Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

[AngryAtheist8]

I really do not understand. A husband is enjoined to sacrifice himself even unto death, and you’re complaing about the *wife’s *situation?!?!?!

Most men are never actually called upon to do that (even if their faithful).
And I would rather die once than be servile for a lifetime.

 

[St_Francis]

Most men are never actually called upon to do that (even if their faithful).
And I would rather die once than be servile for a lifetime.

Obedience is not servility. When your boss asks you to write a report and you do so, you are obeying him. Do you feel servile?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
The first part could also appropriately be titled Powers and Privileges of the Husband.

I find it particularly telling that wives are commanded to fear their husbands. Moreover, the lines about how women are weaker and must ask their husbands if they even want to leave the house dis-spell any illusion that women are considered equal from this point of view.

I read that as the husband fearing the grace of the Christian wife. The thing is, it isn’t ‘privileges’ that is the wrong attitude. It is a virtuous responsibility. It’s also something that cannot be put down even if the husband wishes to.

This also reflects the natural order that has women protected in the household, rather than in the dangers of society. The father has responsibility for the daughter until she is married.

The world is a dangerous place. When the natural order is followed, both men and women are safer. Instead, in an upside down society, we have the large prevelance of violence, assaults, lack of chastity – I think it is easy to see that following this method, the amount of crime against women goes down immensely, and the respect and protection goes up.

The family protects the mothers and daughters this way.

God is a patriarch. It is no surprise that He orders creation on this model. But the negative connotations society has to it are not its reality. In Christian life there’s a proper way to live it that brings out the good in everything.

That is simply not the case Shin.
In societies where women are strictly relegated to the home (such as Saudi Arabia’s) they are not more valued, cherished, or well treated. The opposite is actually true.

They are more likely to be murdered or mistreated (often by their own husbands or fathers who have complete power over them) and if they are raped or accused of other sexual misconduct they may very well be treated as an outcast and/or killed.

Western women giving up all power and independence would not make them better protected and more respected. It would just make them more vulnerable and more likely to be victimized. It would also mean that those in power could safely ignore women’s needs and concerns (which has been the norm throughout history).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Have we neglected to mention that an immoral order is *not *to be obeyed?

The thing is that authority is connected with responsibility. People do not get authority just for fun; they get it because they have responsibilities. The husband is *responsible *for his family; he is responsible for their safety and their condition–fed, clothed, housed, educated. The husband is responsible for taking care of his family.

I think the problem is that when we live in relative safety as most Americns do, that we lose sight of what it means to be responsible for a family’s safety. But I have heard that children in some parts of the city cannot go out and play because it has become so dangerous. Their parents keep inside *to keep them safe. *

And the same goes for other times and places. There are still places where it is not all that safe for women to go out and about on the streets by themselves. It’s going too far to make a law against it, but wouldn’t you tell your mother or your sister to stay away from some parts of town after dark? Evwn if nothing really bad happeneed, would you want them to be accosted by men asking how much?

These rules are not tailored to Life in Suburban America in the 21st Century–they are tailored to all of history all over te world.

**And do you think whdn it says in the bible that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves His Church that husbands are being told to be dommineering abusive husbands?/**QUOTE]

I don’t think it matters honestly.
If the law and the culture gives men largely unlimited and unregulated authority over their wives (as the law and culture used to in the West and still does in many other places) the men can do whatever they want with that power once they have it.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Obedience is not servility. When your boss asks you to write a report and you do so, you are obeying him. Do you feel servile?

No, but I could quit if I wanted to.
And there’s the possibility of getting promoted and becoming his peer or perhaps even superior. But women don’t have the possibility of advancement in marriage.

Moreover, my boss has authority only over certain aspects of my life.
If he ordered me to have sex with him or give him all my money I would spit in his face.

Whereas if a Catholic wife who believed as you do received similar orders from her husband…

 

[carn]

If he ordered me to have sex with him or give him all my money I would spit in his face.

