Are We a Nation of Liars?

[Erikaspirit16]

Not true. They were seen in public not wearing masks. And they were not giving speeches. Are we a nation of liars?

Sure they were. Post some photos! And not of them alone in their offices with another person. I want to see them maskless in the middle of crowds–and not in Feb.–now.

Maybe you’re thinking of this hoax that’s been making the rounds–
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...-no-masks-predates-u-s-pandemic-idUSKCN24Z1V1

One of my favorite hoaxes was during the Kavanaugh hearings two years ago. The claim was that protesters were gathered in front of his house and were actually defacing it with graffiti. And they had a photo to “prove” it. The only problems were that a) no protesters ever came to his house and b) the house in the photos was a real house all right–but the photo was taken years before, the house was in Hamilton Ontario, and it had nothing whatsoever to do with the hearings.

Did Protesters Vandalize Brett Kavanaugh's House? | Snopes.com

So to answer your question: Are we a nation of liars? No–some of us tell the truth. Others lie. Some lie several times a day. But as I keep saying, there is no excuse nowadays for not knowing the truth–everything is accessible through the internet. It’s your civic duty to know the truth.

 

[po18guy]

This I do not know as I do not watch Fox, or any TV.
Nevertheless, You blame Fox/Trump. That is your right. But, is it well informed?

Whose virus is it?
Do you not find it strange that the novel - never seen before on planet earth - virus just happens to come from the same city in which China’s bat virology laboratory is located?
Why is there even a “bat virology” laboratory? What’s the actual purpose?
Who delayed notifying the world about its escape?
Who laid up medical supplies for its own good while an unaware world was ravaged by the virus?
Thinking militarily (as China has done for 70 years):
Whose ultimate goal has never wavered from world domination?
“IF” you wanted a weapon to disable another nation, while leaving the nation’s infrastructure intact, how would you do it? (remember the neutron bomb?)
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

As to response:
Who closed the US borders?
Who was lambasted for suggesting hydroxychloroquine - later found to be quite effective?
Who launched the light speed development of the vaccines?
Who pointed out the hypocrisy of the Chinese government?
Who reminds of the source of the virus? - it did not fall from the sky!
Who is one of the few on earth confronting China over this and its attempts at economic dominance?

My advice is not to let others program your thoughts. Not to allow them to impose their views upon you - as a free person. I advise you to think critically of all sides of a situation, and not just the side which the media bombards us with. I advise you to read 1984 and Brave New World. Dystopia realized.

We need to think critically.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

My advice is not to let others program your thoughts. Not to allow them to impose their views upon you - as a free person. I advise you to think critically of all sides of a situation, and not just the side which the media bombards us with. I advise you to read 1984 and Brave New World. Dystopia realized.

We need to think critically.

I agree completely–We need to think critically. I won’t respond to your claims or suppositions since it would be a waste of my time. Once again I’ll point out the fallacy of “It’s possible that…” thinking.

But I will counter with a set of my own questions for you:

Have you looked up why there was a lab in Wuhan studying bat viruses?
Do you know who was staffing the lab? Where the funding was coming from?
Do you know the chronology of the virus in China–the day it was determined to be a new virus, the day they realized it was spread through the air, the day they realized how deadly it was, etc. etc.?
Do you know what Taiwan did the day after some private blogger noticed some unusual activity in Wuhan?
Did the virus “escape” or was it simply spread–as respiratory viruses are?
If you want to destroy the world economy, would it make sense to release a virus with unknown effects in your own country and wait to see what would happen?
Closing borders: What do the experts say about the effectiveness of closing borders? Was the US the first to stop flights from China? Did the US stop ALL people who were coming from China?
How many vaccines are in development worldwide? Were they all sponsored by the US? As for the ones that were partially funded by the US–would Pfizer and Moderna have tried to make a vaccine no matter what the US gov. did?
Has hydroxychloroquine been found effective against Covid-19?
Is it logical to blame a certain country or area for a disease that happens to break out there?

I know the answers to all these questions–and a lot more. Do you?

 

[po18guy]

Very snippy!
Are you omniscient?
From whom have you "learned " these “facts”?
Who says they are facts?
Are you a researcher?
Are you a virologist?
Biologist?
Are you a medical professional?
Statistician?

