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philipl
Guest
He can welcome anyone he likes, what he cant do is change God’s judgement. If homosexual behavior is sinful then it will always be sinful and always was sinful. No exception either way.
As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’
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StudentMI
Guest
You’re comparing gay people to a violent alcoholic who tries to rape someone?
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Maybe that would explain why 62% of regular Mass attenders in the US said in this poll that the church should permit the use of birth control. Back when I attended though I don’t recall seeing 62% remaining in their seats and not in the communion line.
pewforum.org/2013/03/18/us-catholics-happy-with-selection-of-pope-francis/
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Tis_Bearself
Patron
If your friend is either (a) alcoholic, which is a disease and/or (b) a budding rapist, which is what your post suggests, he has got serious problems that do not involve “seeking the truth about drinking”. Being gay is not on the same level as having a disease and/or criminal tendencies.
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Peter_J
Guest
I don’t know the person whose post you quoted, but reading it I don’t see a comparison but questions and hypotheticals without any specified connection to the topic of this thread.
But then, Internet discussion forums have always seemed like bizarre unpredictable places to me, so maybe I should just stop talking now.
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St_Francis
Guest
An adulterer comes to the priest and says, I have a mistress and I don’t want to give her up: hopefully the priest will not say, fine! come as you are! Have Communion with us!
No, hopefully the priest will say, you are welcome to come, but you are in grave sin and receiving Communion could bring condemnation on your soul. But please keep coming and learn more about the Faith and pray with us.
The difference is that currently, there are no celebratory groups for adulterers. They do not have special symbols and scarves, nor do they suggest that they should be granted special rights or “accepted” *despite *their sin.
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StudentMI
Guest
Where does their sin begin? In neutral desires they can’t control, or the act which is disordered in regards to union and procreation?
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Peter_J
Guest
Thank you for bring that back on topic.
FWIW I’ve gotten the impression (I put that qualifier in because I haven’t spoken to enough gay Catholics to say this with certainty) that sometimes when a gay Catholic “comes out” to his or her priest, the priest is a little too quick to tell him or her to join a twelve-step program, or even does so in a way that comes across as dismissive.
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StudentMI
Guest
Amen to that. Luckily it was not my experience but I have met gay Catholics who got that treatment.Thank you for bring that back on topic.
FWIW I’ve gotten the impression (I put that qualifier in because I haven’t spoken to enough gay Catholics to say this with certainty) that sometimes when a gay Catholic “comes out” to his or her priest, the priest is a little too quick to tell him or her to join a twelve-step program, or even does so in a way that comes across as dismissive.
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St_Francis
Guest
Let me first point out that I was responding to the the article someone linked, which was discussing the difference between ways people are approaching the Church. Do they approach with the idea that the sins they are committing and wish to continue committing should be “accepted”? I wanted to point out that those wishing to continue committing the sin are told (or certainly ought to be told
) to refrain from receiving Communion, just as those engaging in and wishing to continue to engage in homosexual activity ought to be told, both to protect our Lord from profanation and to protect their souls from condemnation.As to your question, this is a very important question, not just for sexual issues but for any temptation, which any desire to commit sin is. All too often we talk about sinful desires without defining what we mean by that term.
What happens is that people are tempted to sin: a desire to commit a sinful act appears in their mind. Remember that this can happen through the influence of the flesh, the world, or the devil.
So the idea to eat an entire chocolate cake may appear in my mind. I may think of it as I am at the balery buying bread. I may think of it as I watch a tv commercial. Or it may float across my imagination as I get ready to pray the Rosary, which the devil would like to keep me from doing.
