Assumption of st. Mary

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Reading the non-Catholic posts here, I wish they knew more about the lives of the saints, the common faith we share…that is the same as past popes and the clergy…because it is not about us…it is about the life of Christ that we participate in and share.

This focus is tested when we have scandals among our own, but the good far outweigh the former…and it is the Holy Spirit Who works through the Church, not men and their self-will.
Solid spirituality is always about Who Christ is and Who we are not.

If critics would spend some time reading objective lives of the saints and compare the saints’ lives to their own…could they have lived such a way?..it would help…but if you are always reading through biased sources…this conflict you have with the Church won’t leave your heart and soul.

I am thankful for the lives of the saints…they were given to us to help be guiding lights for us…Today we have Theresa of Calcutta, who is not a saint, but lived a very saintly life…and a good example of someone living out the Gospel. I don’t know anyone around me that is living in such denial as her. Do you?
 
rinnie;7015779:
Rinnie,
In LDS, people are encouraged to develop their own light and not just bask in the **reflected light **
of those around them, of greater faith and devotion. This is especially important with teenagers who have parents of strong faith.

I am always concerned when I see Catholics raise up their members that have dedicated their life to Christ, as if it is their own accomplishment. Priests, Bishops & Nuns deserve immense respect for what they do, but mature Catholics should not be basking in their reflected light, and just doing their 1hr of Mass per week.

Todd how would you be able to make a statement like that when you have no clue what we do. Did you forget about the hours of praying that we do with our Lord in praying the rosary for one thing per day.

Do you ever take into consideration the things we do for the Church, the meetings we attend, the help with the food that we do for others.

And when I raised my Children up in the faith how could that POSSIBLY be MY accomplishment. That is the accomplishment of the Holy Spirit! IT is by the power of the Holy Spirit and the love of the Father that our Children grow up in the faith. We have no power over our Children:shrug:

I cannot see how you can judge us like that. My Dad attended Mass every single day of his life. He served Mass at least 4 times a week and prayed the rosary every single morning before he even had a cup of coffee. He read the bible daily and did whatever he could for anyone that ever asked anything of him. I try to do my best to fill those shoes and pray my Children will also someday.
 
Being “full of grace” at the annunciation in no way proves sinlessness during her entire life.
The Latin Vulgate is correctecd by the modern Catholic Bible NAB which translates it simply “favored one.” Second the salutation of the angel is only a reference to her state at that moment not to her entire life. It doesn’t mean that she was always and would always be full of grace but only that she was at that time. The grace she received was for the task of being the mother of the Messiah not to prevent her from any sin. Even Catholic scholars admit that Mary was in need of redemption. Why if she was not a sinner? Ott says that Mary required redemption. It is biblically unfounded to suggest that she was prevented from inheriting sins rather that being delivered from it.😃
FW Explain this to me. According to our Church teaching Mary was SAVED from sin at the second of her life from sin. Now if GOD saved her from the moment of her conception how can she have sin? Could you explain that to me. And where did the Catholic Church ever teach that Mary did not need a savior? What do you say the Immaculate Conception is then?🤷
 
Alleluia. Catholics might misconstrue Solo Ecriptura .It coexists with everything apostolic : It coexists with "Church .It coexists with magisteium /teachers and prophets .It coexists with elders and bishops .We ARE the Body of Christ .SE does not do away with any of the “parts”.CC will not be happy until all points are capitulated .Othodox and Lutheran are very close to Catholicism as a fuctioning “church”. All of their scriptures do not do away with the role and importance of scripture in the church.
Who ever claimed that the Church ever did away with SS? What are you taking about? The CC has always Taught SS. They just claim that you cannot understand SS without ST? Can you prove that wrong? How do you feel that you can teach SS without knowing Sacred Tradition?
 
Todd520;7016193:
Todd how would you be able to make a statement like that when you have no clue what we do. Did you forget about the hours of praying that we do with our Lord in praying the rosary for one thing per day.

Do you ever take into consideration the things we do for the Church, the meetings we attend, the help with the food that we do for others.

