Are We a Nation of Liars?

[Erikaspirit16]

part 2–

And yes, under Obama there were a lot of deportations. Obama’s administration targeted two groups: 1) those who had recently crossed the border without authorization (in other words, someone who had been living here for two years didn’t have to worry about a knock on the door) and 2) immigrants with criminal records. In 2016, 85% of the deported people had just crossed the border without authorization. Of the other 15%, 13% had criminal records. That leaves only 2%. And Obama only deported half as many people as Bush did in his 8 years in office. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/obama-record-deportations-deporter-chief-or-not

Which of course brings up what I always find fascinating about conservative positions: contradictions. On the one hand, Democrats are accused of wanting “open borders” (which of course they have never wanted). On the other hand, Democrats are accused of deporting huge numbers of people. Why would they do that if they favor “open borders”? Doesn’t make sense.

Trump has cited the differing statistic. Why wouldn’t we use the differing numbers to suite our position. That one method of counting is used does not make the other a liar.

i do not recall him saying we had the best, though he may have once. I do remember him saying it was better than perceived or by one calculating method.

This has nothing to do with “methods of counting.” It is deception, pure and simple. And he has repeated it over and over. He cites the “case death rate.” Anyone who is curious can see for themselves: Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center The “case death rate” is simply the number of deaths divided by the number of cases. For the US, the rate is 2.0. (In other words, if you get Covid, there’s a 2% chance you’re going to die.) And yes, there are a lot of other countries with higher rates. There are a lot more countries with lower rates. Take Germany–1.6%; Norway-0.9%; Japan-1.4%, Singapore <0.1%, New Zealand-1.2%, Taiwan, 1.2%, Thailand (or "Thighland as OBL calls it)-1.5% etc. etc. have a look. Trump apparently never bothered to.

As for Trump saying it, try his interview with Fox News with Chris Wallace back in July:

Pause the video when Trump gets the “statistics” from his lackey. The title is “Case Death Rates.” And of course since July things have just gotten worse; both the US cases and deaths have doubled since then. And he has repeated his claim many times–do your own search for the videos. Now to me and millions of other rational people, what’s astounding here is not making a “mistake.” It’s never correcting the “mistake” and repeating it over and over. The W. Post has counted certain “misstatements” that have been repeated over 40 times!

 

[benjammin]

Sadly, I find that everyone lies at some point or another and sadly when it comes to these big issues, people will justify their beliefs and ideas no matter how stupid or hurtful. This we end up with articles like this on one end or the mainstream media on the other. Both are sensationalist and have their audience and are looking to get clicks and likes and might believe that in doing so their cause is noble. Problem is that people end up becoming partisan hacks who discredit whatever view point is against them even if it’s not that bad.

For example, I have catholic friends who insist the covid vaccine will contain aborted fetuses. Doesn’t matter if I give them news from EWTN or Fox or CNN they’ll still claim it’s a lie and so they keep up misinformation. They probably aren’t intentionally lying but it’s as if people disregard anything but their own opinion or those who reinforce it.

I’ll be honest, I’m not a fan of Obama’s pro choice views but that’s bad enough. He isn’t Satan and he might have some good parts about him. Yes he’s pro choice and I hope he changes. Sadly I find a lot of conservatives almost want him to go to hell. They might not say it out loud but sadly based on people’s actions towards the other party as well as words, it might be true.

That being said liberals are guilty of this too and have their own biases and lies they believe but let’s not act like those of us on conservative side are better. I’d rather win them over then damn them. And we can do that. Sadly I feel like few are convinced of this and think they have to resort to unsavory tactics to promote good.

 

[mcq72]

Sorry, I haven’t come across it. Feel free to enlighten me with facts and sources.

lol…we struggle over elections so …

How about , 3 years , 50,000,00 dollars of investigation , all on falsified subpoenas, you know Russia, Russia ,Russia…so the Dems during impeachment hearings also called it all conspiracy theories which was easily rebutted, for the information and evidence of false subpoenas and memos between a few FBI and DOJ officials had just been recently verified. That is right , folks inside government trying to take down president.