Whereas if a Catholic wife who believed as you do received similar orders from her husband…

she would likely have not to follow those orders, because such orders are likely immoral.

(@St Francis. While techincally one point about marriage is sex and both should take care that no one feels that aspect to be disregarded, the moment a husband orders his wife to have sex, marriage situation has probably turned so bad, that both do no longer act out of love and care for another and therefore very likely such a husbands order is immoral. Same if he orders her to give him all the money.)

About wiki, you are aware that wiki claims these numbers to be from the official report?

Another one having smae numbers claiming they are from the official report.
anesi.com/titanic.htm

You deny that the guideline “women and children first” was ever followed?
Or you deny that it stems from christian cultures?
Or you deny it is a sign of respect for women?

 

[Tony_the_mad]

No, but I could quit if I wanted to.
And there’s the possibility of getting promoted and becoming his peer or perhaps even superior. But women don’t have the possibility of advancement in marriage.

Moreover, my boss has authority only over certain aspects of my life.
If he ordered me to have sex with him or give him all my money I would spit in his face.

Whereas if a Catholic wife who believed as you do received similar orders from her husband…

I cannot speak of other situations, but Paul speaks very directly about this. A woman’s body belongs to her husband and a man’s body belongs to his wife.

Further, Paul says that women are co-heirs (if I remember the correct word) to the same grace and that in God, there is no woman nor man. On the other hand, the Bible also states in the same letter if I recall correctly that women should not speak at all in church, when earlier it says that women should speak with their heads covered. One has to be very careful when singling out a verse or two with the Bible.

We also have to be careful not to ignore verses just because we don’t like them. Personally, I think Paul’s commands about the relationship to men and women applies mostly to that community, but that men and women of our age should take them seriously. Women should be obedient and men should protect the way Jesus protects the Church. But in our age in particular but also in all ages we should not deny that men are also called to be obedient to their wives just as women are called to be protective of their husbands. Paul even cites one form of ‘obedience’ when he says that a man’s body belongs to his wife. To emphasize the obedience of the wife is not to deny the obedience demanded of the husband. Indeed there are quite a few husbands who are obedient to their wives for which the Church does not say that he is wrong for doing so.

 

[Ubenedictus]

This is just wishful thinking on your part. I’ll go with Pope John Paul II over you.

it isnt wishful think, pope jp would agree that the wives should submit to her husband but he believes that it is half of the story eph5:22 must be interpreted in it right context- with eph5:21 and gen 2. It is a mutual submission.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
What if he ordered you to do something evil or insane?
Like murdering someone or giving away everything to charity (so that there wasn’t even enough left to feed the family).

Because that’s when the authority really matters.

Even if they disapproved of monarchy, most people wouldn’t mind (that much) living under a benevolent king who seldom used his power and never abused it. It would probably be easy to forget (or at least not think of) the fact that there even was a king in such a monarchy for long periods.

Its when people try to selfishly use and abuse their power that the limits of their authority are revealed.

good explanation, but even the authority of the husband is not limitless. I think it has someone has already said so. Just to add, i really hate worst case scenaria discussions but i will take yours seriously.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
This is more along the lines of what experience has taught me to expect from people of faith.

The fact of the matter is, if I actually believed the things that St.Francis is saying, I would conclude that men are indeed better than women (due to the fact that they automatically have a superior position in the divine hierarchy).

