Artist hangs herself after aborting her twins

[Elric]

There has been a lot of sympathy expressed for the young woman and it has been suggested that we pray for the repose of her soul.

No there hasnt. There has been some on the first page (even there some couldnt wait to start the anti-abortion speil), but that was pretty much dropped by the second page of the thread.

I almost feel like you have been reading a different thread then me. If someone suggested that this young lady deserved her fate then you should quote them so that we can all agree with you. Perhaps I missed a post in this long thread.(very possible)

I think that perhaps you are reading a different thread, especally when you make statements like that last one.

It sounds like you are suggesting though that discussing the issues surrounding this woman’s suicide somehow makes us less understanding of the pain her family is suffering.

Oh please!!!

The issues surrounding her suicide are not being discussed. How is comparisons to Nurenberg, statistics of when abortion was illegal, globs of flesh, an unrelated story of different womans claim that she was not fully informed, what they teach nurses ect Discussing the issues surrounding this womans suicide?

You should be ashamed of yourself for even making such a justification.

If a woman was brutally murdered while shopping, discussing the lack of such things as video surveillance in her local mall, does not take away from our sorrow at her death. So, I am confused how discussing the cause of this young woman’s death-depression resulting from aborting her twins-takes away from our sadness over her demise.

Read the freaking article again!!!

She had a history of depression before the abortion for starters.

You are not talking about the cause of her death at all, its just become another oppotunity for people to stand on their soap box and preach their already made arguments on the evils of abortion.

 

[hasikelee]

No there hasnt. There has been some on the first page (even there some couldnt wait to start the anti-abortion speil), but that was pretty much dropped by the second page of the thread.

I almost feel like you have been reading a different thread then me. If someone suggested that this young lady deserved her fate then you should quote them so that we can all agree with you. Perhaps I missed a post in this long thread.(very possible)

I think that perhaps you are reading a different thread, especally when you make statements like that last one.

Oh please!!!

The issues surrounding her suicide are not being discussed. How is comparisons to Nurenberg, statistics of when abortion was illegal, globs of flesh, an unrelated story of different womans claim that she was not fully informed, what they teach nurses ect Discussing the issues surrounding this womans suicide?

You should be ashamed of yourself for even making such a justification.

Read the freaking article again!!!

She had a history of depression before the abortion for starters.

You are not talking about the cause of her death at all, its just become another oppotunity for people to stand on their soap box and preach their already made arguments on the evils of abortion.

 

[Elric]

Elric, your previous posting history is available for scrutiny, and will not build credibility for the argument you are attempting to make on this thread.

What on earth are you talking about?

What “argument” am I attempting to make on this thread?

Are you honestly suggesting that I am all for people commiting suicide and that I have no sympathy for people suffering from a mental illness?

By all means check my posting history, carry out your threat. I think that you might find why I am saying what I am in this topic.

Distracting others from discussing the emotional, psychological and physical complications of abortive procedures does nothing to help the victims of abortion.

Excuse me???

I am NOT using this thread to further any argument about abortion (in fact I even suggested doing it in another thread and said it was worthy of discussion), I am however suggesting that it is insensitive to use this thead as a platform for your anti-abortion ideas (pro-abortion as well, but I dont think that I have seen any of them).

How dare you even suggest that am doing otherwise.

I find your stance on this thread to be quite ironic.

I dont think that you even know what my stance is on anything, going by what you have just posted.

Let me try and explain it to you:

I am saddened because a young person with a promising future took their own life.

I am upset because she was unable to cope with her life and the decision that she had made, she was unable to find help and she couldnt express herslef to those that knew her. I am upset that she believed that she had no other options other than taking her own life and that she felt so alone. I am also upset because of the circumstances that lead her to choose abortion.

I am ashamed because people have this womans pain and suffering as an excuse to put foward their abortion arguments and stand on their soap boxes. This isnt the place for that.

To be blunt: I am not opposing any anti-abortion arguments, I am opposed to them being made in this topic.

 

[vz71]

I am ashamed because people have this womans pain and suffering as an excuse to put foward their abortion arguments and stand on their soap boxes. This isnt the place for that.

