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i’m just sayin in the context that fulton sheen said it “Buddha even knew about Christ he on his deathbed said in about 200 years someone will come greater than i”

Fulton Sheen
Life is worth living second series
If Fulton Sheen was referencing Metteya (Maitreya in Sanskrit) he was mistaken about the prophecy.

The Buddha never predicted a specific date for the arrival of Metteya. He said that a new self-awakened one will arise after all memory of Buddhism has been lost and introduce the dhamma to the world. Certainly that time has not come. All self awakened Buddhas are equal therefore, Metteya will not be greater than the Buddha of 480-400 BCE.

The last words believed to be spoken by the Buddha on his death bed were, “Now, then, monks, I exhort you: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful.”
 
Actually, St. Thomas Aquinas didn’t hold a position too different than this, although he came to a different conclusion. He held that aborting a fetus prior to a certain period of time was not homicide. He did believe that doing so was a mortal sin, but that it was the sin of contraception rather than the sin of homicide.
This is correct. However this was a position based on the current scientific understanding of the time. There was no method of telling when a child was alive except when it actually was felt moving in the womb of the mother.

It was a logical conclusion to come to at the time that there was no life prior to this.

We now know, thanks to modern science that that is definitely not the case.

Aquinas was proved incorrect on this assertion by advances in science.
The quotes in the previous posts were from a modern monk attempting to figure out a very technical matter of consciousness. It was not a quote from the Buddha.
Since there is not an “infallible Pope” in Buddhism and no dogma in the way it is understood by Catholics, speculation is not a problem. If you had followed the entire link, you would have seen that other monks disagree with Ajahn Bram in his interpretation of the arising of consciousness.
The actual teachings of the Buddha are presented in my post on the First Precept and on the Vinaya (monks rules) where any monk or nun facilitating or recommending abortion is expelled from the order.
AdamPeter, as for your reluctance to follow the teachings of the Buddha, I think you would be reluctant regardless of any stand on abortion.
Does the fact that there is no specific teaching or authority and that the faith not make it something that is merely adjustable to an individual or changeable as time goes by.

And you woud be correct if you mean that I would be reluctant to accept any faith that had scope for abortion in it…
 
This is correct. However this was a position based on the current scientific understanding of the time. There was no method of telling when a child was alive except when it actually was felt moving in the womb of the mother.

It was a logical conclusion to come to at the time that there was no life prior to this.

We now know, thanks to modern science that that is definitely not the case.

Aquinas was proved incorrect on this assertion by advances in science.
There were tests for pregnancy well before Aquinas. This is from an article called Pregnancy in Ancient Times.
It appears that a test for pregnancy was available that was 70% accurate. groundreport.com/Business/Ancient-Egyptian-grain-based-pregnancy-test-found-/2909370
“If the barley seeds sprout or grow, it means a male child will be born. If the wheat sprouts and thrives, it means a female child will arrive in a few months. If the barley and wheat grains never sprout and grow when a woman urinates on the grain seeds, the woman is not pregnant and therefore, will not give birth this time around. That part of the test that’s 70% accurate is when either type of grains actually sprout and thrive when urinated upon by a pregnant woman, even in the earliest stages of pregnancy.
Archaeologists actually tested the ancient Egyptian medicinal folklore in 1963. They had pregnant women do the test and found it to be 70 percent accurate.”
From this article titled,* From “Piss Prophets” to Rabbits A History of the Pregnancy Test*randomhistory.com/1-50/018pregnancy.html
“Hellenic pregnancy tests are essentially identical to Greek practice, and it can be surmised that Egyptian medical practice reached the Romans through Sicilian Greek colonies. Galen (A.D. 129-200 or 216), a prominent physician in Asia Minor (present-day Turkey), accepted the description of Hippocratic pregnancy tests, and his work had a lasting influence on the transference and application of testing in the Middle Ages.”
Finally many women could tell they were pregnant by symptoms that appear in the very first days or weeks of pregnancy. This is from an article titled, Symptoms of pregnancy: What happens right away
mayoclinic.com/health/symptoms-of-pregnancy/PR00102/
The earliest symptoms of pregnancy can appear in the first few weeks after conception. Here’s what you may experience, from nausea and tender breasts to dizziness and mood swings.
The science of pregnancy tests were not as accurate as they are today but 70% accurate was still good and the tests were easily done. Of course symptoms themselves indicate pregnancy as well.
 