Any of the above *is not sinful. *What makes it sinful is if I *give in *to the temptation: when I *notice *I have started thinking about it seriously (wondering if I can get an entire cake past my children without their noticing it, if I can keep my husband from knowing I am eating the whole chocolate cake) *and instead of stopping the line of thinking I continue. *
This is what Christ was talking about when He said: “But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (St Matthew 5:28)
This in the context of those suffering with SSA, merely *having *this attraction is not sinful. The problem is when they give into the temptations, either in thought or in deed. Those who marry a member of the same sex are at a minimum causing scandal, since it is assumed that they are having sex. Those who publicize their SSA in a “celebratory” way are trying to convince others that what is sinful is not sinful, that evil is good, and this too is wrong as well as indicative that they themselves are engaging in the sinful acts they “celebrate.”
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St_Francis
Guest
Ahhh, this may be for one of several reasons: 1. the priest feels completely unable to help the person with this problem, 2. the priest may be afraid of getting too close to a man with SSA, as there are stories of people making false accusations, or 3. the priest may suffer these tendencies himself and so feel tempted by this type of discussion.Thank you for bring that back on topic.
FWIW I’ve gotten the impression (I put that qualifier in because I haven’t spoken to enough gay Catholics to say this with certainty) that sometimes when a gay Catholic “comes out” to his or her priest, the priest is a little too quick to tell him or her to join a twelve-step program, or even does so in a way that comes across as dismissive.
Perhaps some special training in this area would help improve the situation for those who come in to discuss this problem.
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St_Francis
Guest
Here is further explanation:
The more persistent the temptation, the clearer it is that you have not given consent to it. “It is a good sign,” says St. Francis de Sales, “when the tempter makes so much noise and commotion outside of the will, for it shows that he is not within.” An enemy does not besiege a fortress that is already in his power, and the more obstinate the attack, the more certain We may be that our resistance continues.
- Your fears lead you to believe you are defeated at the very moment you are gaining the victory. This comes from the fact that you confound feeling with consent, and, mistaking a passive condition of the imagination for an act of the will, you consider that you have yielded to the temptation because you felt it keenly.
by Fr. Quadrupani*Light and Peace *
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
Peter, I am not dismissing you or your experience, but perhaps your comment reflects part of the difficulty here. “I haven’t spoken to enough gay Catholics…”
So it seems that you and perhaps many others are speaking hypothetically, which is very different from the day to day realities of LGBTQ men and women who are Catholic, either practicing or marginalized. It is a very different discussion when this is NOT hypothetical in the least bit, but rather is about you, someone you love, or someone in the next pew over.
I live in San Francisco. Every other person you meet here is gay. It’s normal. Gay men and women and their families are a part of every day life. My parish is predominantly gay; my priest is gay; my friends are gay; my colleagues are gay. The checkers at Safeway are gay. Some are single; some are married; some are parents; some are aging and worrying about who’s going to care for them. They are the people next door.
And our churches having gay members isn’t true for only non-Catholic churches but the Catholic parishes and schools here have gay members, some with families, and they have gay priests too. It’s totally normal here.
I also know that in the Episcopal church (which I can only speak of because I know it from the inside), we have many former Catholics who do not feel welcome in their own denomination. Some are former priests. Most are just men and women who are welcome at our table and not so much at yours.
So what I am trying to get across here is that we are speaking about real people who are living their lives day to day, going to work, going to church, having a husband or wife, and loving God. “They” are not hypothetical. “They” are your brothers and sisters in Christ.
OK, I’m done.
(But one more thing… 12-step program??? Really??? You think someone who is gay should be - or IS being - told to go to a 12-step program? Lordy.)
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Sy_Noe
Guest
While I live on the other end of the country from San Francisco and honestly I have no idea how many people I meet who are gay, this post was still nevertheless outstanding! :clapping:
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St_Francis
Guest
But why do they not feel welcome at a Catholic church? Might it not be because the Church holds to the perennial teaching that homosexual acts are wrong?
There is a fundamental opposition between the Church and the “celebratory” homosexual: this conflict is bound to cause a problem. Why would such a homosexual want to practice a faith which continually (if not overtly) reminds him that he is committing grave sin? Why would such a homosexual care what the Catholic Church believes about homosexual behavior?
