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Isaiah45_9
Guest
What good is a tongue that none can understand…
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ltwin
Guest
Pentecostals don’t reject the Eucharist.
This is true, but it is sort of half the story. From an authentic Pentecostal perspective (as opposed to the quasi-Baptist dumbed down explanation you usually get), yes the elements are symbolic, but the presence of Christ is not. Yes, there is remembrance and there is also prophecy. It is both backward and forward looking. And finally, the Lord’s Supper is nourishment for our bodies and our souls. It is the Lord’s Supper that we can find healing for our diseases and infirmities.
Yes, he does tell us to discern the body of Christ in the Lord’s Supper. This is because, “anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.” It is a Pentecostal belief that those who partake without examining themselves and without understanding the spiritual realities they are encountering are placing themselves in physical harm.
“Symbolic” is not really a useful word when we talk about the Lord’s Supper, except for in reference to the actualy elements. On another thread, I’ve quoted actual Pentecostal ministers on the Lord’s Supper. I’ll reproduce it here:
D.W. Kerr, “The Message of the Sacrament.” The Weekly Evangel (28 October 1916), p. 4:
Faith can grasp mysteries that are unexplainable. Faith enters into a realm far beyond the sphere of understanding, and can extract the good and joy out of what soars high above our reasonings. We have no need to preach a doctrine of consubstantiation nor of transubstantiation; we just receive Jesus ’words and act on them. "Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life."
William A. Cox, “The Spiritual Import of the Lord’s Supper.” The Weekly Evangel (May 4, 1918), p. 8:
It (the Lord’s Supper) is not an empty service, it does not mean simply being served with a little bread and wine on the first Sunday of the month— it is a means of fellowship with God, through Jesus, by the Spirit, and we have a right to come to it expecting God to meet us. Indeed we have a right to expect to draw so near to God that whatever our need may be at that moment, whether spiritual or physical, He will supply it. . . . when we eat of the divine body of the Lord Jesus, the living Bread which came down from heaven. . . He quickens the spiritual man; He revives the physical; He heals our diseases, and gives us strength to live by. By eating Jesus, the Bread of life, we have life in our physical bodies. . . . if we eat the flesh of Jesus, and drink His blood, we shall live by Him. So when you want to be healed, just take a great big meal of Jesus.
Cecil B. Knight, “Communion: A Sign and a Seal.” Church of God Evangel (22 March 1971), p. 16-17:
There is deep spiritual meaning in the Lord’s Supper. The participant does not merely look at the symbols; he receives spiritual food. Just as the bread and the fruit of the vine will nourish and invigorate the body of man, so Christ, through Communion, sustains and quickens the soul. When a Christian truly worships Christ in the Lord’s Supper, he is ministered to by the Holy Spirit, thereby receiving strength and a deep abiding peace.
J. Roswell Flower, “The Lord’s Supper.” Word and Witness (August 1915), p. 5:
The Lord Jesus is brought very near in the observance of the Lord’s Supper. The redemptive work for the body is often attested to, as the communicants partake in faith, drinking His blood, and eating His flesh, the Lord healing them of sicknesses and delivering them of infirmities. Praise His precious name forever.
Faith can grasp mysteries that are unexplainable. Faith enters into a realm far beyond the sphere of understanding, and can extract the good and joy out of what soars high above our reasonings. We have no need to preach a doctrine of consubstantiation nor of transubstantiation; we just receive Jesus ’words and act on them. "Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life."
William A. Cox, “The Spiritual Import of the Lord’s Supper.” The Weekly Evangel (May 4, 1918), p. 8:
It (the Lord’s Supper) is not an empty service, it does not mean simply being served with a little bread and wine on the first Sunday of the month— it is a means of fellowship with God, through Jesus, by the Spirit, and we have a right to come to it expecting God to meet us. Indeed we have a right to expect to draw so near to God that whatever our need may be at that moment, whether spiritual or physical, He will supply it. . . . when we eat of the divine body of the Lord Jesus, the living Bread which came down from heaven. . . He quickens the spiritual man; He revives the physical; He heals our diseases, and gives us strength to live by. By eating Jesus, the Bread of life, we have life in our physical bodies. . . . if we eat the flesh of Jesus, and drink His blood, we shall live by Him. So when you want to be healed, just take a great big meal of Jesus.
