As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’

[josh987654321]

What’s actually happening, is these people are seeking to ‘change’ Church teaching to their desires. They think Pope Francis is some progressive and the overturning of the Churches 2000 year old teachings on marriage and the family (incl. other issue like abortion or contraception) is coming, that they are going to “get with the times” and that Cardinals like this are in agreement and working for these changes and such events are more proof/confirmation of this.

They are not all repentant, many are waiting and working for change. If the Cardinal is in fact in on It, then he is a heretic. If not, what he did was scandalous and naïve by advocating the secular LGBT movement. As it would also be if it were the secular feminist movement because of some of the things they campaign for such as abortion and contraception.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Sy_Noe]

What was extraordinary? I see these things:

That the Cardinal and fellow clergy worked with organizations such as Dignity and New Ways Ministry to create a Mass specifically for gay men and women.

That the Cardinal spoke to them and said that they were welcome without judgement, but calling them as they are - gay men and women. NOT as ‘Same-sex attracted’ men and women. (That has been a big talking point with Jim Martin and his new book.)

That the Mass was open communion. No questions asked.

That the men and women attending were, in many cases, married to their partners. In other words, sexually active men and women attended and received communion.

That the Cardinal got a lot of criticism and push back from fellow Church members. He is staying his ground.

That the Mass symbolized a door opening for a significant population of Catholics who have felt anything but ‘welcome’ in the RCC.

Those are my thoughts on reading the piece in the NYTimes and hearing friends and colleagues who are talking about this a LOT.

While I know none of this changes things across the whole body of Catholicism, thank you for sharing this story, ComplineSanFran. Had you not shared this news, many of us might never have heard about it. I have similar thoughts especially that some in the group were married under the law of the land to their same sex partners and the cardinal still welcomed all to the table to receive Jesus with no questions asked. As someone whom the Catholic Church would not welcome to come as I am to Jesus and commune, I can imagine the joy this must have brought to those in attendance. I also found Fr Martin’s words, “Pretty much everyone’s lifestyle is sinful. Unless the Blessed Mother shows up in the communion line, there is no one sinless in our church”, interesting to see.

 

[josh987654321]

While I know none of this changes things across the whole body of Catholicism, thank you for sharing this story, ComplineSanFran. Had you not shared this news, many of us might never have heard about it. I have similar thoughts especially that some in the group were married under the law of the land to their same sex partners and the cardinal still welcomed all to the table to receive Jesus with no questions asked. As someone whom the Catholic Church would not welcome to come as I am to Jesus and commune, I can imagine the joy this must have brought to those in attendance. I also found Fr Martin’s words, “Pretty much everyone’s lifestyle is sinful. Unless the Blessed Mother shows up in the communion line, there is no one sinless in our church”, interesting to see.

^^^

Need I say more?

Sy Noe, if it were possible, would you change the Churches teachings to approve of same sex marriage? and if that were to actually happen, why would you follow the Church? since it just changed it’s teachings to what you wanted so how can it be objectively true? How can you look to the Church for guidance when it’s teachings are up for grabs?

One can only be guided by a ‘fixed’ point. If the point one is guiding themselves off of is not fixed, there is no guidance and one may as well throw away the compass.

There is a saying that goes, something like ‘If God never disagrees with you, your probably just worshipping an idolized version of yourself’

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[reggieM]

If the Cardinal is in fact in on It, then he is a heretic. If not, what he did was scandalous and naïve by advocating the secular LGBT movement. As it would also be if it were the secular feminist movement because of some of the things they campaign for such as abortion and contraception.

It’s something to think about. There’s all sorts of victims of various things out there. And most importantly, the Church does not want to label people according to their sinful behavior. A homosexual is a man with a sinful tendency that he either acts on or doesn’t. But we don’t have celebrations for people who commit sins, or even who are tempted.
That’s a secular, worldly and actually an evil thing.
But there are other people who are victims also. Like people who are ridiculed for upholding the teaching of the Church?

 

[Sy_Noe]

^^^

Need I say more?

Sy Noe, if it were possible, would you change the Churches teachings to approve of same sex marriage? and if that were to actually happen, why would you follow the Church? since it just changed it’s teachings to what you wanted so how can it be objectively true? How can you look to the Church for guidance when it’s teachings are up for grabs?

