Are We a Nation of Liars?

[Erikaspirit16]

For some reason this posted twice. Ignore the second below–it’s the same.

So you still don’t answer the.question as to why Democrats dont offer to pay for id for the destitute.

They may. I don’t know. I’m not going to spend my day looking up every state. But feel free if you want to!

have never seen anything but a less than 5 minute wait to vote, since 1972, in ny and california.

But of course those states are run by Democrats. Mine too. I have always voted early (except this year–by mail) and have always just walked in. As you say, less than a 5 minute wait. I can’t remember which states (Georgia?) but some controlled by Republican election officials drastically cut the number of polling places (= long waits) but they did it strategically–long lines in Democratic districts don’t bother them. Long lines in rich suburbs…well, that just doesn’t happen. And we know why.

Why don’t you deplore anything could make fraud easier ( like no id)?

For the same reason I don’t deplore cows jumping over the moon. Voter fraud is a myth. Study after study has shown that. Republicans are simply trying to disenfranchise voters who oppose them.

just not sure it debunks how id would not aid in vote veracity.

Well, if you assume a conspiracy of the scope that would be necessary, forging IDs would be easy as pie. Lots of illegal immigrants already have them. As well as a lot of underage drinkers. So…how hard could it be to get an illegal ID?

One needs to go further and say what the probability could be, like 5%, 10%, 25 %, 40%? Those are reasonable probabilities of a fraudulent vote going thru with no id.

Well no, they’re not. Out of billions of votes case, there are a handful of isolated cases of fraud, usually because someone made a mistake, not because they intentionally voted illegally. So the % of probability is probably in the neighborhood of 0.0000001.

The issue of an ID card is actually a very libertarian issue–the US has no such thing as a “national ID” for a very good reason. It’s a threat to privacy and liberty. Australia feels the same way. So does the UK. Haven’t you watched those nice WW II movies where the bad guys say “Papers, please!” So, as always, we have conservatives

 

[mcq72]

Well no, they’re not. Out of billions of votes case, there are a handful of isolated cases of fraud, usually because someone made a mistake, not because they intentionally voted illegally. So the % of probability is probably in the neighborhood of 0.0000001.

the probability is not of known cases, but a probability of a fraudulent vote getting counted, of falling thru cracks per your well thought scenario. That is the probability of voting in another name , and that person whose named was used does not vote also raising a red flag.

By the way is it an anomaly where a precinct usually records an average spoil rate of mail ins of around 99.1, and then one year 99.99 (never achieved before)?

As to id card you have fair points.

Voter fraud is a myth.

As to your continuance to deny historical fraud, please look at Chicago, New York and Philadelphia 150 year history of voting.

In Georgia two years ago a democrat may have been cheated out of her election bid. She screamed fraud from the rooftops. I heard she was told to keep it cool , paid some money, and said wait for two years down the road for payback ?

Study after study has shown that. Republicans are simply trying to disenfranchise voters who oppose them.

and district attorney after district attorney , even grand jury after grand jury showed Truman Capote to be law abiding, despite them trying to take away his freedom ?

No crime has been committed until a dead body is discovered?

Well, if you assume a conspiracy of the scope that would be necessary, forging IDs would be easy as pie. Lots of illegal immigrants already have them. As well as a lot of underage drinkers. So…how hard could it be to get an illegal ID?

so no id is better? i mean it is known that voting computers are hackable, despite some protections. because they are not fail proof do away with them or any of their security software?

a side note as to voting lines. We had early voting in NY for 7 days. They only had nine locations where i live as compared to several hundred on election day. You could go to any poll place for early voting , but not on election day. The lines were very long in suburbs ( 1-2 hour wait) but in the heart of the city , there was no line where I went…4 people ahead of me…there was another city poll place that did have lines like suburbs. …Our county did cut back on polling places on election day(5%)( population the same or slightly decreased)

 

[po18guy]

Disagreeing viewpoints are not necessarily lies. Apparently, FOX has now caved on principle, so they are being deserted.

Who to demonize now?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

the probability is not of known cases, but a probability of a fraudulent vote getting counted, of falling thru cracks per your well thought scenario. That is the probability of voting in another name , and that person whose named was used does not vote also raising a red flag.