I think I may be the first Buddhist to officially be on this site, so I thought it might be cool to do a forum for people to ask any questions to clear up any questions or possible misconceptions about Buddhism.

Just as a little disclaimer, I am a lay Buddhist, but I think I should be strong enough in my understanding (or at least have enough reference materials) to answer any questions you may have. I will answer from a general perspective and from that of the Theravada sect(The one I follow.)
Bak,

I am sure that you saw you are not the first Buddhist…however you may be the first to proclaim you are the first Buddhist to officially be on this site. Records of the others would have to be checked.

What is the sound of one hand clapping?
 
This is correct. However this was a position based on the current scientific understanding of the time. There was no method of telling when a child was alive except when it actually was felt moving in the womb of the mother.

It was a logical conclusion to come to at the time that there was no life prior to this.

We now know, thanks to modern science that that is definitely not the case.

Aquinas was proved incorrect on this assertion by advances in science.

Does the fact that there is no specific teaching or authority and that the faith not make it something that is merely adjustable to an individual or changeable as time goes by.

And you woud be correct if you mean that I would be reluctant to accept any faith that had scope for abortion in it…
If you read the relevant sections in the Summa, you will find the question isn’t whether or not the fetus is alive, but rather what kind of soul there is (nutritive, sensitive, or intellectual.) and I don’t see how scientific advancement would inform us about the nature of the type of soul in an embryo at any given point in time (i.e. whether or not the early embryo has a sensitive soul as opposed to a nutritive soul).

The question doesn’t really matter from a Catholic point of view however, because early embryo abortion is a mortal sin either way, either as homicide or as contraception.
 
This is correct. However this was a position based on the current scientific understanding of the time. There was no method of telling when a child was alive except when it actually was felt moving in the womb of the mother.

It was a logical conclusion to come to at the time that there was no life prior to this.

We now know, thanks to modern science that that is definitely not the case.

Aquinas was proved incorrect on this assertion by advances in science.
Here is another interesting quote from the Angelic Doctor:
Moreover the embryo before it is perfected with the rational soul, has certain animate actions, namely growth, nourishment and sensation: and where there is animate action there is life: consequently it lives. Now the soul is the principle of life in a body: consequently it has a soul. But it cannot be said that it receives yet another soul: because then there would be two souls in one body. Therefore the soul which was from the beginning transmitted in the semen is the rational soul.
So Aquinas does believe that the embryo is alive from conception, but not that it has a rational soul from conception.
 
The persecution of Buddhists and the burning of the great library and residential university at Nalanda by the Muslim Turks in 1193 CE finished off Buddhism in India except for small areas of the south.
What really killed Buddhism in India AFAIK was the Muslims in the north and the Vaishavite and Shaivite revival in the south.
 
There were tests for pregnancy well before Aquinas. This is from an article called Pregnancy in Ancient Times. From this article titled,* From “Piss Prophets” to Rabbits A History of the Pregnancy Test*randomhistory.com/1-50/018pregnancy.html

Finally many women could tell they were pregnant by symptoms that appear in the very first days or weeks of pregnancy. This is from an article titled, Symptoms of pregnancy: What happens right away
mayoclinic.com/health/symptoms-of-pregnancy/PR00102/

The science of pregnancy tests were not as accurate as they are today but 70% accurate was still good and the tests were easily done. Of course symptoms themselves indicate pregnancy as well.
They had no scientific means of knowing how accurate or inaccurate the tests were. Also, tests of this nature couldn’t show anything of the complexity of human life, which is what my comments were regarding.
 