To be blunt: I am not opposing any anti-abortion arguments, I am opposed to them being made in this topic.

Do you posit then that the abortion played no role at all in her suicide?

 

[Elric]

Do you posit then that the abortion played no role at all in her suicide?

What?

Please dont insult either of us by asking such a stupid question, especally when you already know the answer. You already know that I am not suggestig that at all, bu I would love to hear your reasoning behind asking such a stupid question.

Hey I know, lets look at possibilites on how this could have been prevented.

Perhaps they should have checked her medical history at the hospital, seen that she has a history of mental illness and made arrangements for her to see a psychologist and have her assessed.

Perhaps they need more counsellers at the hospital, impartial counsellers would be an idea, to talk with them and help them work out if they are making the right choice for themselves.

What about afterwards?

Maybe there is a need for counsellers to help people cope, counsellers that wont judge them.

In this womans case, especally with her history, she should have most definatly been watched. Her GP should have actually done more.

I also wonder where her family were and if they knew what was going on (that ISNT an accusation, its a question.).

Maybe they should not have performed the abortion.

There is more to this than just abortion.

 

[vz71]

What?

Please dont insult either of us by asking such a stupid question, especally when you already know the answer. You already know that I am not suggestig that at all, bu I would love to hear your reasoning behind asking such a stupid question.

Aside from the personal insults you are hurling, I am finding you to be dishonest.

You first lay out that we should not discuss abortion in relation to this suicide “…I am ashamed because people have this womans pain and suffering as an excuse to put foward their abortion arguments and stand on their soap boxes. This isnt the place for that…”

And yet the only reason not to discuss one with the other would be if they were unrelated. Yet when pushed to answer…well “You already know that I am not suggestig that at all, bu I would love to hear your reasoning behind asking such a stupid question.”

Have the intestinal fortitude to stand up for what you are saying at least. As for my reasoning…it should be self evident. It was a sword put out there for you to skewer yourself with.

The insults you hurled in response tell me that you have jumped upon the sword with zeal. The illogic of your position is so painfully obvioius that you have no real response then to call someone asking a simple question ‘stupid’.

Have a nice day.

 

[Elric]

Aside from the personal insults you are hurling, I am finding you to be dishonest.

What personal insults would they be exactly?

Where have I been dishonest?

You first lay out that we should not discuss abortion in relation to this suicide “…I am ashamed because people have this womans pain and suffering as an excuse to put foward their abortion arguments and stand on their soap boxes. This isnt the place for that…”

Dont try and twist what I say, that is being dishonest.

By all means please explain how exactly comparisons to Nurenberg, statistics on women dying during an abortion when it was illegal and after, people having abortions are murderers ect are related to this woman who hung herself?

Please tell me how me saying that these things are worthy of being discussed but should be discussed in another thread is being dishonest or what ever else you are accusing me of?

And yet the only reason not to discuss one with the other would be if they were unrelated. Yet when pushed to answer…well “You already know that I am not suggestig that at all, bu I would love to hear your reasoning behind asking such a stupid question.”

Now you are twisting your own words, that isnt what you pushed at all. You asked if her abortion played a role in her suicide.

Have the intestinal fortitude to stand up for what you are saying at least. As for my reasoning…it should be self evident. It was a sword put out there for you to skewer yourself with.

Actually I am standing up for what I am saying, unfortunatly you are not prepared to see that.

Now why exactly would you want to put this sword out for me to skewer myself with?

The insults you hurled in response tell me that you have jumped upon the sword with zeal. The illogic of your position is so painfully obvioius that you have no real response then to call someone asking a simple question ‘stupid’.

For starters. I did not call anyone stupid, I said the question was stupid. There is a big difference (asking a stupid question does not mean that you are stupid).

Secondly. How is my position illogical?

I noticed that you didnt even try to respond to my suggestions on how her suicide could have been prevented (which would be relevent to this topic), or my suggestion of discussing the other things in another thread.

All you have done is selectivly quoted me, try to twist my statements and ask rediculous questions to which the answer has already been given.