How is slavishly agreeing with you a pursuit of the truth?

What is truth?

Whatever you say?

Really?

 

[puer.dei]

Very snippy!
Are you omniscient?
From whom have you "learned " these “facts”?
Who says they are facts?
Are you a researcher?
Are you a virologist?
Biologist?
Are you a medical professional?
Statistician?

How is slavishly agreeing with you a pursuit of the truth?

What is truth?

Whatever you say?

Really?

It’s fine for you to post your questions, but if someone else responds with corresponding questions, they’re being “snippy?”
Comes across as a bit of a double-standard.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Very snippy!
Are you omniscient?
From whom have you "learned " these “facts”?
Who says they are facts?
Are you a researcher?
Are you a virologist?
Biologist?
Are you a medical professional?
Statistician?

How is slavishly agreeing with you a pursuit of the truth?

What is truth?

Whatever you say?

Snippy? Moi? Non, mon frere…

Omniscient: No. Do I research things? Yes. Until I’m satisfied I understand.
Where do I go for facts? Johns Hopkins, Amer. Medical Assoc., CDC, gov. statistics, medical journals–you know, the places they keep track of facts.
A researcher? Sure. I research a lot of stuff. Actually my title at one of my jobs was “director of research.” So yeah, I was paid to do research. No one pays me now.
A virologist/ biologist/ medical professional? No. But I’ve read books and articles on the subject and watched a lot of documentaries. Because you yourself are not a professional in the field doesn’t absolve you from learning something about a field. I suggest you start with “The Great Influenza” by John Barry. Then watch the 6–part series “Pandemic” on Netflix. Then take one of my questions and dig a little–for example, aren’t you just a teeny bit curious why Taiwan (pop. 24 million) has had just 685 cases and 7 deaths? If the US had done the same thing Taiwan did, the US would have 6,165 cases instead of 13,921,000 cases, and 63 deaths instead of 273,368 (an undercount). I was curious about Taiwan early on–in March. So yes, I researched it. It’s not secret, it’s all public knowledge. There are specific reasons Taiwan (remember–next to China, constant visits back and forth, etc.) has done so well, and a lot of other countries have done equally well–some actually better! No curiosity why? Doesn’t it bother you just a little, tiny bit that the US had MORE new cases yesterday than Japan has had total–from the beginning of the pandemic? Don’t you wonder why that is? As you said, “we need to think critically.” Absolutely true. Go for it.
Statistician? Yeah, I was paid to do statistics, too. So yes.

No one is asking you to slavishly agree with me. Just the opposite. I’m asking you to do some research on your own. There is a whole world of information at your fingertips. Use it.

What is truth? “Truth” in absolute terms is unknowable. If anything it’s a religious or philosophical concept. “Truth” in the common use of the term means something that the vast number of experts in a field think is true. The experts may be wrong at times–for example the sun does not circle the earth. But that’s the beauty of science–it corrects itself! It doesn’t hold political positions, it simply tries to figure out what’s going on.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

part 2–

Now just judging from your list of questions, it seems you think China is behind some vast conspiracy. First, this is the classic “qui bono” of conspiracy theories: “Who benefits?” And therefore whoever benefits must be the culprit. Sorry, that’s nonsense. And it also plays into my two favorites that Conservatives repeat endlessly: “It’s possible that…” Is it possible that China orchestrated the whole thing? Sure. Is it “possible” the the virus was spread by invisible space aliens? Sure. Is there any evidence for either theory? No. And other other favorite of mine is the endlessly repeated “Some people say…” Do some people say China is behind it? Sure. Do “some people” claim they have been abducted by aliens? Actually, a surprisingly large percentage believe that. It doesn’t make it true.

And of course a lot of “true” statements are true, but only in isolation. For example, it’s true that Trump ordered the end of travel from China to the US Jan. 31 and that this came into effect Feb. 2.
But…
What do experts (yes, they know stuff) say about closing borders to stop a pandemic?
Was the “end of travel from China” REALLY the end of travel? Were some people exempt from the ban? And if so, how many arrived after the ban was in place? What precautions were taken to make sure these people were not contagious?
When did other countries end travel from China?
How many other countries ended travel from China?
If people came from China into other countries, what precautions did they take, if any?
In the Jan. 31-Feb. 2 period was the US concerned about the virus coming from Europe? What actions did they take? And again, if people from Europe were allowed into the US, what precautions were taken, if any?