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I thought the same. Let’s not be too hard on the priests. They are expected to handle, and handle very well, a huge variety of human situations, many of which they may never have been exposed to before, and as humans themselves they bring their own set of biases and internal feelings, and most are not trained in psychology or counseling. I realize this doesn’t make it any easier on the gay person, but rest assured that there are also a lot of heterosexual situations which one might bring to a priest and get a less than helpful response for the same reasons.
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at9009
Guest
So this is the part of the issue. There are gay people who adhere to a sexual ethic that marriage is between a man and a woman. Yet, for a lot of us, the church still doesn’t feel like a place I can be open about my cross for a myriad of reasons. While the church teaching recognizes the difference between inclination and acts, a lot of lay Catholics don’t. A lot have this culture war mentality of US vs THEM and ‘the GAYS’ are always the them (especially in our hyperpolitical world recently).
Also, why not invite gay people to church, worship (while learning the Catholic faith, just to be clear obviously if not in a state of grace or Catholic should abstain from communion), and let the spirit with patience/prayer from you bring them to a Catholic belief.
It is difficult for a person to accept a Catholic viewpoint. It is extremely hard for a gay person because there is a lot of misunderstanding of Catholic teaching (including some due to poor practice of our faith by other Catholics). A lot still say homosexuality = sin without distinguishing between actions and inclination. A lot still view the attractions as a choice. Some other Christians seem to want to view ‘the GAYS’ as the source of all that is wrong in society and make them into the enemy. So, if we do not take the time to meet them where they are, show them what our faith really means, many will never attempt to learn because they see the church as what it is not. We also live in a world that idolatrizes romantic relationships (including by a lot of Christians). So, a gay person is seemingly given the choice of either not live the Catholic faith, find someone, and live with that person or join the church be alone and without love. Additionally, when a lot of Catholics (not saying you to be clear) do not give much charity or support for this gay person trying to live the Catholic faith (rather have the attitude of don’t let the door hit you on the way out), it is not surprising a lot of them give up after losing hope.
Why not try to show them the Catholic faith, by living our faith in its truth they will see something and it will plant a seed in their hearts. Show them that though a life in the church though may mean a celibate life it doesn’t mean one alone and without love (just not romantic love). Let our parish become true fellowship of brothers and sisters in Christ. A family united by the sacrifice of Christ for all of us. If we can manage that, a lot of people struggling with various Catholic teachings whether it be gay/ssa people, divorced people, etc. would have a support to lean on when facing their trials and tribulations. We all need a Simon in our life at times to help with our cross.
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reggieM
Guest
You’re making a sweeping statement here that is false.
You’re saying that “our desires are not evil”.
But of course our desires can be good or evil. If I desire to murder someone, that is not only a sin but it’s the basis of pre-meditated murder.
Now, you might be saying “homosexual desires” are not evil - they’re just neutral.
Well, if they’re unconscious desires or orientations - yes, they’re just physio-emotional movements. But anybody who identifies himself as a homosexual has gone beyond that unconscious stage. The desire has become part of the identity.
Regarding wanting sex - well, lust is not confined to homosexuals. We are not permitted to lustfully want to fornicate at all (and that’s what gay sex is anyway).
Jesus teaches us: “If a man looks on a woman with lust he has already sinned with her”.
So, I understand your interest in eliminating guilt where it should properly be eliminated - that is good and helpful. But when this extends beyond to a conscious desire for homosexuality, then that is not helping anyone since it is not true to say there is nothing evil there.
It’s these kinds of distinctions that need to be made.
You’re assuming that by telling someone the truth about something, this would never inspire them to seek the truth and that it will harden their hearts. Is it better to tell them a lie in order for them to seek the truth?
Now, I could agree with one thing there, I “am not doing anything”.
Yes, Our Lord’s command to us is not merely to talk about things - but we have to pray first. We have to be close to Him, filled with the Holy Spirit.
When that happens, we can truly say “it is not me speaking but the grace of God” - our words will have the power of the Holy Spirit.