All for what gain?

As far as I can see so you can feel better about yourself for ignoring this womans pain and suicide and make unrelated anti-abortion arguments (I have not seen any pro-abortion arguments and I am not trying to support abortion).

The globs of flesh bit, what they teach nurses, another woman saying that she was not fully informed (a different woman altogether on a different continent) ect are not related to this particular topic. Yet this is what people are discussing in this topic (they seem more interested in these than the actual topic) and this is what you are defending.

Have a nice day.

Now that is insulting. You chastise me, accuse me of various things and then come out with this!

 

[mapleoak]

A young woman with a promising career has dies, taking her own life by hanging herself.

She not only took her own life, but also the lives of her unborn children. Indeed these were TWO (not one) very tragic events.

She has left behind family and friends who now have to deal with the pain of her death (and the way that she died) and try to come to terms with not seeing her again.

Her unborn children also left their family behind, but forcibly so and against the unborn childrens’ will.

Instead of talking about her grief or her families or suggesting ways that her suicide could have been prevented, what has happened?

There are two instance of taking a life/lives here. One is murder, the other suicide, neither of less merit of being discussed. However the fact that the abortion part tends to get pushed out of the way as if it doesn’t matter is reason that it needs to be kept in focus. The tremendous burden of guilt that this woman likely shouldered from the fact that she murdered her children is likely the single biggest motivator for her to commit suicide, though it would only be speculating on her moral culpability which is between her and God. It was the wrong way to act upon that guilt and that should be more the issue than the grief of her family. The root of the whole problem is that an abortion took place, was allowed to take place, and that she was fed medically inaccurate information so as to convince her it was okay to abort. So as you stated, we should discuss ways in which this suicide could have been prevented. What is the single most effective way to prevent such suicides? Prevent the abortion from happening in the first place.

People using the same lines for anti-abortion that have been used countless times on these forums, like abortion is murder (does that mean that this woman got what she deserved?)

No it is not acceptable to take justice into ones own hands.

**

A WOMAN HAS JUST DIED BY HANGING HERSELF

Can we focus on that and save the other stuff for another thread (Im not saying that it isnt worth debating, just not in this particular topic)?**It is vital to the topic at hand since, if the abortion of the children wouldn’t have happened in the first place, this woman likely would not have committed suicide. This includes the fact that information was withheld/wrongly presented to her before hand. She was apparently told what she wanted to hear and subsequently aborted her children.

Please show some compassion for this poor woman and her family.

Is having compassion for the unborn children that were murdered not having compassion for their family?

 

[vz71]

Now that is insulting. You chastise me, accuse me of various things and then come out with this!

“Have a nice day.” is now an insult?

 

[Elric]

She not only took her own life, but also the lives of her unborn children. Indeed these were TWO (not one) very tragic events.

OH MY GOODNESS!!!

Is there any lengths that you wont go to so that you can spew out your anti-abortion speil???

The claim you make is that there were two tragic events, yet one seems to be pushed to the wayside very quickly.

Her unborn children also left their family behind, but forcibly so and against the unborn childrens’ will.

It continues.

You are already labeling me as a “pro-choice” person, even though I am not arguing for or against abortion (in fact I have probably said more things against abortion in this thread), so I might as well say it and get it over with.

Prove it.

Prove that it was aganst their will.

Is that better?

There are two instance of taking a life/lives here. One is murder, the other suicide, neither of less merit of being discussed.

Well how about discussing the suicide then?

However the fact that the abortion part tends to get pushed out of the way as if it doesn’t matter is reason that it needs to be kept in focus.{/QUOTE]

What a really stupid thing to say.

The exact opposite is happening in this thread. Her abortion was part of it, it was not the whole thing.

The tremendous burden of guilt that this woman likely shouldered from the fact that she murdered her children is likely the single biggest motivator for her to commit suicide, though it would only be speculating on her moral culpability which is between her and God.

What the heck is wrong with you???

You are so obsessed with abortion that it over-rides all else.