Here is another interesting quote from the Angelic Doctor:

So Aquinas does believe that the embryo is alive from conception, but not that it has a rational soul from conception.
That is fine…but Aquinas has been dead for over 700 years. Not all of his theological achievements have been approved by the catholic church.

The point I’m making is how can any faith without a central teaching authority be anything but relativistic. You may have some rules of behavior, but there is no constant structure.

People seem free to make up ideas and interpretations about various aspects of the faith.
 
They both come from India and they do have some ideas in common, but it is actually somewhat of a misconception that Buddhism developed out of Hinduism.

In the time of the Buddha, the religion that we would call modern Hinduism didn’t really exist yet. A more descriptive term would be to call it Vedism or Brahmanism. This system of belief was focused on the performance of various rituals and oblations as found in the Vedas, which remain the core religious texts for Hindus today, but the Hindu pantheon was a bit diferent. The main gods in the Hindu pantheon at that time was the sky god Indra and Agni, the god of the fire sacrifice.

Buddhism is not descended from this system of beliefs. It is descended from a diferent tradition in India that is sometimes refered to as the Shramanic tradition. This religious tradition stressed the importance of an ascetic lifestyle of mendicants who lived off of donations and gave up worldly attachments and practiced meditation. The Buddha adopted this type of lifestyle and Buddhism should be classified as a descendent of this ancient Shramanic tradition rather than being descended from Brahmanical Hinduism.

There are a lot of similarities between modern Hinduism and Buddhism, but a lot of this is due to the fact that the various Shramanic religions like Buddhism and Jainism had a strong influence on Hinduism, not because they came from Hinduism.
👍

The main god of the Vedic pantheon was Indra, the national god of the Vedic people. He was touted as the king of the gods (devas), the deity of the sky, thunderstorm and rain and the slayer of the serpent Vṛtra (who blocked the course of the rivers); he is also rather cocky and boisterous and likes to get drunk on soma. In other words, the Indian Zeus. Other gods (there were a lot of them, of course) include the fire god Agni, the accepter of sacrifices (i.e. the personification of the sacrificial fire) and thus, the bridge between men and the gods; Varuṇa, the supreme keeper of law and order of the universe (ṛta); his close companion Mitra (related to the Zoroastrian Mithra, who became the inspiration for the Greco-Roman Mithras), the god of honesty, friendship, contracts and meetings; the golden solar deity Savitr (one of the many Vedic solar gods); the Aśvins, the divine horse twins of Vedic mythology and physicians of the gods; Soma, the god of the eponymous beverage (the favorite drink of the Vedic gods which confers immortality, cf. the ambrosia of Greek mythology) and the plant from which it is derived; Dyava-pṛthvī, the couple who personify heaven and earth (incidentally, Dyaus and Pṛthvī are also said to be the mother and father of Indra, Agni, and Ushas - the dawn); Rudra, the storm personified, a dreaded, wrathful hunter who smites man and beast but also confers blessings upon them; his sons the Marutas, who also serve as attendants of Indra. Arthur Anthony Macdonell’s A Vedic Reader for Students (1917) goes into more detail here than I could.

When Hinduism grew out of the Vedic religion, many of the traditional Vedic gods either received an upgrade or a downgrade or even a change in status: Indra, for example, was ‘demoted’ in position as other gods came to the fore. While he was still nominally the king of the devas (which now has more of a connotation of ‘lower-class deities’ or ‘demigods’), he was no longer important as he once was. Mythology was also never kind to Indra: whereas the older legends preserved in the Vedas praised his prowess and his valiant deeds, in later texts the focus was seemingly on his negative traits like his affairs with different women or his being an all-around jerk (again, like Zeus ;)). Varuna, while he was more of a god of an abstract concept in Vedic mythology, became associated with water, and still is today. Savitr totally disappeared: he is only remembered today mainly because his name appears in the famous Gayatri mantra. Surya (another Vedic solar deity) de facto became the Hindu god of the sun in place of the Vedic sun gods. Rudra meanwhile apparently absorbed traits of other deities (as well as characteristics coming from other sources) and became the much-tamer Śiva (the ‘Auspicious’), Destroyer and ascetic-slash-householder. Viṣṇu, yet another minor solar deity whose main claim to fame in Vedic myth was assisting Indra in his campaign against Vṛtra and traversing the entire universe in three strides, became the Preserver and for the human devotees, very much Śiva’s rival for the title of supreme deity.