One can only be guided by a ‘fixed’ point. If the point one is guiding themselves off of is not fixed, there is no guidance and one may as well throw away the compass.

There is a saying that goes, something like ‘If God never disagrees with you, your probably just worshipping an idolized version of yourself’

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Nope I don’t seek to change the Catholic Church’s teachings.

 

[reggieM]

There is a saying that goes, something like ‘If God never disagrees with you, your probably just worshipping an idolized version of yourself’

Awesome!
I’ve never heard that one before. It definitely rings true!

 

[ComplineSanFran]

^^^

Sy Noe, if it were possible, would you change the Churches teachings to approve of same sex marriage?

Well, Josh, that is kind of a moot point since Sy Noe doesn’t have the capability or the authority to change anything in the Church. On the other hand, Cardinal Tobin DOES.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Well, Josh, that is kind of a moot point since Sy Noe doesn’t have the capability or the authority to change anything in the Church. On the other hand, Cardinal Tobin DOES.

Yes I found the question posed to me a rather strange one indeed.

 

[po18guy]

What is so special about those who choose a particular sin? How about gamblers, drug addicts and thieves? Are we in Orwell’s Church in which all are equal, except that some are more equal than others?

All who partake in a state of mortal sin eat and drink damnation unto themselves. Does not matter which mortal sin they choose to indulge themselves in. This is a clear teaching for 2,000 years. It is not flexible.

Before liberal knees jerk (or is it too late?), please read the applicable sections of the catechism regarding those whose cross to bear is same sex attraction.

 

[mdgspencer]

According to the view of Catholicism through the centuries, all sex outside of marriage is objectively a mortal sin.
Also the Church has always taught that marriage can only occur between the sexes, so that “gay marriage” is a fake marriage, People in same-sex marriages also aren’t married. Inviting them to communion in a Catholic church is a serious abuse.
Hopefully, the next Pope will deal with such a situation.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Heresy.

This is like welcoming a modern day feminist movement, but not saying anything about the crime of abortion, when people are wearing PP shirts and are supporters and advocates of abortion and contraception, it’s scandalous to say the least, heresy if they secretly support such things and sacrilege if they receive communion while doing so.

:dts: Heresy.

“I do not think that word means what you think it means”

So it’s not just about people, but acts too, it’s not just about going to Mass, but receiving communion too. And no doubt they have the same view with adulterous relationships.

The formers are correct (They are welcome, and they can go to Mass, Sodomy is a real sin though, marriage is between a man and a woman until death do they part and if one is not repentant of sin, or are in protest of Church teaching, they should not receive communion), the latters are heresy and sacrilege.

I cannot tell what are the antecedents of *“formers” *and *“latters” *so I cannot tell if you are using the word correctly here or not?

:twocents:
tee

 

[tee_eff_em]

Well, Josh, that is kind of a moot point since Sy Noe doesn’t have the capability or the authority to change anything in the Church. On the other hand, Cardinal Tobin DOES.

No, I don’t think he does*. Not on his own authority.

(* With the exception of any role he would have in conclave)

tee

 

[graciew]

According to the view of Catholicism through the centuries, all sex outside of marriage is objectively a mortal sin.
Also the Church has always taught that marriage can only occur between the sexes, so that “gay marriage” is a fake marriage, People in same-sex marriages also aren’t married. Inviting them to communion in a Catholic church is a serious abuse.
Hopefully, the next Pope will deal with such a situation.

Invited to Mass…
We often forget that there is a continuous flow of persons who do not know…whatever. We take for granted everybody knows this or that…
Though there is nothing I can say about this event in particular, we increase our awareness .
It is more of a movie than a static photo.
We grow in awareness.
We can repent of what we are aware of and we are instructed at the same time, every Mass about the Gospel. And we grow.
What happens when we go to Reconciliation? We confess to the fullest of our awareness and capacity. We are not measured to any saint…
So letting ourselves and others get closer to God is what the Church has done throughout. How can we learn if not?
New challenges,and renewed efforts .
That is how I see this at least…

 

[ThundersnowIV]

What’s actually happening, is these people are seeking to ‘change’ Church teaching to their desires. They think Pope Francis is some progressive and the overturning of the Churches 2000 year old teachings on marriage and the family (incl. other issue like abortion or contraception) is coming, that they are going to “get with the times” and that Cardinals like this are in agreement and working for these changes and such events are more proof/confirmation of this.