It was the wrong way to act upon that guilt and that should be more the issue than the grief of her family. The root of the whole problem is that an abortion took place, was allowed to take place, and that she was fed medically inaccurate information so as to convince her it was okay to abort.

I am actually speechless at the lengths you go to push (I cant think of another way to describe it) your “agenda”.

What exactly was so hard about starting another thread where you could express your anti-abortion opinions in a more appropiate enviroment?

You wouldnt even have to think about any weak justifcations for doing it.

So as you stated, we should discuss ways in which this suicide could have been prevented. What is the single most effective way to prevent such suicides? Prevent the abortion from happening in the first place.

Well done, I am suprised that it took you so long to make that statement.

Now thats sorted out, how do we prevent other suicides from happening?

No it is not acceptable to take justice into ones own hands.

Now I understand the lack of compassion, she is a murderer and doesnt deserve any.

It is vital to the topic at hand since, if the abortion of the children wouldn’t have happened in the first place, this woman likely would not have committed suicide.

I dont see what statistis about women who died during an abortion (when it was illegal and after), comparisons to Nurenberg, what nurses are taught ect actually have to do with this topic.

But then again I did actually say that she should not have had the abortion.

This includes the fact that information was withheld/wrongly presented to her before hand. She was apparently told what she wanted to hear and subsequently aborted her children.

That is a lot of “facts” you keep saying, but it sounds like you are talking about someone else entirely. There have been one or two different cases presented in this thread, you might have mixed them up.

Is having compassion for the unborn children that were murdered not having compassion for their family?

Is that what you call it?

You know its quite strange that nobody actually mentioned her mental health (history of depression) at all, as though it doesnt exist and it couldnt have played any part in what happened (I actually mean from before she had the abortion).

Its actually funny that you made that statement about abortion being pushed aside, because that actually happens with mental illness. This thread is an example of that happening.

It really seems like people would rather cry “murder” or 'murderer" than discuss mental illness.

That is quite depressing.

 

[Elric]

“Have a nice day.” is now an insult?

In the context I mentioned, yes it is.

 

[mapleoak]

OH MY GOODNESS!!!

Is there any lengths that you wont go to so that you can spew out your anti-abortion speil???

Actually I should have known better than to give your post credibility by responding to it in the first place, but I couldn’t resist.

The claim you make is that there were two tragic events, yet one seems to be pushed to the wayside very quickly.

True. Kind of like the claim you are trying to make.

You are already labeling me as a “pro-choice” person, even though I am not arguing for or against abortion (in fact I have probably said more things against abortion in this thread),

Self conscious, are we?

so I might as well say it and get it over with.

Prove it.

Prove that it was aganst their will.

Is that better?

Self conscious, and justifiably so.

What a really stupid thing to say.

With all due regard to charity, I will refrain from response to the remainder of your post. I will admit though your opening and proceeding posts on this thread are consistent with those in past threads. To hear any mention or discussion of the murder of the unborn kind of makes the blood boil, doesn’t it?

Have a nice day!

 

[Holly3278]

Wow. This is truly sad. I feel so sorry for the mother who must have felt immense guilt after aborting her twins. However, I also feel very sorry for the twins who were brutally murdered. May God accept all of them into His heavenly kingdom.

 

[deb1]

Wow. This is truly sad. I feel so sorry for the mother who must have felt immense guilt after aborting her twins. However, I also feel very sorry for the twins who were brutally murdered. May God accept all of them into His heavenly kingdom.

Amen to this and I’ll add prayers for this young woman’s family.

 

[Elric]

Actually I should have known better than to give your post credibility by responding to it in the first place, but I couldn’t resist.

True. Kind of like the claim you are trying to make.

Self conscious, are we?

Self conscious, and justifiably so.

With all due regard to charity, I will refrain from response to the remainder of your post. I will admit though your opening and proceeding posts on this thread are consistent with those in past threads. To hear any mention or discussion of the murder of the unborn kind of makes the blood boil, doesn’t it?

Have a nice day!

Well that was a real good attempt at trolling, especally the “have a nice day” part, that made you look like a complete tosser. I guess that there is nothing that you wont stoop to. Is there any more way that you could twist what I say?