We won’t even get into Hillary and the FBI “acquittal” (not their job).

But thanks for agreeing on Bernie getting manipulated.

…The “is deception, pure and simple. He cites the “case death rate… And death rate” is simply the number of deaths divided by the number of cases…

Disagree to deception. Both methods are valid frameworks and garner some understanding.

For example a study showed that there were 5 accidents over a busy road during rush hour and only one during any several hours anytime otherwise. Some have posited it was safer to drive outside of rush hour. (accidents per hour). Others said it was safer during rush hour.(accidents per cars ) Both viewpoints were statiscally accurate if you think about it. Both had there driving lessons.

 

[mcq72]

We agree again! Don’t you just yearn for the old days of the late 19th c. when there was child labor, almost no unions, no paid vacation, almost no holidays, 12-hour days, and no safety regulations to get in the way of unbridled capitalism? Yes. Definitely a leftward swing! And all the better for it!

Not sure wage regulations and unions are totally a socialist elements. I mean they are still a version of, extension of labor/capitalust relations. But will aggree that social consciousness has been formed or influenced by socialism even some communism.

So I agree with social consciousnees of better labor practices. What I would like to add to your good points in that regard is that while we still advance in a few areas such as child leave, we have fallen back in others. I believe baby boomers witnessed or came out of our golden age economically speaking. We had 40 hour week. No one worked on Sunday (save select drug stores). Many households had one income earner, sufficing to have home ownership, have a car, and that new thing called a tv. That as you know is sadly gone. We have gone backwards, for many reasons ( socialist trends are in the mix for blames, not just capitalists).

Also recall a high school teacher saying we were headed more towards socialism while Soviets/ China towards capitalism. This was 50 years ago.

Anyways, being right/ left is more than economic…

 

[mcq72]

But so far he has restricted himself to lying about his past history, not about policies

Well maybe maybe not. I mostly get fed by mainstream media that is biased for Biden. Pretty sure he is not lying about his policy of liking certain ice cream flavors. Thank forefathers for freedom of the press to get to the bottom of that…

Anyways appreciate your admitting his error.

Despite his Wharton degree, he seems to have a completely erroneous idea of how trade works.

As to Mexico paying for the wall, agree did not go as most understood it. Yet it can be said that trade deal with Mexico will benefit US workers and government revenue to some extent, even if small, and certainly not enough to pay for entire wall at this point.

On the other hand, Democrats are accused of deporting huge numbers of people. Why would they do that if they favor “open borders”? Doesn’t make sense

Makes total sense when you play both ends. Obama just played to the left, so you quietly deport to keep some sanity with right but loudly protects other illegals for his left base. Just like Trump quietly still lets many illegal immigrants alone but loudly throws others out and turns back many at the border to play to the right.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

For example a study showed that there were 5 accidents over a busy road during rush hour and only one during any several hours anytime otherwise. Some have posited it was safer to drive outside of rush hour. (accidents per hour). Others said it was safer during rush hour.(accidents per cars ) Both viewpoints were statiscally accurate if you think about it. Both had there driving lessons.

Appreciate your comments, but I’m going to raise the white flag. I can see that there is absolutely nothing I can say or show (even videos!!!) that would dent your beliefs.

But as for Covid, there are only three ways to calculate death rates as far as I know:

1. case death/fatality rate–Covid deaths divided by Covid cases (Trump’s favorite)
2. Covid death rate per 100,000 population
3. “excess deaths” – How many people died in a given month compared to the year before or some average in the past.

Whatever you use, the US performance is abysmal. To pretend the US “has done a terrific job” is fantasy. As the Post pointed out a while back, there were more new cases in the White House in 1 day than there were in all of Taiwan in 1 week. There’s a reason for that, and his initials are DJT. South Australia got panicked by 22 new cases; the US sits back calmly when there are 200,000 new cases. That’s insane.

