Ask a Pagan

[joe371]

Do you not realize the fallacy of that statement?

I mentioned earlier in this thread that my personal views are somewhere along the lines of kathenotheism/henotheism. For the record, not all religions make it their business to denounce other religions in order to feel to puff themselves up, nor need to malign other gods as “false” or fictional. I don’t follow every deity simply because they exist, but I don’t have need to negate them either. That doesn’t mean they’re “my” gods too. By your line of reasoning Odin or Zeus or Cernunnos is yours too, whether you accept them or like it or not because someone else insists they are.

As you say, everyone has a right to believe what they want. It’s quite another to be denigrating and bigoted.

I simply meant: in the end when we die, if you and I come face to face with Jesus then Jesus Christ is who he says he is, which means that he is your Christ too, even if you deny it on this side of eternity. Same goes for me if I see a pagan God(s) e.g. Odin or Zeus or Cernunnos. Again, I respect your right to reject him as fictional character. Everyone has a right to believe what they want…

 

[Kallisto]

Asking friends e.g. Muslims, Jews Buddhists etc., if there have been miracles worked…googling as well…Perhaps you know of some miracles??? They don’t have to be as obvious as Fatima.

Again, by whose criteria? Not all religions view “miracles” the same, that much is evident by googling religion name + miracles. And even if they discuss profound experiences, what evidence would you accept as equally empirical?

Even die-hard atheists working for O Século newspaper saw and believed, and wrote about it. Why not believe them?

Conversely why not believe those who are believers but did not perceive anything at all? Why not believe scientific evidence that nothing extraordinary occurred?

Religious fervor is your answer for believers. What’s your response regarding the scoffing non-believers?

I’ll politely suggest you re-read what I wrote instead of putting words in my mouth. I did not say all believers were in religious fervor. Where have I ever indicated that such only occurs with one religion?

I will check them out and see if they actually said that there were people who were at the Cova who saw nothing!

ok.

 

[Kallisto]

I simply meant: in the end when we die, if you and I come face to face with Jesus then Jesus Christ is who he says he is, which means that he is your Christ too, even if you deny it on this side of eternity. Same goes for me if I see a pagan God(s) e.g. Odin or Zeus or Cernunnos. Again, I respect your right to reject him as fictional character. Everyone has a right to believe what they want…

I was right with you up until you accused me again of stating he’s fictional. I don’t claim deities that I don’t worship are fictional.

 

[mlamg]

Thanks my bad.

Yes, it would have been helpful if you’d actually read #614, where I gave a very clear explanation to this question. Others have also already answered your questions numerous times. But if you prefer to just ask questions without bothering to read the answers, then by all means, stay as uninformed as you wish.

 

[mlamg]

I don’t know if you’re quoting someone or if that’s your own take on paganism, but it’s not correct. Not all pagans are polytheist for one thing. For another “natural forces as personified Gods” is not accurate either. Rather manifestations of their power, what they wield and hold dominion over. Zeus is not lightning, he wields it; Poseidon isn’t the oceans, it’s his realm.

No one god is no more “true” than another. The only distinction is through the believer. What your sacred text asserts as true is as wholly irrelevant to other gods and other religions as their sacred texts would be to you and yours. As for universal truths, if one looks beyond his own biases he’ll find they are universal in that they are found to parallel among various religions. No one religion holds the trademark on divinity or Truth.

 

[joe371]

I was right with you up until you accused me again of stating he’s fictional. I don’t claim deities that I don’t worship are fictional.

I did not accuse, I wrongly assumed. My apologies. So you actually believe that Jesus is a deity, of course, among other deities e.g. the pagan deities.

 

[mlamg]

Correct. Further it’s hypocrisy to say it’s “idolatry” when pagans have icons and statues, but somehow it’s not “idolatry” when Catholics have icons and statues.

Exactly. This is seen all the time on here. There is always lot of anger when Protestants accuse Catholics of being idolators, but Catholics have no problem calling Hindus and pagans idolators, LOL. Sure doesn’t do much for their credibility.

 

[mlamg]

There is only ONE TRUE GOD. According to the word of God the Father Almighty creator of heaven earth. Any other god is a false god.

I am the Lord your God there shall be no false gods before me.

…said a book. I’ve read lots of books, too, but I don’t believe them all.

 

[mlamg]

Rinnie, perhaps it would be helpful for you to slow down and carefully read the posts.