Now lets clear up a few things, because it seems that certain people have an inability to understand what others are expressing or are not able to read.

I was not in any way shape or form condoning abortion, can you get that into your head?

I was not condoning abortion.

So any argument about pro or anti-abortion set at anything that I have posted here is really pointless and a non-argument. You are basically arguing with yourself, rather than me.

I have stated, I dont know how many times, why dont you start a new thread about abortion because it is worth discussing (its strange that nobody has quoted me on that, yet will quite happily pull other random quotes out of where ever and try an twist them around). Then again I have also posted that she shouldnt have had the abortion as well, but thats just another thing that is ignored.

So dont argue the abortion issue with me on this thread, because I am not making any references to it at all.

Then there is this threat of how I post in other threads, whats up with that?

Yes I am consistant: I do worry about people who have a mental illness, my stand on people who commit suicide is consistant, I worry about people who are unable to cope and contenplate suicide. In fact I am very interested in issues regarding mental illness/health.

I have very good reasons for being consistant with regard to mental health/illness and suicide. In fact if you did check my post history, you might have noticed that I have stated that I have suicidal urges myself (it was in a thread where someone asked if having suicidal urges was a sin and I thought it was more than just a question). There were other things that I wont say, because I dont want them used against me (I know that the suicide thing will be, I dont really want to give more ammunition to people who seem ok with making it up).

Which brings us to another point. Whenever I bring up mental illness or suggestions that could have prevented her suicide, they are completly ignored!

It seems people would rather take shots at me about who knows what, argue with me about things that I am not even discussing and threaten me with my post history (which is kind of silly considering what I wrote above) than even mention mental illness. Which is relevent to this topic (it could have been a factor in her having the abortion).

That in itself makes you think.

So I guess that I will just sit back and wait for the next selectivly quoted shot, all the while wondering “who was being dishonest”?

 

[vz71]

I was not in any way shape or form condoning abortion, can you get that into your head?

I was not condoning abortion.

So any argument about pro or anti-abortion set at anything that I have posted here is really pointless and a non-argument. You are basically arguing with yourself, rather than me.

I have stated, I dont know how many times, why dont you start a new thread about abortion because it is worth discussing (its strange that nobody has quoted me on that, yet will quite happily pull other random quotes out of where ever and try an twist them around). Then again I have also posted that she shouldnt have had the abortion as well, but thats just another thing that is ignored.

So dont argue the abortion issue with me on this thread, because I am not making any references to it at all…

You used the word abortion 5 times in the preceding statement to make the point that you are “not making any references to it at all.”


If you are not making references to abortion, then don’t make references to abortion.

Either way, you seem to get very excited when someone takes issue with your arguments and posts refutation.
Are you unable to see their point?
Is it wrong not to have your particular viewpoint?

I should remind you that the same zeal with which you are decrying the supposed lack of compassion people show for this suicide victim can readily be turned on you for showing no compassion for the lives of the aborted in this circumstance.

 

[Elric]

You used the word abortion 5 times in the preceding statement to make the point that you are “not making any references to it at all.”

What I said was the abortion issue, I really thought that I made myself clear. Apparently not.

Or is it that you see that and just misquote me intentionally to try and start a no-existant argument?

I really hope its the former.

If you are not making references to abortion, then don’t make references to abortion.

Abortion issue, not abortion.

Its very hard to discuss this topic without stating “abortion”.

Either way, you seem to get very excited when someone takes issue with your arguments and posts refutation.
Are you unable to see their point?

As I have already shown, I can see their point/argument. Remember all those times I stated open a new thread?

I have not contested any of those arguments, but I have said that they dont really belong in this particular topic.

There is a difference.

Is it wrong not to have your particular viewpoint?

Can you actually explain what my viewpoint is?

You seem to ignore a lot of it.

I should remind you that the same zeal with which you are decrying the supposed lack of compassion people show for this suicide victim can readily be turned on you for showing no compassion for the lives of the aborted in this circumstance.

Can it?

I am suprised that you have not done so already, if that is the case.