As someone (me) who has studied statistics, figuring the probability of an unknown result if you ignore the known results is simply not something you do. It would make total nonsense of statistics. You are (a la Our Great Leader) just pulling numbers out of thin air. You could say the odds were 50-50, 90-10, or whatever number you want–but you aren’t basing your number on anything but fantasy!

By the way is it an anomaly where a precinct usually records an average spoil rate of mail ins of around 99.1, and then one year 99.99 (never achieved before)?

Not necessarily. This was an election where it was stressed multiple times a day on TV, in papers, on the internet, radio, and probably smoke signals, that you had to follow directions. So should we be surprised that slightly more people followed directions? I’m not.

As to your continuance to deny historical fraud, please look at Chicago, New York and Philadelphia 150 year history of voting.

You haven’t read my posts carefully! I was very careful to write (post #127) “in modern history.” I’m not talking about Tammany Hall in the 19th c. or Texas in the 1930s, or even Chicago in 1960. If you want a precise date, let’s take 1964 on–the last 60 years.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

part 2–

In Georgia two years ago a democrat may have been cheated out of her election bid. She screamed fraud from the rooftops. I heard she was told to keep it cool , paid some money, and said wait for two years down the road for payback ?

I assume you’re talking about Tracy Abrams who ran for governor against the current secretary of state who was in charge of the voting rules and counting the votes! Talk about opportunity to manipulate votes! What he did wasn’t fraud, but it was mass disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of Black voters. She didn’t “scream fraud,” she said, correctly, that the rules had been charged (legally) to put her at a disadvantage. I don’t know anything about her being paid. I do know that she founded an organization to register new voters–which she did. Something like 200,000+ for 2020. Payback.

Truman Capote

?? Al Capone? Again, go back to my comments on levels of proof. It’s not that there was NO evidence that Capone had committed crimes, it was that they couldn’t prove it to a jury. In the case of voter fraud, we’re talking “no evidence.” I suppose someone could come along and with the usual “It’s possible that…” and say “It’s possible that you murdered someone in 1980.” Sure it’s “possible.” But there’s absolutely no evidence. Thus no prosecution or investigation.

voting in NY

That’s NY. I chose Texas at random to see what they had done: Texas closes hundreds of polling sites, making it harder for minorities to vote | US news | The Guardian

Between 2012 and 2020 they closed about 750 polling stations. In three counties they ended up with 1 polling station for >10,000 people. And take a wild guess in what districts they closed polling stations? If you guessed Democratic districts, you win the prize. Legal? Yes. Fair? No.

Or take Georgia. Since 2013–in other words, since the conservatives on the Supreme Court allowed states that had historically discriminated against Black voters to do whatever they wanted–the number of registered voters in Georgia has increased (despite the hundreds of thousands disenfranchised by the Rep. sec. of state) by almost 2 million. And yet the number of polling stations has shrunk–not grown!–by 10%. And, like Texas, guess where they closed those polling places? Yup. “it has primarily caused long lines in nonwhite neighborhoods where voter registration has surged and more residents cast ballots in person on Election Day.” Why Do Nonwhite Georgia Voters Have To Wait In Line For Hours? : NPR

Feel free to check out other states. You’ll find the same story repeated over and over. Is it legal? Yes. Fair? Absolutely not. It’s completely undemocratic. And racist. I could add more adjectives, but I’ll stop there. If you’re not outraged by this provable and public attempt to skew the vote, then there’s no hope for you. But so far you’re only outraged by hypothetical fantasy voter fraud. Please get excited about real facts and real evil.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

part 3–

so no id is better? i mean it is known that voting computers are hackable, despite some protections. because they are not fail proof do away with them or any of their security software?

“No ID” doesn’t mean anyone can just walk in and vote. It means you showed your ID when you registered. And when you vote they ask you your name, address, and match your signature. Different states and countries handle things in different ways. It seems to me that what works best in a certain place is the way to go. The US has gotten along quite nicely without showing IDs–at least in some states, not all.

As a bonus, here is a link to a Brennan Center (NYU) report (2020) that summarized lots of studies about voter fraud and gives links to each. Happy reading!

https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/analysis/Briefing_Memo_Debunking_Voter_Fraud_Myth.pdf

Since you like odds, note that Brennan’s conclusion is that a person is more likely to be hit by lightning than to walk into a polling station and try to cast a fraudulent vote.