Because the way that it usually works is that the higher ranking person is valued more, has both more authority and leeway, and commands more resources. Then there’s the fact that people can easily abuse their subordinates in a hierarchy for their own benefit (generally speaking).

ok good point, but i really dont believe that the hierarchial structure is the reason for abuse. Some People are alway gona abuse another wether their above or below, the check against that is a true respect for each other. That is what a marriage is about and obedience is not absolute.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

It does if you interpret the text literally:

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
-Ephesians 5

Now of course you don’t have to interpret the text literally, but if you leave yourself free to interpret Scripture at your own discretion then it could mean anything.

it seem so to you because you ignore eph5:21

 

[Ubenedictus]

Originally Posted by LucyLight
This is just wishful thinking on your part. I’ll go with Pope John Paul II over you

A lot of the official documents Pope John Paul II released concerning women stressed their equal value and dignity (in relation to men). He also wrote about how it was unfair to reduce them to servitude.

has anybody said that a woman does not have equal dignity and value? Is anybody saying the woman should be a slave?
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

The first part could also appropriately be titled Powers and Privileges of the Husband.

I find it particularly telling that wives are commanded to fear their husbands. Moreover, the lines about how women are weaker and must ask their husbands if they even want to leave the house dis-spell any illusion that women are considered equal from this point of view.

we certainly interprete the word ‘weaker sex’ in different ways, it actually says to ‘honor her as the weaker sex since you are joint heir in the order of grace’, 1pt3:7 i thought the reason the for ‘ladies first’ and guy open the door for girl etc was because of this passage. It is saying the she should be treated as the delicate one, you totally missed peter’s point. And yeah i dont think the wife should ‘‘leave’’ home until a discussion. Your 1st point is from 1pt3:2 maybe your bible version is beter that the one used above and i sincerely hope you get the message.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Most men are never actually called upon to do that (even if their faithful).
And I would rather die once than be servile for a lifetime.

and where did you get the servile idea? It seem we are talking about two different things. Im talking about a relationship of respect and you seem to be talking about a master-slave relationship. I feel like asking, did you mistake this thread for another?
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
The first part could also appropriately be titled Powers and Privileges of the Husband.

I find it particularly telling that wives are commanded to fear their husbands. Moreover, the lines about how women are weaker and must ask their husbands if they even want to leave the house dis-spell any illusion that women are considered equal from this point of view.

That is simply not the case Shin.
In societies where women are strictly relegated to the home (such as Saudi Arabia’s) they are not more valued, cherished, or well treated. The opposite is actually true.

They are more likely to be murdered or mistreated (often by their own husbands or fathers who have complete power over them) and if they are raped or accused of other sexual misconduct they may very well be treated as an outcast and/or killed.

Western women giving up all power and independence would not make them better protected and more respected. It would just make them more vulnerable and more likely to be victimized. It would also mean that those in power could safely ignore women’s needs and concerns (which has been the norm throughout history).

im sorry if this question sounds personal, have you met a really respectful guy?
Ubenedictus

 

[LucyLight]

it isnt wishful think, pope jp would agree that the wives should submit to her husband but he believes that it is half of the story eph5:22 must be interpreted in it right context- with eph5:21 and gen 2.** It is a mutual submission**.
Ubenedictus

Good that’s all I’m saying that the submission is mutual. But if you say that wives should submit to their husbands and say nothing of the husband submitting to the wife then you are saying something different which is how I interpreted it.

 

[LucyLight]

we certainly interprete the word ‘weaker sex’ in different ways, it actually says to ‘honor her as the weaker sex since you are joint heir in the order of grace’, 1pt3:7 i thought the reason the for ‘ladies first’ and guy open the door for girl etc was because of this passage. It is saying the she should be treated as the delicate one, you totally missed peter’s point. And yeah i dont think the wife should ‘‘leave’’ home until a discussion. Your 1st point is from 1pt3:2 maybe your bible version is beter that the one used above and i sincerely hope you get the message.
Ubenedictus

If the husband wanted to leave the home should there also be a discussion? My husband and I are both adults. He doesn’t ask for my permission to leave the home and I don’t ask for his. However, if I know that leaving the house would upset him I probably wouldn’t go and vise versa. The husband is not the parent. If a husband told his wife she could not leave the home that would be controlling and abusive. Unless of course there was wild bears roaming around in the backyard or the vickings where coming…then I would think he was being sweet.