The fact is that Im not showing a lack of compassion, just like I am not arguing anything involving the abortion ISSUE.

Speaking of compassion, I noticed that you didnt comment on the mental illness thing AGAIN.

Dont you care about the mentally ill?

Dont you think that it is worth discussing?

 

[vz71]

As I have already shown, I can see their point/argument. Remember all those times I stated open a new thread?

I have not contested any of those arguments, but I have said that they dont really belong in this particular topic.

You do not believe the adversarial nature of your comments indicate a contest? How about calling questions from various people stupid?
You are contesting arguments here.
Perhaps you do not realize it, but it nevertheless is the truth.

Can you actually explain what my viewpoint is?

No, I cannot. But it seems rather obvious that no one else on the thread shares it, else you would not feel the need to make accusatory statements concerning where compassion should and should not be found in this situation.

Can it?

I am suprised that you have not done so already, if that is the case.

Not everyone feels the need to accuse people of having little compassion for people in a horrid situation. Apparently you do.

Speaking of compassion, I noticed that you didnt comment on the mental illness thing AGAIN.

Dont you care about the mentally ill?

Dont you think that it is worth discussing?

Well, I was discussing your singular viewpoint and the illogic I see in it…if you believe mental illness need be a part of that conversation, that is your call.
I just did not want to imply mental instability on your part.

 

[vz71]

Eternal rest grant unto her soul, O Lord, and may Your perpetual light shine upon her. May she and all the Faithfully departed, especially those who have no one to pray for them, through Your sweet mercy Jesus, rest in peace.


~Liza

Perhaps this is not the appropriate thread for the question, but I wonder how much culpability there is in the suicide given the depression that led up to it?

 

[Elric]

You do not believe the adversarial nature of your comments indicate a contest? How about calling questions from various people stupid?

Are you refering to me saying that your question “Do you posit then that the abortion played no role at all in her suicide?” was stupid?

Considering that I already stated that her abortion played a role in her suicide, yes it was a stupid question.

You even admitted that it was asked to provoke a reaction from me. Unfortunatly you chose to do it by asking a stupid question.

You are contesting arguments here.
Perhaps you do not realize it, but it nevertheless is the truth.

No I contested your arguments that resulted from you trying to provoke me or get a reaction from me.

I didnt contest any of the arguments about the abortion issue (eg: abortion is murder, statistics on women dying during an abortion ect), I stated that they dont belong in this thread.

No, I cannot.

At least you were honest, I will give you credit for that.

So you cant actually explain what my viewpoint is, but feel the need to argue with me?

How exactly can you disaprove of my opinion/viewpoint if you dont know what it is?

If you dont understand my opinion or dont know it, why dont you just say that and ask me to clarify?

But it seems rather obvious that no one else on the thread shares it, else you would not feel the need to make accusatory statements concerning where compassion should and should not be found in this situation.

Besides that being false, it still doesnt explain how you can attack my point of view when you dont know what it is.

Not everyone feels the need to accuse people of having little compassion for people in a horrid situation. Apparently you do.

How about because its not true, I do feel compassion for the two unborn.

Well, I was discussing your singular viewpoint and the illogic I see in it…if you believe mental illness need be a part of that conversation, that is your call.

You were not discussing my point of view at all, you dont even know what it is for starters and admitted that you were trying to provoke a reaction from me.

You have already stated that you dont know my point of view, so how exactly can you call it illogical?

She had a history of mental illness, as stated in the article, so yes it should be part of the conversation. I stated there were many parts to this topic, her mental health is one of them.

I just did not want to imply mental instability on your part.

Wow there really is no low that you wont stoop to.

If you read post #61 (which you must of because you actually replied to it) you would have noticed that I did say that I had a mental instability (suicidal urges, that certainly isnt normal). Why did you have to do what I knew that you would but hoped that you wouldnt?

But it does answer those questions, even though you did try to dodge them.

Apparently you dont care about the mentally ill and would rather make fun of them.

I think it would be an idea if you didnt respond to my posts, I dont really have much time for poeple like yourself.