 

[mcq72]

As someone (me) who has studied statistics, figuring the probability of an unknown result if you ignore the known results is simply not something you do

Kindly disagree. You used the term " “probable” howbeit vaguely ( as in not probable), did you not in terms of a fraudulent vote slipping through (that real person does not then cast a ballot) ? There is a probability, or statistical factor, of whether or not a registered voter will actually vote in any given election.

Well, if you assume a conspiracy of the scope that would be necessary, forging IDs would be easy as pie.

So it is easy as pie to get a forged id but a undue hardship for some to get a real one. I mean some of those you cited were not necesarily rich or advataged.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Kindly disagree. You used the term " “probable” howbeit vaguely ( as in not probable), did you not in terms of a fraudulent vote slipping through (that real person does not then cast a ballot) ? There is a probability, or statistical factor, of whether or not a registered voter will actually vote in any given election.

The probability a registered voter will actually vote in the next election could be calculated by looking at their past voting history and factoring in things like likelihood of death, sickness, etc.

Unless I’ve misunderstood, what you are suggesting is calculating a probability of an event happening while at the same time ignoring any past history of that event. If so, that can’t be done. If you look at some of the studies in the Brennan article, a lot DO give probabilities, but of course they are basing that on past history.

So it is easy as pie to get a forged id but a undue hardship for some to get a real one. I mean some of those you cited were not necesarily rich or advataged.

I said “if you assume a conspiracy of the scope that would be necessary.” I’m not assuming that individuals would go out and get fake IDs. The omnipotent mastermind behind such a conspiracy would provide the IDs. For a homeless person or a poor person without a car who lives 10 miles from the office where IDs are issued, the barriers are substantial.

Again, I’ll go back to my “Democrats are omnipotent” vs. “Democrats are incompetent” contradiction. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that the Democrats DID orchestrate a complex, super secret voting fraud scheme across multiple states. Why would these “omnipotent Democrats” be foolish enough to lose enough Senate races so that they won’t control the Senate? And so on. If you were writing a novel, the editor would toss that plot line back and tell you to revise it and make it more realistic.

 

[MikeInVA]

Sorry, but I think the term “liar” is way overused. Many of the “lies” that I have seen Trump accused of were in fact statements of opinion. My daughter often says that I am lying when I say that I want to go out to eat at a certain restaurant, but circumstances change and we go somewhere else or eat at home. I didn’t intend to deceive her; I just changed my mind (or had it changed for me).

When a term is overused it loses all significance.

 

[mcq72]

So should we be surprised that slightly more people followed directions? I’m not.

Ok, agree it was stressed after abysmal primary mistakes. Yet some of the anomalies are within “batches”
of mail ins this year.

You haven’t read my posts carefully! I was very careful to write (post #127) “in modern history

Yes my bad.

So our current laws have closed all the loopholes? Was every law and procedure to date followed or remained unchanged this election? Have we eliminated mobs, cartels, gangs, mafia influence, (even existence) in other areas? Like the post asks, our we now not liars , and liar proof ? Did not folks deny any fraud even in old history? Don’t get me wrong, I think we have set up a system that has closed " loopholes". I would disagree however that is is liar proof, mistake proof, never protocols unfollowed proof (I have seen tv clips of two people handling one ballot and just as many or more showing one person per table handling their own stack of ballots).

If you’re not outraged by this provable and public attempt to skew the vote, then there’s no hope for you

No, now you have misread me. I said I delplore such tactics. I also said I wished you would deplore any illegal vote besides saying there is zero, zero evidence, which is far from the truth. (Understand you mean provable evidence).

There is also the thing of avoiding appearance of malfeasance, for that can be just as confidence eroding. Sites keeping some observers at a distance or stories of some being kicked out or covering up of glass or of a total shut down of counts in the wee hours of the morning or residencies mass ordering of ballots in same day, or a pile of ballots having only one vote marked, or video of ballot correction, or a pile of ballots in the mud a few folks coming forward with witness to cheating, or Pelosi, Schumer comments of "can’t leave it in hands of boters, or “everything is on the table” to utiluze, certainly doesn’t help keep the faith either.

[

 

[mcq72]

As a bonus, here is a link to a Brennan Center (NYU) report

I did read this brennan report ( an odd one, like tip toeing to please everyone…first saying voting resources in white/black majority counties equal, then saying black majority counties need more resources than white majority counties.

Waiting to Vote | Brennan Center for Justice

Since you like odds, note that Brennan’s conclusion is that a person is more likely to be hit by lightning than to walk into a polling station and try to cast a fraudulent vote.