He didn’t say that Catholics pray or worship statues. He was agreeing with a previous poster that Pagans do not pray to or worship statues, and neither do Catholics, and that it’s hypocrisy to say that Pagans pray to statues when, presumably, they are employing statues and icons similarly to the way Catholics do, and neither worships statues.

Oh dear. :doh2:

Yes, in your faith. However he’s sharing what he believes.

LOL, I’m glad I’m not the only one getting aggravated.

 

[joe371]

Kallisto;10868857]Again, by whose criteria? Not all religions view “miracles” the same, that much is evident by googling religion name + miracles. And even if they discuss profound experiences, what evidence would you accept as equally empirical?

Simply stated: I want to know if miracles exist outside the Catholic Church, so that I can research them in the same way that I researched Fatima. That’s it. Evidence: eye-witness testimony!

Conversely why not believe those who are believers but did not perceive anything at all? Why not believe scientific evidence that nothing extraordinary occurred?

Please provide citations, for I cannot find anyone at the cova (eye-witness testimony) who claimed that nothing happened? What scientific evidence claims that nothing happened at the cove in Fatima?

I’ll politely suggest you re-read what I wrote instead of putting words in my mouth. I did not say all believers were in religious fervor. Where have I ever indicated that such only occurs with one religion?

I said:

“Religious fervor is your answer for believers.” Notice that I did not say all believers. What’s your response regarding the scoffing non-believers?

I don’t know what you are talking about here; I never said that:

Where have I ever indicated that such only occurs with one religion

 

[joe371]

Exactly. This is seen all the time on here. There is always lot of anger when Protestants accuse Catholics of being idolators, but Catholics have no problem calling Hindus and pagans idolators, LOL. Sure doesn’t do much for their credibility.

I agree with you.

 

[mlamg]

This makes no sense?

Satan wanting to destroy the messiah and His followers makes no sense to you? OK. I seriously doubt that anything said here by a catholic will be convincing to you. After all, we only talk about teachings promulgated by the CC. What else would anyone expect…

Um…no. What makes no sense is WHY God the all-powerful would need ANYONE ELSE to destroy Satan. If he wanted it done, he could do it RIGHT NOW, no questions asked.

 

[joe371]

Um…no. What makes no sense is WHY God the all-powerful would need ANYONE ELSE to destroy Satan. If he wanted it done, he could do it RIGHT NOW, no questions asked.

Yes, I agree that God could do that. Why God didn’t only God knows. No one on this side of eternity will ever have the answer, in my humble opinion. Perhaps God respects free will and therefore will not destroy His creation. I am only speculating:shrug:…

 

[mlamg]

Yes, I agree that God could do that. Why God didn’t only God knows. No one on this side of eternity will ever have the answer, in my humble opinion. Perhaps God respects free will and therefore will not destroy His creation. I am only speculating:shrug:…

Well, he supposedly killed all of creation once, except for an ark with a few humans and a bunch of animals, and killed lots of others of his creation.

Maybe Satan’s on his bowling team and has a higher average than him.

 

[joe371]

Fr. Stanley Jaki of Seton Hall University wrote about it in God & the Sun at Fatima that many did not see anything at all, while others who believed they saw something differed on what it was they saw. Prof. Auguste Meessen from the Catholic University at Leuven wrote in Apparitions and Miracles of the Sun that those what those who believed they saw something could be explained by optical effects caused by staring at the sun, and that such phenomena can’t be taken to be literal.

Will you please support the following statement with citations. I can’t find anything:

“Fr. Stanley Jaki of Seton Hall University wrote about it in God & the Sun at Fatima that many did not see anything at all, while others who believed they saw something differed on what it was they saw.”

I am reading reviews, because I don’t have the book, and I am not seeing either a denial or that many at the cova saw nothing…

 

[joe371]

Prof. Auguste Meessen from the Catholic University at Leuven wrote in Apparitions and Miracles of the Sun that those what those who believed they saw something could be explained by optical effects caused by staring at the sun, and that such phenomena can’t be taken to be literal.

Would you agree with the following excerpt found here (see link) regarding Meessen’s statement? I am not asking you to believe what I believe about Fatima; just the logic of the statement:

markmallett.com/blog/debunking-the-sun-miracle-skeptics/

"In the reports from eyewitnesses in Fatima, the miracle of the sun lasted not seconds, but minutes, and perhaps as long as “ten minutes.” Eyewitnesses stated that the clouds had broken and “the sun at its zenith appeared in all its splendor,” and so onlookers were staring directly at the sun. To stare at the bare sun at noon for even a minute—if that were even possible—would likely have been enough to cause permanent eye damage in at least a few people. But out of tens of thousands of people, there were no reports of a single person having incurred eye damage, let alone blindness. (On the other hand, this has occurred at some alleged Marian apparition sites where certain people have gone looking for a miracle).