Cecil B. Knight, “Communion: A Sign and a Seal.” Church of God Evangel (22 March 1971), p. 16-17:
There is deep spiritual meaning in the Lord’s Supper. The participant does not merely look at the symbols; he receives spiritual food. Just as the bread and the fruit of the vine will nourish and invigorate the body of man, so Christ, through Communion, sustains and quickens the soul. When a Christian truly worships Christ in the Lord’s Supper, he is ministered to by the Holy Spirit, thereby receiving strength and a deep abiding peace.
J. Roswell Flower, “The Lord’s Supper.” Word and Witness (August 1915), p. 5:
The Lord Jesus is brought very near in the observance of the Lord’s Supper. The redemptive work for the body is often attested to, as the communicants partake in faith, drinking His blood, and eating His flesh, the Lord healing them of sicknesses and delivering them of infirmities. Praise His precious name forever.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
This is fascinating to me. I always thought Pentecostals were more baptist/evangelical leaning…pure symbolism. Which Pentecostal denomination preached this?
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ltwin
Guest
That is not a Pentecostal doctrine. That is an example of “Old Time Holiness”, which some Pentecostals still adhere too. Have you ever seen photos of Tammy Faye Baker???
We can play cards. However, many Pentecostals, like some other Christians, object to gambling.
Premarital sex is never ok. If a person has done that and they are a Christian, the word for them is, “repent.”
Murder.
Up to you.
In the words of Jesus, “Go and sin no more.”
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ltwin
Guest
Most Pentecostals are not advocate of King James Onlyism. In fact, some Pentecostals have this love affair with the Message Bible. I think its a horrible idea to paraphrase the Bible.
Generally, you can read any translation you want. And the King James Version is hard to understand, and there are inaccuracies.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
Isn’t that reason enough to reject Pentacostalism!!!too. Have you ever seen photos of Tammy Faye Baker???
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ltwin
Guest
Baptists:
- Polity: Congregationalism
- Soteriology Strange mix of Arminian decision theology and hardcore preservation of the saints. You get baptized in the Holy Spirit at the moment you are “born again.”
- Baptism: It’s a big deal for them. They named their denomination after it. At the same time, they believe its an identification with Christ, not regeneration.
- Church atmosphere: Low church. Will look a lot like Pentecostal churches, but more subdued.
- Polity: Congregationalism to full blown Episcopal
- Soteriology: Arminian, with the possibility of falling away and committing apostasy. “Being born again” is different than being baptized in the Holy Spirit. The BHS comes after the new birth.
- Baptism: You may start shouting in the baptismal pool.
- Church atmosphere: Low church. A Baptist service on steroids. The music is usually better (of course I’m biased).
With fear and trembling. Confessing our sins, turning away from them, and continuing to strive for perfect submission and a greater fullness of the Spirit.
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ltwin
Guest
Yes.
No. It is a normative physical sign of the baptism in the Holy Spirit (which is about further empowerment for those who are already Christians).
Faith, repentance, faith, repentance, faith, repentance . . . . If you if have faith in a loving God whose kindness moves us to repentance (actual repentance), then we welcome you as a brother or sister in Christ.
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KingJohn
Guest
Still, thank you. Obviously many people had misconceptions about our denomination.
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ltwin
Guest
It is a form of prayer (public or private). Or it can be a form of teaching, revelation, prophecy, etc. Or it can be a form of song. When directed to the whole assembly, this should be interpreted. See 1 Corinthians 14, which tells you a lot about what speaking in tongues is used for.
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ltwin
Guest
Not optional. It is a command. However, it is not regenerative. It is not the new birth. In that sense, it is not a requirement to be a Christian. However, if we love Christ, we will do what he said to do. So, there should be no question about undergoing baptism.Thanks for the response!