Lol, do they debunk dead people voting?

From working the polls for the first time I would say it is totally possible to cast a fraudulent vote. Is it consequential? Probsbly no (unless you win by a hundred votes on local election) . Is it efficient way to cheat, no.

Out of a thousand votes cast at our place I can not verify 100 % honesty or dishonesty in the voter. Do I reasonably think most were honest ? Yes.

We as workers for the most part did comply with checks and balances (we did not always have two at a table). We did not check for accuracy of “machines” other than total count( a thousand voters, a thousand votes recorded). We did not count all paper ballots votes against computer tabulations for any error, on specific races totals.That is certainly a method to verify any voting machine accuracy, and have no idea if such a check occurred say in Philadelphia area or other contested areas.

I will agree that I am, and pray to be, swayable by a multitude of “counselors” and the truth.

 

[mcq72]

And so on. If you were writing a novel, the editor would toss that plot line back and tell you to revise it and make it more realistic.

Understand. But i would also tell you to revise story also if every democrat won by wednesday morning. You have to have plausible deniability.

Furthermore, you save your trick plays in any game for an opportune moment even critical moment ( Schumer…everything is on the table…?).This is definitely a critical moment this Trump thing. And you may have the Senate also. I believe it is close for honest reasons ( Georgia turning into democratic state). Just would like the razor thin margin not to be affected by probable mistakes and manipulation by third party ballot handlers, or one or two polling machines with weird “algorithms”. That is all it might take.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Many of the “lies” that I have seen Trump accused of were in fact statements of opinion.

Well, Trump said (on video) that his father was born in Germany. His father was born in the Bronx. You can’t claim he was ignorant of the facts. He lied. Why? Who knows.

His repeated claims about the economy are also lies. Facts are not opinions. All you have to do is go to government statistics and see that what he said is simply not true. Other statements he has made are true, but with a big asterisk. For example, as the population grows, you would expect the number of people employed would grow. It has. So what? Is that due to Trump’s policies? Of course not.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

So our current laws have closed all the loopholes? Was every law and procedure to date followed or remained unchanged this election? Have we eliminated mobs, cartels, gangs, mafia influence, (even existence) in other areas? Like the post asks, our we now not liars , and liar proof ? Did not folks deny any fraud even in old history? Don’t get me wrong, I think we have set up a system that has closed " loopholes". I would disagree however that is is liar proof, mistake proof, never protocols unfollowed proof (I have seen tv clips of two people handling one ballot and just as many or more showing one person per table handling their own stack of ballots).

We’re going in circles. You are still at the “It’s possible that…” stage. As I said, ANYTHING is “possible.” But we don’t hold investigations or write reports or pass laws because “It’s possible that someone might do some hypothetical thing.” It’s an axiom of historical research, for example, that if you see a law passed in 1424 against crime X, that means that crime X was occurring and they wanted to stop it. People don’t pass laws against hypothetical “possible” crimes.

Do I deplore voter fraud? Of course. It is a problem in the US? No. Again, everything I’ve read or seen about voter fraud is complete hearsay. Or misinterpretation of what they were seeing. Judges agree–even Republican judges appointed by Trump! There is simply no evidence.

Have some people in the past 60 years in the US committed voter fraud? Yes. But the number is insignificant compared to the number of votes cast. And all of these cases it was individuals, not some organization or group orchestrating a fraud. And in a large number of cases it was unintentional.

You really have to stretch if you try to interpret Schumer’s “everything’s on the table” remark to include fraud. If you make that interpretation you could also assume Schumer is going to murder Republican senators, etc. etc. That’s silly. He simply meant that if the Republicans rammed through Barrett’s appointment, which they did, that they would pay a legislative price in the end. Which they will.

And yes, I agree that the appearance of fairness is crucial. Which is why this manufactured “voter fraud” thing is so dangerous to democracy. It makes voters think that their vote doesn’t matter because it won’t be counted fairly, or that it’s futile to vote because everything is orchestrated by some omnipotent conspiracy. Again, EVERY person in charge of voting, Democrat or Republican, who has made a public statement about voting has confirmed the fairness and honesty of the process. Are they all part of the conspiracy? Sorry, it doesn’t make any sense.

 

[MikeInVA]

He lied. Why? Who knows.