And when I raised my Children up in the faith how could that POSSIBLY be MY accomplishment. That is the accomplishment of the Holy Spirit! IT is by the power of the Holy Spirit and the love of the Father that our Children grow up in the faith. We have no power over our Children:shrug:

I cannot see how you can judge us like that. My Dad attended Mass every single day of his life. He served Mass at least 4 times a week and prayed the rosary every single morning before he even had a cup of coffee. He read the bible daily and did whatever he could for anyone that ever asked anything of him. I try to do my best to fill those shoes and pray my Children will also someday.
Rinnie, I spent most of my life as a Catholic so I can speak from experience, I apologize if you took my comment personally, as it clearly doesn’t apply to you or your family.

Personally, I still have alot of work to do to build my ‘own light’
 
first of all most denominations believe in one of your first creeds-Apostles or Nicene(?) That creed is VERY<VERY scriptural. The division perhaps started when following creeds etc became less scriptural …One must also compare apples to apples . CC is just one magisterium or denomination , very unified within itself. Southern Baptists is another denomination/magisterium, very unified within itself. Greek Orthodoxy is another ,very unified within. Within any denomination , you can travel the world and feel right at home within that denomination, having the same truths in Boston as you do Melbourne. Right ? …That is a big generalization ,that CC has been the same for 2ooo years .In areas such as baptism, limbo ,Marionism,.it has not,generally speaking
Sorry to inform you, the RCC is not a denomination… all denominations stem from the Catholic Church.

Word Origin & History

denomination:
late 14c., “a naming,” from L. denominationem (nom. denominatio ) "a calling by anything other than the proper name, metonymy," from denominare “to name,” from de- “completely” + nominare “to name.” Monetary sense is 1650s; meaning “religious sect” is 1716.

anyone’s interpretation of the Bible is their ‘Traditition’ ex. "This is how we interpret the Bible’
Code:
We have a teaching Body,
We don’t teach Bible alone, self interpretation nor private revelation…but believe in

a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

“Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence.”

But Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants, who place their confidence in Martin Luther’s theory of sola scriptura (Latin: “Scripture alone”), will usually argue for their position by citing a couple of key verses. The first is this: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name” (John 20:31). The other is this: “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be equipped, prepared for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16–17). According to these Protestants, these verses demonstrate the reality of sola scriptura (the “Bible only” theory).

Not so, reply Catholics. First, the verse from John refers to the things written in that book (read it with John 20:30, the verse immediately before it to see the context of the statement in question). If this verse proved anything, it would not prove the theory of sola scriptura but that the Gospel of John is sufficient.

Second, the verse from John’s Gospel tells us only that the Bible was composed so we can be helped to believe Jesus is the Messiah. It does not say the Bible is all we need for salvation, much less that the Bible is all we need for theology; nor does it say the Bible is even necessary to believe in Christ. After all, the earliest Christians had no New Testament to which they could appeal; they learned from oral, rather than written, instruction. Until relatively recent times, the Bible was inaccessible to most people, either because they could not read or because the printing press had not been invented. All these people learned from oral instruction, passed down, generation to generation, by the Church.

Much the same can be said about 2 Timothy 3:16-17. To say that all inspired writing “has its uses” is one thing; to say that such a remark means that only inspired writing need be followed is something else. Besides, there is a telling argument against claims of Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants. It is the contradiction that arises out of their own interpretation of this verse. John Henry Newman explained it in an 1884 essay entitled “Inspiration in its Relation to Revelation.”

Newman’s argument

He wrote: "It is quite evident that this passage furnishes no argument whatever that the sacred Scripture, without Tradition, is the sole rule of faith; for, although sacred Scripture is profitable for these four ends, still it is not said to be sufficient. The Apostle [Paul] requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15). Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy.