I think what’s wrong with this thinking is that you’re treating the wife like a child. Btw, a parent would give up their life for their child as well. All that means is that you love them. As a parent I know better than my child and that is why they have to obey me for their own protection. A husband does not know better than his wife. Just because he would give his life up for his wife does not mean that I should obey him. Treating a wife like a child is not giving her equal value and respect its demeaning.

 

[LucyLight]

I thin we’re turning around and finding out we’re on the same page

I hope so

 

[LucyLight]

Duties Of A Husband

It is the duty of the husband to treat his wife generously and honourably. It should not be forgotten that Eve was called by Adam his companion. The woman, he says, whom thou gavest me as a companion. Hence it was, according to the opinion of some of the holy Fathers, that she was formed not from the feet but from the side of man; as, on the other hand, she was not formed from his head, in order to give her to understand that it was not hers to command but to obey her husband.

The husband should also be constantly occupied in some honest pursuit with a view to provide necessaries for the support of his family and to avoid idleness, the root of almost every vice.

He is also to keep all his family in order, to correct their morals, and see that they faithfully discharge their duties.

Duties Of A Wife

On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up by the Prince of the Apostles: Let wives be subject to their husbands. that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word by the conversation of the wives, considering your chaste conversation with fear. Let not their adorning be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: but the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.

To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband’s consent.

Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.

• Catechism of the Council of Trent

'In like manner also let wives be subject to their husbands: that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word, by the conversation of the wives. Considering your chaste conversation with fear. Whose adorning let it not be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: But the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and a meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands:

As Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters you are, doing well, and not fearing any disturbance. Ye husbands, likewise dwelling with them according to knowledge, giving honour to the female as to the weaker vessel, and as to the co-heirs of the grace of life: that your prayers be not hindered. ’

1 Peter 3:1-7

That the husband is the head of the family, and the wife is under obedience to him, is unchangable Catholic teaching. God Himself is a patriarch and this is the model and order He has given to the family and society.

This is why it is important to choose a good husband, and if you would have a problem with a particular potential husband being in authority over you, not to marry. Because afterwards, it is a matter of virtue and sin. Obedience is a virtue and sanctifies us and gains us interior holiness and reward in Heaven. If a husband absconds from his role, that’s a sin – and so too if a wife usurps it, this is what Eve did, and so the children of Eve are constantly tempted this way, because of a predisposition to this failing now being a part of original sin. Just as the husband is tempted to either allow it, or attempt to us it wrongly to satisfy some sinful passion rather than virtuously, which is its sole purpose.

To people who have long been propagandized by both Communist originating Feminism and an over individualism that defies any subjection, these things can be at best foreign ideas. But they’re written in the natural and divine law and so we can appreciate the goodness in them, rather than mistakenly follow the propaganda, if we are open to doing so and seek to do so.

“Subjection” to God is a good thing. Subjection to those God places in authority over us is too. Obedience is how saints are made, and virtue gained. Obedience of children to parents, religious to religious superiors, and wife to husband, penitent to the confessor…

If an archangel, if such were imaginable, should envy and dislike and say it us unfair not to be in the Choir of Seraphim rather than the Choir of Archangels… what kind of respect to God in Heaven would this be? So it is not unfitting that some be in one position, and others be in another.

Awesome Shin:thumbsup: Way to evangelize! I’m sure viewers who where considering joining Catholicism just signed up for RCIA

 

[livingwordunity]

My oldest son recently informed me he strongly believed The Church still actively promoted the idea that women are the “weaker sex” and he pointed to a couple of writings by Thomas Aquinas as proof.

In the military men are required to do a lot more pushups and situps and run the run a lot faster. This is because women are physically the weaker sex. The Catholic Church teaches that the opposite sexes are equal in dignity and complimentary to each other but not the same. The Church teaches that each sex has their strengths and weaknesses, and that’s why men and women go so well together in marriage.