They are not all repentant, many are waiting and working for change. If the Cardinal is in fact in on It, then he is a heretic. If not, what he did was scandalous and naïve by advocating the secular LGBT movement. As it would also be if it were the secular feminist movement because of some of the things they campaign for such as abortion and contraception.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

The problem is that some of Pope Francis’ statements have lead to confusion.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Well, Josh, that is kind of a moot point since Sy Noe doesn’t have the capability or the authority to change anything in the Church. On the other hand, Cardinal Tobin DOES.

Actually, Cardinal Tobin does not have that authority.

 

[mikekle]

. .also there is no ‘shift’ in the Church such as is implied by the media.

Catholics who know the church are already aware of this, but things like this are directed at outsiders…and its working. I have seen numerous FB postings that are calling attention to things the Pope has said and twisting it to fit their agenda, and 10s of 1000s if not more are believing it, the comments are saying things like “Great, its about time the church comes around”.

It may not be true, but a whole lot of people are being led to believe it is, so the damage is already done in that regard, and it makes matters worse when the church will not come out and address this specifically, (wanting to avoid a conflict), but not clarifying a statement or church doctrine can lead to all kinds of problems, even if they are not accurate.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Actually, Cardinal Tobin does not have that authority.

From my understanding, Cardinal Tobin has the friendship and ear of the Pope. He is an advisor. He sits on committees that effect what the Church is grappling with and how it responds. He is a man who puts his beliefs into action because he can, by the authority that he carries.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Catholics who know the church are already aware of this, but things like this are directed at outsiders…and its working. I have seen numerous FB postings that are calling attention to things the Pope has said and twisting it to fit their agenda, and 10s of 1000s if not more are believing it, the comments are saying things like “Great, its about time the church comes around”.

It may not be true, but a whole lot of people are being led to believe it is, so the damage is already done in that regard, and it makes matters worse when the church will not come out and address this specifically, (wanting to avoid a conflict), but not clarifying a statement or church doctrine can lead to all kinds of problems, even if they are not accurate.

Thank you for these words. Do you think that when people such as Cardinal Tobin open the doors (and the Table) to our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, it sets a precedence, regardless of teaching? Perhaps next time, Cardinal Cupich will do something similar in Chicago? And then San Diego, and then who knows? Sometimes the law lags behind what is happening in the pews and in our communities.

 

[meltzerboy]

What was extraordinary? I see these things:

That the Cardinal and fellow clergy worked with organizations such as Dignity and New Ways Ministry to create a Mass specifically for gay men and women.

That the Cardinal spoke to them and said that they were welcome without judgement, but calling them as they are - gay men and women. NOT as ‘Same-sex attracted’ men and women. (That has been a big talking point with Jim Martin and his new book.)

That the Mass was open communion. No questions asked.

That the men and women attending were, in many cases, married to their partners. In other words, sexually active men and women attended and received communion.

That the Cardinal got a lot of criticism and push back from fellow Church members. He is staying his ground.

That the Mass symbolized a door opening for a significant population of Catholics who have felt anything but ‘welcome’ in the RCC.

Those are my thoughts on reading the piece in the NYTimes and hearing friends and colleagues who are talking about this a LOT.

If what you say is correct, this is indeed a BIG DEAL, not only for these LGBT people but for this Cardinal, who may be opening himself up to severe reprimand from the Vatican.

 

[Sy_Noe]

What is so special about those who choose a particular sin? How about gamblers, drug addicts and thieves? Are we in Orwell’s Church in which all are equal, except that some are more equal than others?

All who partake in a state of mortal sin eat and drink damnation unto themselves. Does not matter which mortal sin they choose to indulge themselves in. This is a clear teaching for 2,000 years. It is not flexible.

Before liberal knees jerk (or is it too late?), please read the applicable sections of the catechism regarding those whose cross to bear is same sex attraction.

Not to derail the thread but since you brought up other sins and equality, your post highlights something I am actually struggling with. Lets say a priest were to be caught on camera and charged with shoplifting. At first he pleads innocence. Then later while still not confessing, he nevertheless accepts a guilty plea deal of restitution, probation, a class and counseling. If he accepted the plea deal while still not confessing and admitting his guilt, why would he be someone I would want to be preaching to me and partaking in the Holy Eucharist?