In other words, if you simply say, as Trump does “I stopped travel from China Feb. 2,” that really doesn’t tell you anything. You need to answer all the other questions to decide how effective that was. And yes, I’ve looked up answers to all my questions, and yes, I know the answers. Feel free to do some research.

 

[mcq72]

Whatever you use, the US performance is abysmal…there were more new cases in the White House in 1 day than there were in all of Taiwan in 1 week. There’s a reason for that, and his initials are DJT

That very well could be. Why critics and some Republicans should spend precious money in NY City, even Times Square, and in big neon signs show how many people Trump has killed with Covid .

You know, the city that got bailed out and received nice hospital facilities via ship Comfort and built another hospital at a city center. Cuomo had a nice photo op as ship came into harbor passing statue of liberty. Unfortunately these were underused and Cuomo still sent sick folk back to nursing homes killing 11000 of them (hey saves on portion of Medicaid the state pays out?).

Boths sides can point the finger and have vitriole for each other. I wonder if S. Korea is as divisive ?

So again will agree with you that we can rightly focus on Trump and pount the error finger. And so be it. But just like how we teach our kids of the shamefullness of the white, euro, Christian, male effects on this new continent, the disengenuos part comes from not mentioning the shamefullness of all peoples and cultures in one way or another.

Tell me, do you have such rightful critiques of Cuomo and governors, and of state and local officials and health departments and hospitals also? How about government officials ( who may have lined their pockets) in easing the way for capitalists to put their factories in China, even makers of safety and health items? I mean there is plenty of cheap labor south of the border, but I guess they don’t have the deep pockets to bribe officials and lure companies as a communist China country can. Kudos to you if you rightly judge all.

See how the vitriole goes right back at finger pointers? But yes, the president is our leader, and his branch runs the CDC, and Congress funds it. Yes they could have been better prepared. I am afraid both critics and defenders have their good straight fact pounts, and both can also have bias, slant( you know, never say anything good). Makes me recall where our school district claimed to have reduced administration positions, something taxpayers like to see. Upon further investigation they merely shifted the same work to “teachers”, spending about the same amount of money, taking teachers out of the classroom. All politics is local.

Another tidbit. When 9-11 occurred, where was President Bush, leader of our miltary and covert defenses? Surrounded by kindergarteners, sitting low in chair, reading them a book. We are so narcisistic and weak and dependent on what? I wonder if Washington or Adams or Jefferson needed to do the same. Point being, we are each responsible for our health, and shame on me me if I seek refuge of my families medical woes mostly to a political leader, as if I am helplessly lost otherwise. I know it is a pandemic, but still we are not ignorant historically of those.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Cuomo had a nice photo op as ship came into harbor passing statue of liberty. Unfortunately these were underused and Cuomo still sent sick folk back to nursing homes killing 11000 of them (hey saves on portion of Medicaid the state pays out?).

It’s the classic over/under dilemma. If Cuomo had UNDER estimated the need, a lot more people would have died. He OVER estimated, but that’s only in hindsight, which is 20-20. He made the decision based on the best information he had at the time.

Sending sick people back to nursing homes? You’d better do a bit of research on that one. Never happened.

I wonder if S. Korea is as divisive ?

No, they’re not. Nor was Canada, Australia, NZ, etc. etc. Both the Australian and NZ PMs emphasized that it was a team effort, the “team” being the entire population. They used the word “team.” Can the US say the same? And that, for the record, is one major reason these countries have done well–they were united.

Cuomo and governors, and of state and local officials and health departments and hospitals also?

Cuomo listened to the experts. Health departments and hospitals made decisions based on science, not politics. There may have been an exception here and there, but they deserve praise, not blame.

Have other countries really screwed up badly? Sure. Russia, Brazil, Belarus (whose president suggested they drink vodka and play hockey), India, and even the UK (Boris out partying in pubs the night before a lockdown). But we’re not discussing them. We’re discussing the US.

Yes they could have been better prepared.