The shift from Brahmanism to Hinduism also introduced a change in thinking: whereas the Vedic religion was straight polytheism through-and-through, you have different strands of thinking within Hinduism ranging from monotheism, polytheism, panentheism, pantheism, monism, and atheism.
 
They had no scientific means of knowing how accurate or inaccurate the tests were. Also, tests of this nature couldn’t show anything of the complexity of human life, which is what my comments were regarding.
The tests were repeated in modern times and found to be 70% accurate. My post had a snip and link to this fact. There are also symptoms of pregnancy such as nausea and tenderness.

The test works and the symptoms present for the very reason that the embryo is alive. If the embryo was dead, the woman would miscarry.

Let me repeat, even at the time of Aquinas and all the way back to the Egyptians, women had fairly reliable ways to determine if they were pregnant in the early weeks of pregnancy. Confirmation of pregnancy was the stopping of the menses.
 
That is fine…but Aquinas has been dead for over 700 years. Not all of his theological achievements have been approved by the catholic church.

The point I’m making is how can any faith without a central teaching authority be anything but relativistic. You may have some rules of behavior, but there is no constant structure.

People seem free to make up ideas and interpretations about various aspects of the faith.
I know that. I was just bringing it up to show that the speculation followed by some Buddhists isn’t without precedent in Catholic thought.

Here is an interesting quote from MN 108 that should answer your question on authority:
“There isn’t any one monk appointed by the Blessed One — the one who knows, the one who sees, worthy & rightly self-awakened — [with the words] ‘He will be your arbitrator after I am gone,’ to whom we now turn.”
“… is there any one monk authorized by the Sangha and appointed by a large body of elder monks [with the words], ‘He will be our arbitrator after the Blessed One is gone,’ to whom you now turn?”
“No, brahman. There isn’t any one monk authorized by the Sangha and appointed by a large body of elder monks [with the words] ‘He will be our arbitrator after the Blessed One is gone,’ to whom we now turn.”
“Being thus without an arbitrator, Master Ananda, what is the reason for your concord?”
“It’s not the case, brahman, that we’re without an arbitrator. We have an arbitrator. The Dhamma is our arbitrator.”
It is the textual tradition which has been handed down throughout the ages which serves as the standard. The corpus of the Canon is actually very large and it addresses many different doctrinal points and disciplinary matters. It also covers the core principles of such matters. It is sufficient, provided that people actually care about it.

I think it is important to realize however that the teachings that are regarded as fundamental really aren’t nearly as expansive for Buddhism as it is for Catholicism. In Catholicism there are a lot of teachings which are absolutely essential for the faith and aren’t subject to theological speculation. For Buddhists however, the set of non-negotiables is far smaller, and so it is okay for people to interpret these non-essential matters differently because they are still within the spectrum of orthodoxy.

Sure, some people go outside this and make up crazy things, but they are a minority, and there is a similar problem among Catholics, too (Catholic Universities not being in accord with the teachings of the Church and other modernists) so that can’t be used to dismiss it.
 