Pentecostals believe Baptism is ‘optional?’ Please elaborate. That is something Jesus said to do.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Who interprets it? I never saw it interpreted, although I did see the pastor preaching (shouting) the whole time the “spirit” was present.
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KingJohn
Guest
What I meant was this: It is not a necessity to becoming saved.
Just because I’m not baptized does not mean I dislike Christ, either.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Why wouldn’t you be baptized? Wouldn’t that at least show a true love for Christ that may be lacking if you choose to disregard the teachings of Christ and the Apostles?
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4Squarebaby
Guest
However unlike Baptist most Pentecostal organzations will not require proof of water baptism by immersion before accepting you as a full member. As most are open and have former mainline Christians who have only had their parents get them baptised or members/raised Quakers or Salvationist who later join a Pentecostal congregation but have not step forward to be baptised.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
It sounds like you believe in once saved always saved which is not what I hear from ltwin. Is there such a vast range if teaching in Pentacostalism ??
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KingJohn
Guest
It’s not required for salvation. Yes, it may please Jesus, but at this point I’m not ready for Baptism. That doesn’t mean I hate him, neither does it mean I’m disobidient.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I do not see how that is remotely biblical.
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ltwin
Guest
Those with the gift of interpretation interpret it. OK, people, let me explain what Pentecostals refer to as “A Message in Tongues”, namely,
Church gathers. Church sings for about half an hour to an hour (maybe longer if someone got happy
). Suddenly, everyone in the congregation gets this familiar feeling that we’ve all learned by now means that we should “chill out” with all the singing or whatever we’re doing at that particular moment and just “wait on God.”We wait on God for a few seconds (really its not so much waiting on God as it is waiting on the person he’s told to give a message to get over whatever crisis of faith they are going through and just speak what God gave them to speak).
Once they get the nerve to actually speak out, all you hear is a message in tongues. Message lasts for a minute or longer. Afterwards, we all wait a little longer for the person that God gave the interpretation to just get over it already and do what God told them to do. They do this and it could sound something like this interpretation of a message in tongues about racial unity (bridging the divide between the white and black church in America):
"My sons and my daughters, look if you will from the heavenward side of things, and see where you have been‚ two, separate streams, that is, streams as at flood tide. For I have poured out of my Spirit upon you and flooded you with grace in both your circles of gathering and fellowship. But as streams at flood tide, nonetheless, the waters have been muddied to some degree. Those of desperate thirst have come, nonetheless, for muddy water is better than none at all.
My sons and my daughters, if you will look and see that there are some not come to drink because of what they have seen. You have not been aware of it, for only heaven has seen those who would doubt what flowed in your midst, because of the waters muddied having been soiled by the clay of your humanness, not by your crudity, lucidity, or intentionality, but by the clay of your humanness the river has been made impure.
But look. Look, for I, by my Spirit, am flowing the two streams into one. And the two becoming one, if you can see from the heaven side of things, are being purified and not only is there a new purity coming in your midst, . . . . .
My sons and my daughters, if you will look and see that there are some not come to drink because of what they have seen. You have not been aware of it, for only heaven has seen those who would doubt what flowed in your midst, because of the waters muddied having been soiled by the clay of your humanness, not by your crudity, lucidity, or intentionality, but by the clay of your humanness the river has been made impure.
But look. Look, for I, by my Spirit, am flowing the two streams into one. And the two becoming one, if you can see from the heaven side of things, are being purified and not only is there a new purity coming in your midst, . . . . .
After the message/interpretation is given, the church praises God for speaking to the congregation. And then we return to our regular scheduled programming.
K
KingJohn
Guest
…You sir are becoming quite the critic.
I’ve said this once, I’l say it again, PLEASE read this time.
I believe that if you’re born again, you’re born again. However, you can slip back into sin and lose salvation if you do not REPENT.
So, no. I do not believe in once saved always saved.
Be a dear and read my posts next time. Ok? K.
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