You bet. Taiwan had a written plan. So did NZ (it’s online for all to read). So did a lot of other countries. The US did too, but Trump “lost” it when he disbanded the Pandemic task force in the NSC. And yes, a plan was crucial to the success of the successful countries. They didn’t have to sit around and pass executive orders about closing this and opening that. They had thought all these details through years before and put them into their plans. So all they had to do was say “We’re going to stage yellow,” and everyone knew what to do. PPE shortage? Taiwan had a law requiring hospitals to have 90 days’ worth of PPE on hand. Testing? I have a cousin working in Singapore. She gets tested three times–A DAY. Singapore’s had 29 deaths total–mostly migrant workers in hostels. Simple, yes? All very doable. Other countries have done it.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

as always, part 2–

What depresses me is that seemingly intelligent people refuse to do any actual research to find out even the most basic facts. And they continue to propagate total nonsense–“Cuomo still sent sick people back to nursing homes…” without actually reading all of Cuomo’s executive orders (I have) and understanding the pre-existing system (I worked for 10 years in a national capacity dealing with nursing homes). But you don’t have to have first-hand experience. As I keep saying, all the facts are out there. You just have to read them.

we are each responsible for our health, and shame on me me if I seek refuge of my families medical woes mostly to a political leader, as if I am helplessly lost otherwise. I know it is a pandemic, but still we are not ignorant historically of those.

First, we are also all responsible for each other’s health. “Am I my brother’s keeper?” Yes, you are. That’s what a society is. We’re all in this together. Second, read “The Great Influenza” by John Barry about the 1918-21 flu. It will sound very familiar, because 100 years later the US made EXACTLY the same mistakes. Mass meetings during the pandemic? Check. Quack cures? Check. Protests against wearing masks? Check. Protests against shutting down businesses? Check. Disregarding the danger to vulnerable populations? Check. A president who ignored the problem? Check–Wilson was worse than Trump. Wilson never even mentioned the pandemic. Politicians trying to make political points at the expense of public health? Check. 1918 was like a playbook for 2020, not a lesson in what to avoid. Barry’s conclusion? The job of political leaders in a pandemic is to tell the truth. He wrote the book around 1976, so this is not a jab at Trump, it’s simply his conclusion. How well has the US done in that department?

 

[Peeps]

I think that Pres. Trump’s biggest mistake with handling COVID is that he should have handed it off to his VP (Pence) and allowed him to take full charge–and full blame.

Very few politicians know anything about medicine or science. They are easily bedazzled by doctors, scientists, researchers, etc.

In Pres. Trump’s case, he tends to micromanage everything, even when he doesn’t know much about what’s going on. This definitely happened with COVID-19. He would have been best to pass the heavy responsibility for “chairing” the COVID-19 response to his #2 man, and stuck with what he DOES have some knowledge of…economic issues.

Actually, when you think about it, because he is not a career politician, Pres. Trump stumbled through a lot of the processes and personalities of the federal government–he did a pretty good job of picking up knowledge along the way (better than most of us!), but his desire to be in charge of EVERYTHING just didn’t work well with COVID and turned the country against him, even past supporters.

I think that Pres.Elect Joseph Biden is doing what an experienced politician would do–getting other people with more expertise to do the actual work of combatting the pandemic, and he’s limiting himself to being a “good citizen” and wearing the mask, social distancing, and volunteering to receive the vaccine on camera so that everyone will feel safer. A good “PR” approach, and safe for him, as the “blame” for any bungles will fall upon those who were actually in charge, not the POTUS.

I think his approach is rather gloomy compared to Pres. Trump’s optimism–I tend to be more of an optimist, and see no good in constantly reminding everyone of how much danger we’re all in and how people will DIE miserably and alone if we don’t have our masks up and running! That kind of talk that many find realistic and reassuring has the opposite effect on me–I think, “Oh, well, eat drink and be merry, life is short and doom is certain.”

And I accept that others find comfort in the more somber approach that Joseph Biden is taking.

Anyway, I think Pres. Trump’s biggest problem throughout his Administration was his compulsion to be in charge of absolutely everything and not just leave it to his experts and let them take the fall for failures.

 

[1ke]

Pres. Trump’s biggest mistake with handling COVID is that he should have handed it off to his VP (Pence) and allowed him to take full charge–and full blame.