👍

The main god of the Vedic pantheon was Indra, the national god of the Vedic people. He was touted as the king of the gods (devas), the deity of the sky, thunderstorm and rain and the slayer of the serpent Vṛtra (who blocked the course of the rivers); he is also rather cocky and boisterous and likes to get drunk on soma. In other words, the Indian Zeus. Other gods (there were a lot of them, of course) include the fire god Agni, the accepter of sacrifices (i.e. the personification of the sacrificial fire) and thus, the bridge between men and the gods; Varuṇa, the supreme keeper of law and order of the universe (ṛta); his close companion Mitra (related to the Zoroastrian Mithra, who became the inspiration for the Greco-Roman Mithras), the god of honesty, friendship, contracts and meetings; the golden solar deity Savitr (one of the many Vedic solar gods); the Aśvins, the divine horse twins of Vedic mythology and physicians of the gods; Soma, the god of the eponymous beverage (the favorite drink of the Vedic gods which confers immortality, cf. the ambrosia of Greek mythology) and the plant from which it is derived; Dyava-pṛthvī, the couple who personify heaven and earth (incidentally, Dyaus and Pṛthvī are also said to be the mother and father of Indra, Agni, and Ushas - the dawn); Rudra, the storm personified, a dreaded, wrathful hunter who smites man and beast but also confers blessings upon them; his sons the Marutas, who also serve as attendants of Indra. Arthur Anthony Macdonell’s A Vedic Reader for Students (1917) goes into more detail here than I could.

When Hinduism grew out of the Vedic religion, many of the traditional Vedic gods either received an upgrade or a downgrade or even a change in status: Indra, for example, was ‘demoted’ in position as other gods came to the fore. While he was still nominally the king of the devas (which now has more of a connotation of ‘lower-class deities’ or ‘demigods’), he was no longer important as he once was. Mythology was also never kind to Indra: whereas the older legends preserved in the Vedas praised his prowess and his valiant deeds, in later texts the focus was seemingly on his negative traits like his affairs with different women or his being an all-around jerk (again, like Zeus ;)). Varuna, while he was more of a god of an abstract concept in Vedic mythology, became associated with water, and still is today. Savitr totally disappeared: he is only remembered today mainly because his name appears in the famous Gayatri mantra. Surya (another Vedic solar deity) de facto became the Hindu god of the sun in place of the Vedic sun gods. Rudra meanwhile apparently absorbed traits of other deities (as well as characteristics coming from other sources) and became the much-tamer Śiva (the ‘Auspicious’), Destroyer and ascetic-slash-householder. Viṣṇu, yet another minor solar deity whose main claim to fame in Vedic myth was assisting Indra in his campaign against Vṛtra and traversing the entire universe in three strides, became the Preserver and for the human devotees, very much Śiva’s rival for the title of supreme deity.

The shift from Brahmanism to Hinduism also introduced a change in thinking: whereas the Vedic religion was straight polytheism through-and-through, you have different strands of thinking within Hinduism ranging from monotheism, polytheism, panentheism, pantheism, monism, and atheism.
What an excelent description of the Brahmanical practices of the Vedic period!
 
I see. I never knew Fulton Sheen said that. I believe he was probably making some reference to the prophecy of the prophecy of the Metteya.
Okay thanks for clarifying : )

Shalom
God bless
 
What an excelent description of the Brahmanical practices of the Vedic period!
I should add that Vedic mythology is not-so-organized (then again, we could say the same thing for other mythologies): I mentioned for example that Indra, Agni, and Uṣas are the offspring of Dyava-pṛthvī, but Indra (along with Varuṇa and Mitra) is also said to be one of the Ādityas, sons of the goddess Aditi, and Agni, being fire, is also described to be immortal - being reborn day after day - and is also said to be an offspring of either the waters (a Vedic water deity named Apām Napāt ‘grandson of waters’ is also sometimes described as a fire god - in fact, Agni and Apām Napāt are sometimes also conflated with one another) or two kindling sticks. Whilst they are the children of Dyauṣ and Pṛthvī and thus brother and sister, Uṣas and Agni are at times described as lovers (since the sacrificial fire is kindled during dawn), but Uṣas is also said to be the wife of Sūrya, whose path she opens.

