a simple trip to the TLM.

The adoration chapel is fantastic, by the way. I’m very blessed to have it so near to me at the University. I usually just drop in from time to time, but I really should set a regular schedule. I read about some “urgent openings” in the bulletin…

What you’re not grasping, though, is that the EF is not protected from abuse merely by being the EF; the reason you’ll almost never see a liturgical abuse at a Tridentine Mass is that a special effort has to be made to say it and to attend it. A priest would have to be out of his mind to go out of his way to get permission to say a Tridentine Mass, and then say it badly.

The OF does not have that protection; its easy for a lazy priest to change the words around, or drop this or that. Right now, the Tridentine Mass is protected because its not easy to say. If it became the default again, though, you’d see abuses appearing, because people are lazy. They might not be the same kind of abuses, but they’d be abuses nonetheless.

Liturgical abuse is not a problem inherent to the OF, and there is nothing about the EF that protects it from abuses.