I think Pres. Trump’s biggest problem throughout his Administration was his compulsion to be in charge of absolutely everything and not just leave it to his experts and let them take the fall for failures.

A good “PR” approach, and safe for him, as the “blame” for any bungles will fall upon those who were actually in charge, not the POTUS.

Aha! Now we have it. The secret to good governance is being the kind of person whose top priority is finding people to “take the fall” and to “blame” when things are going poorly.

Got it.

These three quotes actually sum up exactly what is wrong with everything Trump and Trumpism.

 

[Peeps]

Aha! Now we have it. The secret to good governance is being the kind of person whose top priority is finding people to “take the fall” and to “blame” when things are going poorly.

Got it.

These three quotes actually sum up exactly what is wrong with everything Trump and Trumpism.

But…no. You seem to be a little mixed up here.

The problem is that Pres. Trump did NOT delegate responsibilities and look for others to take the fall. He took it all on himself, and ended up getting blamed for everything!

And personally, I think that in all likelihood, had Pres. Trump delegated out the responsibilities, many of those who took on those tasks would have done a super job and would not have had to admit failure or take any “big falls”. I think they would have succeeded.

Delegation isn’t a “passing of the buck” or a “failure to lead.” It’s a tried-and-true leadership skill, and it’s the point of a President’s “Cabinet”–selecting wise men and women to share the burden of leadership.

I wish Pres. Trump had used “delegation” more often. Perhaps it didn’t work out in his personal business pursuits, and so he was wary of using this technique in governing the country. I can identify with his unwillingness to trust others.

 

[1ke]

He took it all on himself,

Where is the ROTFL emoji?

 

[mcq72]

How well has the US done in that department? ( pandemc handling)

Well, early on we had our hands full in prosecuting the president, and obstructing evidence and procees against a presidential candidate. Sooo busy.

Takes two to tango with our divisiveness. Politics is 10% what happens and 90% how you react?

Actually did you here some blood supplies from midwest had covid 19 antibodies, samples collected late last year?

Anyways we did many things right, even the president ( maybe not an Emmy winner like Cuomo) . But again for our political bias we might not be so slanted.

Sending sick people back to nursing homes? You’d better do a bit of research on that one. Never happened

Well it all depends on what you mean by sick. You mean like they remained hospitalized and quarantined for 14 days (even 10 days?) before they were released back to their homes? I don’t think so. Ok, sent them back when they were still contagious?

The study that defended Cuomo on this account has it flaws and some still call for a “mismanagement”. Why else would he change the policy. Or how about this quip by an official defender, like said policy was issued by health department, not the governor, for how could he know all what is going on in his state.

But i will stand down to a middle ground and say maybe only 6000 died due to bad policy ,not 1100. Also difficult to determine whether patients or staff spread it within homes. Like where did staff get it, goin to Walmart?

As to New York city, calls for shutdowns early on were met with resistance from city officials and personalities, like go out, go to a show, go out to dinner etc.

First, we are also all responsible for each other’s health. “Am I my brother’s keeper?” Yes, you are. That’s what a society is.

Agree, American rugged individualism is a bit of a misnomer. Indeed our founders faced hardship, yet they did not go without leaders. Society had to work together in all phases of society much more than now. Survival depended upon it, something we get close to experiencing/needing in this pandemic. The balance is played with, of private, government, in fact all our institutions, and their battle over roles in this synergy.

 

[mcq72]

The US did too, but Trump “lost” it when he disbanded the Pandemic task force in the NSC

"It is this reorganization that critics have misconstrued or intentionally misrepresented. If anything, the combined directorate was stronger because related expertise could be commingled” ( here ).

On March 14, 2020, John Bolton described the changes made to the team as streamlining. He tweeted: “Claims that streamlining NSC structures impaired our nation’s bio defense are false. Global health remained a top NSC priority, and its expert team was critical to effectively handling the 2018-19 Africa Ebola crisis. The angry Left just can’t stop attacking, even in a crisis.” ( here )"

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...-pandemic-response-team-in-2018-idUSKBN21C32M

 

[Erikaspirit16]

The US did too, but Trump “lost” it when he disbanded the Pandemic task force in the NSC

I don’t know if you read the articles you link to, but I hope you read what I write. I didn’t say Trump fired anyone; I said he disbanded the pandemic task force. Which he–presumably his chief of staff wasn’t acting on his own whims–did. To judge the effectiveness of whatever people remained in re-assigned positions, I think it’s fair to look at the results. Which are another 221,883 new cases today, 14.575 million cases total, 221,134 deaths. Almost all unnecessary.