I–and most of my friends–are struggling with the idea that Trump actually got millions more votes this time around. I think you understand my point of view–I see him on TV saying things every day that are simply contrary to fact. And I am repulsed. And yet many of his supporters are either unaware of what he is saying, or they excuse it or explain it away. And his ignorance has consequences, which again seem to be denied or explained away. I am at a loss to understand how rational people can do this, esp. with the internet at hand. It almost always takes less than 5 minutes to find out the truth; I can only assume his supporters simply don’t bother.

Are you aware that according to Bolton’s book Trump was in a meeting with Teresa May. May mentioned in passing Britain’s nuclear capability. Trump turned to her and said “I didn’t know Britain had nuclear weapons!” I won’t go into all the details, which are available online, but suffice it to say that Britain was working on an atomic bomb several years before the US. When the US came into the war, Britain formed a partnership to work on the project and turned over all its research. It was a joint effort with the UK, the US, Canada, and Australia. All of them contributed to it. Five of the department heads at Los Alamos were British. After the successful explosion of the bombs, PM Atlee gave a speech where he called the atomic bomb “our” bomb, and rightly so. It was a joint effort.

Now, knowing that, as May would have, how would you feel if, 75 years later, a US president said “I didn’t know Britain had nuclear weapons!” I know how I would feel, because I feel that way now.

 

[AlNg]

there were more new cases in the White House in 1 day than there were in all of Taiwan in 1 week. There’s a reason for that, and his initials are DJT. South Australia got panicked by 22 new cases; the US sits back calmly when there are 200,000 new cases. That’s insane.

Are you sure that all those who were tallied to have died from Covid 19 did not have pre existing conditions, such as heart disease, hypertension, weakened immunity systems, cancer, etc., which were the actual cause of death?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I’m also going to guess that you’re unaware of this gem: Peter Navarro, Trump’s economic advisor, was on PBS earlier this year. Navarro was trying to explain why imports are “bad.” His argument was that imports decreased GDP. He gave the Econ 101 definition of GDP = C (consumption) + I (investment) + G (gov. spending) + E (exports) - M (imports) as proof. He even wrote the formula on a white board so we peasants could understand. The formula is correct; and to anyone who knows nothing about economics, it sure looks like if imports increase GDP will decrease because imports are subtracted. But anyone who has passed Econ 101 also knows the reason for subtracting “M” is to eliminate double counting. If you buy a BMW from Germany, that’s consumption. If a company buys $100 million of machine tools from Brazil, that’s I. If the gov. buys $100 million Baretta pistols from Italy, that’s G. So they are all subtracted out at the end with “M.” In other words, the amount of imports has no effect on GDP. Ever. By its very definition, it balances. You could argue that imports have indirect effects on US employment, etc., but that wasn’t what Navarro was saying. PBS let Navarro’s nonsense pass without comment; they even repeated the segment on a later program. Without comment. And I suspect that 90% of the viewers watching it said, “Yeah, what Navarro’s saying makes sense.” But it didn’t. It was total nonsense. He would have gotten an F in Econ 101. And this guy had a job at the White House???

Or you could take the nonsense about NATO countries not paying their fair share. NATO is not a club with dues. Several years ago NATO as a whole agreed that each country would try to spend 2% of its GDP on defense. By 2022! They were making progress on this when Trump was elected in 2016–6 years from the goal year. And you know what happened next. He claimed that each country “owed” 2% of GDP for defense. Nonsense.

Finally, I would strongly recommend two books that make an attempt at explaining the divide in the US today. “Coming Apart” by Charles Murray (published 2000) and “The Upswing” by Robert Putnam (new). There are a lot of videos of Putnam explaining his book, like >

These are not political books, they just present data from the census and surveys. But it’s illuminating.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Are you sure that all those who were tallied to have died from Covid 19 did not have pre existing conditions, such as heart disease, hypertension, weakened immunity systems, cancer, etc., which were the actual cause of death?