Most people either deny that or find it impossible to believe. But if you think you can change people by your words alone, then that is blocking the power of God.
It is His role to change hearts. We can plant the seeds and teach the Good News, but He does the rest.
I gave you the example of St. Stephen the Martyr. Did he disclaim responsibility for his own actions when the Jews hardened their hearts against him? They got so angry they killed him. Should that have been avoided by not telling them the truth?
We all have different callings and different roles to play. The priest is called to proclaim the Gospel truth, as best he can. Sure, as St. Paul says, he can give “milk” of doctrine to the infants in faith - making Catholic teaching simpler. No everybody can handle the fullness of everything.
But the danger we run into today is that nobody ever wants to tell the complete truth about the matter, at any time.
Cardinal Tobin claimed that he was just welcoming and greeting, but then “we can talk later” - meaning, we can point out the moral problems that homosexuality has.
That’s fine - certainly the first words out of our mouth when encountering a gay person is not that they’re in sin.
But the point here is that eventually, that has to be said. Cardinal Tobin claimed he would do that. But experience shows that it is only very rarely when there is a teaching session that will correct the false impression given that homosexuality is now “ok” - since we’re living in the Church of Pope Francis now, etc.
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ToeInTheWater
Guest
First of all, my hat is off to the gay Catholics here who commit themselves to live out Church teaching knowing this will result in backlash both from “gay activists” and Catholics who apparently think it is sinful to even identify as gay and so demand you give up a core part of your identity as a price of entry.
It is not that simple. The bloggers at the Spiritual Friendship site do indeed publicize their SSA and are certainly not ashamed of it, many of Eve Tushnet’s work I find to be even “celebratory” of her orientation yet she does not “celebrate” the acts.
Hopefully I will not offend gay people with this example, but many alcoholics, even those who have abstained from alcohol for years, will go to AA meetings and state “I am an alcoholic”. Is that a sin, too, to identify as an alcoholic, even if you are not drinking? And while the Church doesn’t teach that drinking alcohol is a sin, it DOES teach that drunkenness is a sin, and most alcoholics have an inclination to not only drink but to get drunk. So should we come up with some other term for being an alcoholic, such as “intoxicating beverage attraction”?
ETA: And to make this even more simple: It is a sin to sin, but it is NOT a sin to identify as a sinner, is it? Or should we say we are all sin-attracted, instead?
No, that is not necessarily the case. And you are jumping from people “celebrating SSA” (the attraction) to “celebrating sinful acts”, as if they come yoked together and it is impossible to celebrate the orientation without celebrating the acts.
It is not that simple. The bloggers at the Spiritual Friendship site do indeed publicize their SSA and are certainly not ashamed of it, many of Eve Tushnet’s work I find to be even “celebratory” of her orientation yet she does not “celebrate” the acts.
So it is a sin to identify as a homosexual? Or do you believe the whole “there is no such thing as a homosexual person” angle, even though the Pope himself uses the word “homosexual”?
Ironic that you state this, when you yourself are not bothering to make a distinction between “homosexuality” as a inclination and “homosexuality” as a practice. You seem to be using the latter definition, for how can you have a desire to have a desire?
But is it the truth that “it is a sin even to identify as a homosexual” even though you and many other are claiming that is the Church position?
And again you use the word “homosexuality” without differentiating between “inclination to commit homosexual acts” and “actually engaging in such acts”.
Hopefully I will not offend gay people with this example, but many alcoholics, even those who have abstained from alcohol for years, will go to AA meetings and state “I am an alcoholic”. Is that a sin, too, to identify as an alcoholic, even if you are not drinking? And while the Church doesn’t teach that drinking alcohol is a sin, it DOES teach that drunkenness is a sin, and most alcoholics have an inclination to not only drink but to get drunk. So should we come up with some other term for being an alcoholic, such as “intoxicating beverage attraction”?
ETA: And to make this even more simple: It is a sin to sin, but it is NOT a sin to identify as a sinner, is it? Or should we say we are all sin-attracted, instead?
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