Could he have been thinking of where his grandfather was born perhaps? Without the context of your claim, I would err on the charitable side of thinking that he misspoke rather than that he deliberately chose to lie about something that is easily verifiable.

 

[mcq72]

You really have to stretch if you try to interpret Schumer’s “everything’s on the table” remark to include fraud. If you make that interpretation you could also assume Schumer is going to murder Republican senators, etc. etc. That’s silly. He simply meant that if the Republicans rammed through Barrett’s appointment, which they did, that they would pay a legislative price in the end. Which they will.

yes, it could be a stretch but then again…

He also warned Trump that if you mess with the FBI or justice department, watch out they have ways of getting at you. Remember that? Like how dare you try to hold government agencies and personnel to the law., even suggest corruption…watch out. Indeed there is evidence that the deep state exists and justice is two sided ( it is with race, and money, why not politics?). That is OK. I am sure justice will be obstructed and all current Barr turtle speed investigations will be halted with a Biden presidency.

It makes voters think that their vote doesn’t matter because it won’t be counted fairly, or that it’s futile to vote because everything is orchestrated by some omnipotent conspiracy.

you mean like how the dems and Hillary steered the primary last time ? My grandson was a bernie supporter. He was very much disappointed at the tactics. He may get over allegations here of Trump getting ripped off, yet he sees bias by media, by Twitter and facebook and even other republicans. Like you will never have another outsider win. It is a “party” system, and not much difference between the two in some ways ( five richest counties in our country are all Washington surroundings). The deficits go up by all , the handouts increase by all, government at all levels increases. We love it.

Quite possible that half the country feels disenfranchised, still, again, like winner take all.

The pendulum swings, but the center ever shifts left.

 

[mcq72]

As for the “Haven’t you heard Our Great Leader’s speeches” crowd, let me remind you that Trump lied about where his father was born (Trump said Germany; his father was born in the Bronx). No reason to do that…it just comes naturally.

Agree to this human weakness that he exhibits. Should he be like Biden , who also was caught with a few aggrandizing lies ( 3 colleges and top half of his class) and later apologized and said that he was “mad” about something and “had the flu”?

lol, our leaders are something

Or the business about Mexico paying for the wall.

So if a politician proclaims his platform or agenda, and it doesn’t pan out, he is a liar ? I believe he did try to get cooperation from Mexico on the wall. He may have failed yet he has said the new trade deal with Mexico has yielded or will yield a positive cash flow to us. I have not heard that we had a negative flow form the deal.

At any rate some things need to be taken with a grain of salt . It is only affection or lack of that takes the salt away.(His words have been twisted countless times. ). That is politics and we both play it here.

denying his own policy of separating children from their parents at the border.

he said many things about this. His critics, at times, have selective hearing ( like how many times does he have to denounce KKK or others?). I did hear him say that sometimes the parents (or coyotes?) disappear of their own volition. I thought his wife is against such separation and not sure it continues. I heard there are posters all over latin america trying to find parents of some of the kids. And how about the cages, built by and used by Obama, and then we in shock and disgust at such pictures say, look at what trump is doing?

I will rescind these comments if you also criticized obama/biden policy at the border in regards to
their deportations and use of cages, and separating children etc.

Or saying the US case death rate is the best in the world (it’s 109th)

OK. We both took statistics. I believe my course was named “How to Lie with Statistics”. Trump has cited the differing statistic. Why wouldn’t we use the differing numbers to suite our position. That one method of counting is used does not make the other a liar.

Plus Trump has been the most “talkative” accessible president, compared to Biden who hung out at home and faced tough questions once a day before 9 am like , what kind of ice cream do you like. So Trump has said many things. i do not recall him saying we had the best, though he may have once. I do remember him saying it was better than perceived or by one calculating method. But maybe once he said the best ?. ok if you say so, he lied, grossly exaggerated but 8 other times he did not.

 

[mcq72]

And claiming to “drain the swamp” and then appointing lobbyists, millionaires, and corporate CEOs to his cabinet.

so draining the swamp is cabinet people? he has not been allowed to drain swamp due to always being on defensive via 3 year Russian investigation to impeachment ( pretty good resistance). Only at end did Barr begin or pursue draining maneuvers , but being stalled by justice department and deep state ( some bureaucrats hate trump just like you for similar and different reasons). yes , some of His picks were not good. Again, did you cite swampiness to any of Obama’s folk from not squeaky clean chicago ? Here is quote i read about obama and how chicago , like texas (bush) or arkansas (Clinton) ,would not influence D.C.