Now, a good part of the New Testament was not written in his boyhood: Some of the Catholic epistles were not written even when Paul wrote this, and none of the books of the New Testament were then placed on the canon of the Scripture books. He refers, then, to the scriptures of the Old Testament, and, if the argument from this passage proved anything, it would prove too much, viz., that the scriptures of the New Testament were not necessary for a rule of faith."

see the rest

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=318735&Pg=Forum12&Pgnu=1&recnu=24

God bless
john
 
FW Explain this to me. According to our Church teaching Mary was SAVED from sin at the second of her life from sin. Now if GOD saved her from the moment of her conception how can she have sin? Could you explain that to me. And where did the Catholic Church ever teach that Mary did not need a savior? What do you say the Immaculate Conception is then?🤷
Actually Mary is saved from Sin By Jesus Sacrifice and saving grace on the Cross from eternity (Out of time).

Just as all of us are saved from Christ in time. The Church always believed just could not explain it.

God bless,
John
 
Mary chose Christ as Savior with her entire constitution…‘Yes’…she making her choice at her Immaculate Conception…she created by the Heavenly Father…this is not my take but the priest instructor who studied in Rome…who was in the work of – retraining – professional catechists in my diocese…We did not use any mid-management reinterpretation of documents…

We studied only actual church documents…the Vatican Council – the spirit of the Church…both universally and in context to the world today…the Constitution of the Liturgy, the Universal Catechism, and Canon Law…we studied these same materials for various courses and topics…

Mary’s entire being was created both free of sin, she was born of free will and choice, and as such, she being full of grace…at her creation, she proclaimed ‘yes’ to the Savior. She could have said ‘no’ to the Angel Gabriel.

Rinnie…I especially like the daily communicants…those who go to daily Mass…the quiet ones who go about quietly doing God’s will and not bringing attention to themselves…many working in the background…sounds like your father…it seems no matter what church you go to, there is this innate unity and mutual understanding of those who go to daily Mass…or have the intention of doing so but can’t for various reasons.
 
Being “full of grace” at the annunciation in no way proves sinlessness during her entire life.
The Latin Vulgate is correctecd by the modern Catholic Bible NAB which translates it simply “favored one.” 😃
It is not a coreection, but like all Bible translations some phrases words are hard to explain i.e. Faull of Grace into the vernacular, (common language) Which the Vulgate was in Jerome’s time of its translation from the The Greek, and Hebrew.

Do you need a biblical precedence for Mary’s participation in our Salvation,

Let’s go to the Scriptures. Remember the Jesus, the Apostles and their disciples are Hebrew Scriptures to explain and evangelize Christ.

Gideon is called to save Israel:

Jdg 6:11 Now the angel of the LORD came and sat under the oak at Ophrah, which belonged to Jo’ash the Abiez’rite, as his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the wine press, to hide it from the Mid’ianites.

Jdg 6:12 And the angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, "The LORD is with you, you mighty man of valor.

Gideon asks?
Jdg 6:15 And he said to him, "Pray, Lord, how can I deliver Israel? Behold, my clan is the weakest in Manas’seh, and I am the least in my family.

He then asks for signs,

Mary is perplexed and asks in complete humity, “But how can this be”

and accepts her role. Because nothing is impossible for God, unless you’re a protestant with issues!

God bless,
John

Mary is called on to by God through an angel of the LORD to help in the salvation of Mankind.
 
David, was this post for me? :confused::confused:
Sorry,no but for JimmyB-guess I hit the wrong quote button .You were right next to his ,When i realized it ,I tried his but I think it would not let me comment. Sorry
 
Then he shall offer it before the Lord, and make atonement for her: This was a fairly standard sacrifice for atonement, holding the woman symbolically responsible for bringing another sinner into this world. The required sacrifice was the same for her who has borne a male or a female
So you agree that the sacrifice offered at the Presentation of Lord was for a symbolic reason— not because of any actual sin. So why did you try to prove that Mary had sin using this bible verse? That doesn’t make any sense. By your reasoning we should believe that her Son was born a sinner. This shows that you are grasping at straws to try to prove a point that cannot be proven from the Scriptures.
 