If I had a dime for every time I’ve heard this I could buy a new car. Please go to the internet and find out how death certificates are written. I have. You should too.

If I’m standing on a cliff and you come along and push me off, do you say to the police “No, it wasn’t murder! He was standing on a cliff! That’s what killed him!” Please.

And if you want to play that game, fine. Just compare the deaths in a given month–say Sept.–with the deaths in Sept. 2019. Surprise! there are more deaths in Sept. 2020! And a LOT more than have been counted as Covid deaths. Experts have said all along that the Covid deaths are vastly UNDER counted because every death isn’t tested for Covid or examined carefully.

 

[AlNg]

Experts have said all along that the Covid deaths are vastly UNDER counted

And you believe them?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

And you believe them?

And you don’t? Do you have some secret knowledge that all the world’s experts don’t?

 

[AlNg]

Do you have some secret knowledge that all the world’s experts don’t?

i didn’t know it was all the experts of the whole world who were saying that the covid 19 cases were vastly undercounted. Could you give a reference which shows that all the world’s experts say such?

 

[Montrose]

Disagreeing viewpoints are not necessarily lies. Apparently, FOX has now caved on principle, so they are being deserted.

Who to demonize now?

With the FOX opinion hosts you don’t get differing viewpoints. You get outright lies throughout Trump’s entire Presidency and to covid-19 which they stated was a hoax!!

 

[Erikaspirit16]

i didn’t know it was all the experts of the whole world who were saying that the covid 19 cases were vastly undercounted. Could you give a reference which shows that all the world’s experts say such?

You could start here: Debunking the False Claim That COVID Death Counts Are Inflated | Scientific American

https://www.bu.edu/sph/2020/10/01/us-covid-deaths-may-be-undercounted-by-36-percent/

COVID-19-associated Deaths Significantly Undercounted | HealthLeaders Media

I’m sure you can use Google…

Of course you could always assume that all these studies are part of a giant world-wide conspiracy involving every medical and scientific body on earth. If so, no amount of evidence would convince you otherwise, since obviously it’s all part of the conspiracy. And if you do find a random “expert” who argues that Covid deaths are exaggerated, I think by definition that means he’s NOT an “expert”; he’s a charlatan.

 

[AlNg]

And if you do find a random “expert” who argues that Covid deaths are exaggerated, I think by definition that means he’s NOT an “expert”;

What you think and what is a fact may not be the same thing.
Nancy Pelosi, governor Gavin Newsom, Chris Cuomo, Dr. Fauci and many others have been telling us that Covid-19 is a deadly, easily contracted virus which requires that everyone wear a mask. If Nancy Pelosi, Gavin Newsom, Chris Cuomo and Dr. Fauci really believed that Covid-19 was deadly and easily contracted, why would they go around risking their lives by not wearing masks?

 

[ChuckB]

The only recent Presidents who I thought even tried to be honest were Carter and Truman. Neither one was very popular in the end.

I’m old enough that I also think of Carter as a “recent president.” But Truman??? You must be on the CAF Council of Elders.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

why would they go around risking their lives by not wearing masks?

They wouldn’t. They don’t.

 

[AlNg]

They wouldn’t.

Published photos and news reports of Nancy Pelosi, governor Gavin Newsom, Chris Cuomo, and Dr. Fauci not wearing masks show that you are wrong. Are we a nation of liars? Do you keep up with the news?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Published photos and news reports of Nancy Pelosi, governor Gavin Newsom, Chris Cuomo, and Dr. Fauci not wearing masks show that you are wrong. Are we a nation of liars? Do you keep up with the news?

I’m sure they remove their masks when giving a speech or when they are at home or alone in their offices. Otherwise, masks. Which you can see any day you like on TV.

 

[AlNg]

I’m sure they remove their masks when giving a speech or when they are at home or alone in their offices. Otherwise, masks.

Not true. They were seen in public not wearing masks. And they were not giving speeches. Are we a nation of liars?