“DC has its own culture and absorbs other cultures. When people try to behave differently, it bounces off, like Teflon. The Clintons were outcasts for trying to bring their culture to DC.”’

So just try to drain the swamp, you cant. The 5 richest counties in America that surround DC, feeding of our backs , are untouchables. trump was doomed to be hated, even if he was nice and polished like a Romney ( whom democrats tore up also)

by the way the article also says this ,

"The small-scale bribes that older Chicagoans remember from visits to City Hall are a thing of the past but the sharp suits, naked ambition and political trading are much the same. So too is the large-scale corruption that has seen 50 elected officials from Illinois jailed over the past 30 years.

The only economic index that has improved has been corporate profits.

This is false. Did food stamps go up or down in usage ? Did ethnic unemployment go up or down ( last I heard population has a steady growth, so did he break obamas record then, and Biden will break trumps record ? ). Did women employment grow ? Did average household income increase ? Did 401’s increase. Did wages go up ? Price of gas? Energy independence?Come on man.

Again “greatest economy ever” , or “best president ever” have to be taken with grain of salt. it is understood in the things he has done, or things that have happened. In some sense they are generalizations, and some are hell bent to call them lies , which is silly. Now if he says something specific like the best gdp or best trade balance ever, take him to task. It is like me saying I feel good about america like never before and you call me a liar. >

Now you sound like those who deny that what Obama/biden did finally began to positively take affect by the time Trump took office. Why do you deny that Trump took that and pushed it along even further , and maybe faster?

Anyway, i do not like Trumps braggadocios style either and even his tendency before he came to white house to lie. However , i have not lost the ability to discern his words when they are truthful. i have seen all too often malicious hatred and contempt for him taking the worst possible context at every word and action of his.

We are divided because we want to be.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I would err on the charitable side of thinking that he misspoke rather than that he deliberately chose to lie about something that is easily verifiable.

Except that for 6 years he has done that multiple times per day. I think during the campaign it was over 40 lies a day. That’s impressive!

And nope, not a slip of the tongue. Have a look–

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Indeed there is evidence that the deep state exists

Sorry, I haven’t come across it. Feel free to enlighten me with facts and sources.

you mean like how the dems and Hillary steered the primary last time ? My grandson was a bernie supporter. He was very much disappointed at the tactics.

We agree on that one. Except that there was no fraud or voter fraud. But for the DNC to be backing Hillary when they should have been neutral wasn’t right. And the super delegates by their very nature stacked the deck against anyone not in the circle of power. And that’s why I didn’t vote for Hillary. If she had won, it would have been business as usual. She lost, and the super delegates only can vote on a second ballot. And other changes were made.

The pendulum swings, but the center ever shifts left.

We agree again! Don’t you just yearn for the old days of the late 19th c. when there was child labor, almost no unions, no paid vacation, almost no holidays, 12-hour days, and no safety regulations to get in the way of unbridled capitalism? Yes. Definitely a leftward swing! And all the better for it!

Agree to this human weakness that he exhibits. Should he be like Biden , who also was caught with a few aggrandizing lies ( 3 colleges and top half of his class) and later apologized and said that he was “mad” about something and “had the flu”?

Half agree. So far Biden has lied—yes, about his college career and also about being arrested in S.
Africa. But so far he has restricted himself to lying about his past history, not about policies.

I believe he did try to get cooperation from Mexico on the wall.

From the beginning it was clearly ludicrous to think that Mexico was going to pay for the wall. Balance of payments flows do not “pay” for anything. Trump has misinterpreted (being generous here) that for at least four years. And China doesn’t pay for the US tariffs, either. We do. Despite his Wharton degree, he seems to have a completely erroneous idea of how trade works.

And how about the cages, built by and used by Obama, and then we in shock and disgust at such pictures say, look at what trump is doing?

Half agree. Yes, the “cages” were built under Obama. Why? Because large numbers of unaccompanied children were coming across the border in unprecedented numbers. They had to keep them somewhere for up to 72 hours before they could send them off to relatives, volunteers, etc. There was NO policy of separating children from their parents under Obama. There was under Trump–and his lackies have admitted it. It was a tactic to stop immigration by frightening parents. It didn’t work.