Here’s a quotation from your Reuters article: " In May 2018, the team was disbanded and its head Timothy Ziemer, top White House official in the NSC for leading U.S. response against a pandemic, left the Trump administration, the Washington Post reported. Some members of the global health and security team were merged into other units within the NSC, the article said." Now Bolton might claim he “streamlined” the NSC, but there is no question that the pandemic unit as such disappeared.

Actually did you here some blood supplies from midwest had covid 19 antibodies, samples collected late last year?

Yes. That’s been known for some time now–a few months. But the Red Cross did a recent study (Study Suggests Possible New COVID-19 Timeline in the U.S. ) which showed the virus MAY have been present in the US as early as Dec. 13; but they’re not 100% sure because some of the antibodies may not actually be a reaction to Covid-19, but other corona viruses. This does help explain why NY got slammed so bad early on; also Washington and California. But it certainly doesn’t absolve the government from its mishandling of the situation. Other countries faced the same situation and succeeded.

As for the “lost” pandemic plan, here’s the story: Evidence Shows Obama Team Left A Pandemic ‘Game Plan’ For Trump Administration - KFF Health News

 

[Erikaspirit16]

And part 2–

Well it all depends on what you mean by sick. You mean like they remained hospitalized and quarantined for 14 days (even 10 days?) before they were released back to their homes? I don’t think so. Ok, sent them back when they were still contagious?

OK, here is Cuomo’s March 25 advisory to nursing homes: https://web.archive.org/web/2020040...covid19-_nhadmissionsreadmissions_-032520.pdf

A couple things before I quote from it: 1) No Monday morning quarterbacking–this was March 25. Would Cuomo do the same thing today? Probably not. His main concern was–as stated in the advisory–"the urgent need to expand hospital capacity in NY State…” How do you free up hospital beds? 2) It has been the custom for decades to transfer patients to nursing homes if they no longer need acute care, but they do need to recover. Most hospitals have contracts with local nursing homes to facilitate this. So it was logical to follow past practice on this. The business about “No resident shall be denied re-admission or admission to the NH solely based on a confirmed or suspected diagnosis of Covid-19” is because in the past nursing homes had refused to take residents back after a stay at a hospital. In the case of many, if not most, residents at a nursing home, there is no where else for them to go and no one else to care for them. The alternative would be “granny dumping,” which is, believe it or not, a thing. Hospitals simply dump patients by the side of the road if there is no where for them to go. As for first-time admissions, again, the priority was to clear hospital beds. The general rule about 10 days is that few people are contagious 10 days after their first symptoms. And of course all the people being transferred from hospitals to nursing homes had symptoms–that’s why they were in the hospital!

Unfortunately there is no test so far that can tell where or exactly when a person catches Covid. So saying residents in nursing homes got Covid from patients transferred from hospitals is speculation.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

And part 3–

Now were these “sick” people Cuomo was forcing nursing homes to take? No. They had to be cleared in a two-step process: they had to be certified “medically stable” and this had to be confirmed by individual phone calls. Also, nursing homes were referred in that advisory to the CDC guidelines, and the advisory itself said “As always, standard precautions must be maintained, and environmental cleaning made a priority during this public health emergency.” The legal definition of “medically stable” = “good physical health, with no acute or chronic health problems for which medical treatment beyond routine medical care is required or anticipated.” In other words, they were not supposed to be released if they still had Covid. Beyond this there are also guideline from CMS AND the NY Dept. of Health saying that nursing homes are NOT to accept residents if they are not prepared to care for them properly. So, for example, a nursing home with no isolation wing or means to isolate a resident should NOT have accepted recovered Covid patients. There was also a July study that concluded that infections in nursing homes were due to visitors or staff. And of course if the patients transferred to the nursing homes were medically stable, they could not have transmitted the virus, and there would be a very, very small chance that they would be re-infected.

 

[AlNg]

I know the answers to all these questions

I doubt it.