There is also the issue of devas and asuras. Whereas in later Hinduism (and in Buddhism as well) the two groups are distinguished from one another, with the devas as being the ‘good’ low-tier gods and the asuras as their evil ‘demonic’ (although not exactly analogous to the Judaeo-Christian conception of what a demon is) rivals, there was still no such clear distinction in early Vedic religion. In fact, it would seem that asura was more of a designation for deities who preside over abstract moral and social concepts, while a deva is a deity who presides over natural phenomena. For example, Varuṇa, Mitra, and Aryaman (still another solar deity and one of the Ādityas, who presides over marriage oaths) are asuras, while Indra and Agni are devas. But even then, deities who are described as asuras in one instance are also called devas in another and vice versa (Indra, for example, was also called an asura and is said to have been given the asura power to slay Vṛtra!), so even this description is not totally accurate.

We can note an interesting similarity to Zoroastrianism here (not surprising since Vedism and Zoroastrianism share a common root, ultimately deriving from Proto-Indo-European religion - which is also the ancestor of Greco-Roman and Germanic paganism). In Zoroastrianism, the title ahura is applied to the gods (yazata) Ahura Mazda, Mithra (Vedic Mitra), and Apąm Napāt (also a water god like the Vedic version), while the term daeva is for deities that are to be rejected because they are misled by “the lie” (druj).

As for sacrificial rituals: the sacrificial act (yajna) performed by expert brahman priests served as the core of the Aryan religion. Oblations included ghee (clarified butter), milk, grains and soma (although when it no longer became available, a substitute), which are cast into the sacrificial fire with the chanting of hymns. Early Vedism also performed animal sacrifice: the most famous one is the Aśvamedha, the horse sacrifice which could only be conducted by a king. In this ritual, a horse was consecrated, and accompanied by the king’s kin and other warriors, allowed to roam where it would for a year (or half-year). Anyone who should stop the horse is ritually cursed, and wherever it trod, the sovereignty of its master must be proclaimed - hence, if it went into neighbouring provinces hostile to the sacrificer, they must be subjugated. At the end of the year, the horse, along with other animals, are bound onto stakes and then ritually slaughtered, and the chief queen then has to copulate (or mimic copulation) with the dead horse, while the other queens ritually utter obscenities. Finally, the horse’s flesh is then roasted and offered to the gods. At the conclusion of the sacrifice, the priests who performed the ritual are then rewarded with a part of the booty won during the wandering of the horse.

Another Vedic yajna is the Puruṣamedha (“human sacrifice”), which resembles the Aśvamedha in many respects, in that the people from all classes and of all descriptions were tied to the stake and offered to Prajāpati, the ‘lord of creatures’ and the Vedic god of procreation and life. While the Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa implies that the ritual was symbolic (since the victims are supposed to be released unharmed), many scholars theorize that human sacrifice did occur at an early stage before being disavowed.

By means of the Purusha Nârâyana (litany), the Brahman priest (seated) to the right (south) of them, praises the men bound (to the stakes) with this sixteen-versed (hymn, Rig-v. X, 90, Vâg. S. XXXI, 1-16), ‘The thousand-headed Purusha, thousand-eyed, thousand-footed…;’–thus (he does) for the obtainment and the securing of everything, for everything here consists of sixteen parts, and the Purushamedha is everything: in thus saying, ‘So and so thou art, so and so thou art,’ he praises and thereby indeed magnifies him (Purusha); but he also thereby speaks of him, such as he is. Now, the victims had had the fire carried round them, but they were not yet slaughtered,–

Then a voice said to him, ‘Purusha, do not consummate (these human victims): if thou wert to consummate them, man (purusha) would eat man.’ Accordingly, as soon as fire had been carried round them, he set them free, and offered oblations to the same divinities, and thereby gratified those divinities, and, thus gratified, they, gratified him with all objects of desire.
 
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