Professor Meesen’s logic further falls apart by stating that the dancing effects of the sun were merely the result of retinal after-images. If that were the case, then the miracle of the sun witnessed at Fatima should be easily duplicated in your own backyard. In fact, to be certain, the thousands gathered that day would have looked up at the sun later that afternoon and in the days following to see if the miracle would repeat. If the “miracle” that October 13th was only the result of retinal images or “the bleaching of photosensitive retinal cells,” the skeptics and secular newspapers who had earlier been ridiculing the three shepherd children would surely have pointed this out. The aftermath of excitement would have quickly dissipated as people began to readily duplicate “retinal after-images.” The opposite is true. Eyewitnesses described the sight as a “prodigy,” something “incapable of describing,” and a “remarkable spectacle.” What is remarkable about something that one could easily duplicate an hour later?"

 

[mlamg]

Will you please support the following statement with citations. I can’t find anything:

“Fr. Stanley Jaki of Seton Hall University wrote about it in God & the Sun at Fatima that many did not see anything at all, while others who believed they saw something differed on what it was they saw.”

I am reading reviews, because I don’t have the book, and I am not seeing either a denial or that many at the cova saw nothing…

You can buy the book itself on Amazon.com. There is this for right now: mrobsr.blogspot.com/2010/04/miracle-at-fatima.html

 

[joe371]

You can buy the book itself on Amazon.com. There is this for right now: mrobsr.blogspot.com/2010/04/miracle-at-fatima.html

Thanks, I enjoyed reading it. The writer of the blog seems upset because the miracle was too prodigious. BTW, not sure why it would have been more impressive, as per the blogger, if they had told the crowd what was about to happen regarding the sun. The children simply did not know. Also, the meaning is not elusive, and, what was served was conversion and actual proof of God’s existence. It was more credible than individual miraculous cures. Although the blogger disagrees.

Blog excerpt:

"Jaki believes that the meteorological nature of the solar miracle does not detract from its miraculous character. Miracles in the Bible probably result from God working through natural laws rather than in violation of them.

So, too, Fatima. The proof of the miraculous nature of the October 13 event was that the child visionaries predicted there would be a miracle at the time they predicted. It was the reason tens of thousands of people had gathered in the Cova de Iria.** It would have been a bit more impressive had they said in advance that the miracle would involve the sun.** One of those present had expected the stars would become visible; another who witnessed the miracle didn’t realize it was supposed to be a miracle.

Still, one can’t deny there is an element of coincidence in the timing of this meteorological marvel that provokes an element of wonder. When one looks back on it though, the meaning is elusive. What is really served in a powerful being sending an illusion of the falling sun to terrify and inspire awe in a mass of faithful and unfaithful listeners to the message of Mary? Miraculous cures have a pragmatic dimension easier to revere. Whatever disagreements one may have with Jaki’s opinions, it must be said without reservation that this is a valuable state-of-the-art history of the solar miracle that has no peer. Anyone who writes about the Fatima solar miracle in the future without citing this book can be dismissed.

 

[Skadi]

Yes, I agree that God could do that. Why God didn’t only God knows. No one on this side of eternity will ever have the answer, in my humble opinion. Perhaps God respects free will and therefore will not destroy His creation. I am only speculating:shrug:…

But even there there is a problem, because if god is all knowing then he knew Lucifer would fall. The devil isn’t necessary for free will, so why create him in the first place? Of course I understand that we arn’t deitys and cannot think on a divine level but if he made the universe than the logic of it would follow his, and there dosnt seem to be an ounce of logic in him creating a being who is destined to fall and cause such a ridiculous amount of pain and suffering.

 

[joe371]

You can buy the book itself on Amazon.com. There is this for right now: mrobsr.blogspot.com/2010/04/miracle-at-fatima.html

Nothing about people at the cova seeing nothing. Perhaps you could provide a quote to support the notion that people saw nothing; something similar to this, which is valid, and from a 1917 secular newspaper:

“Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws—the sun ‘danced’ according to the typical expression of the people.” Avelino de Almeida, writing for O Século - Portugal’s most widely circulated and influential newspaper, which was pro-government and anti-clerical at the time.