Who ever claimed that the Church ever did away with SS? What are you taking about? The CC has always Taught SS. They just claim that you cannot understand SS without ST? Can you prove that wrong? How do you feel that you can teach SS without knowing Sacred Tradition?
Hi never did say CC did away with SS(is that Sacred Scripture ?)SE is solo,ecriptura .I was trying to say SE does not do away with things you cherish as a Catholic :church,teachers,heirarchy of offices ,tradition etc. etc.That is what I keep reading from Catholics, that protestants do not believe or rely on theses things . You are very succint -to the point .I like it. I understand and have seen catechism quotes to show we need tradition to expound on some SS. Perhaps .However ,it should never be at the expense of the HS. Hence for biblical teaching ,Job says what enlightens us , even about SS : Job 32:8 “There is a spirit in a man, and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding” KJV. Also ,despite your ST and even SS, and magisterium /church /synagogue and despite Jesus right in front of Peter , Jesus says it was divine inspiration from the Father that gave Peter understanding ,t hat Jesus was Messiah . See, church was not enough .Tradition was not enough .Teaching was not enough .God may use those things , but in the end , it is imperative that God turns the light on .That is why there can be so much spiritual vitality outside your church ,or even mine, if I boast or lift it up ,more than God himself. He is not confined to an church institution-yours or mine-thankfully so.
 
David before we get to far; what is your understanding of Sola Scriptura?
Hi never did say CC did away with SS(is that Sacred Scripture ?)SE is solo,ecriptura .I was trying to say SE does not do away with things you cherish as a Catholic :church,teachers,heirarchy of offices ,tradition etc. etc.That is what I keep reading from Catholics, that protestants do not believe or rely on theses things .
Some do. Some don’t. I try not to generalize 🤷
You are very succint -to the point .I like it. I understand and have seen catechism quotes to show we need tradition to expound on some SS. Perhaps .However ,it should never be at the expense of the HS.
You are creating a false premise. Catholics are not saying that it is the “church and tradition vs the Holy Spirit” you are. In fact Catholics have told you that we believe the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit so your argument is null. You are welcome to create a strawman and attack it but it will be just that, a strawman and not Catholic teaching.
Hence for biblical teaching ,Job says what enlightens us , even about SS : Job 32:8 “There is a spirit in a man, and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding”
That is begging the question. How does one determine when one is being led by the Holy Spirit? It is not enough for you to quote Job and then say, “see I am led by the Holy Spirit”.
KJV. Also ,despite your ST and even SS, and magisterium /church /synagogue and despite Jesus right in front of Peter , Jesus says it was divine inspiration from the Father that gave Peter understanding ,t hat Jesus was Messiah .
Yes, Catholics believe that Peter was led by the Holy Spirit. We continue to believe that his successors are as well. This has nothing to do with Catholic’s not understanding the leading of the Holy Spirit. Again, you are trying to create a false premise.
See, church was not enough .Tradition was not enough .Teaching was not enough .God may use those things , but in the end , it is imperative that God turns the light on
One could also use your exact argument to show that Scripture was not enough :eek: Here again David is another false premise of yours. Catholics do not believe you need just the Church, or just Tradition, or just the Scriptures, but all in are apart of the Church’s deposit of faith.

God bless
 
How about Moses and Elijah @ the Transfiguration? Elijah was taken up… Moses was buried according to scripture. Both standing with Jesus. Not spirits But Moses and Elijah,

Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD,

Deu 34:6 and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-pe’or; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day.

Deu 34:7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
  • Peter was going to build them a tent?*
Mar 9:3 and his garments became glistening, intensely white, as no fuller on earth could bleach them.

Mar 9:4 And there appeared to them Eli’jah with Moses; and they were talking to Jesus.

Mar 9:5 And Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is well that we are here; let us make three booths, one for you and one for Moses and one for Eli’jah.”

Mar 9:6 For he did not know what to say, for they were exceedingly afraid.

God bless,
John
John,

I’m not sure what your point is. Yes, some people have been assumed body and soul into heaven.

I believe scripture is silent as to whether Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. She very well have been assumed but there is no scriptural support.
 
Hi SR, and the answer is no. The Church teaches since Mary was freed from Original Sin and its consequences death could not claim her in the same way it takes each of us. It is the teaching and faith of the CHURCH that Mary was assumed bodily into heaven when her earthly days were complete. The CCC teaches she was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory and exalted by he Lord as Queen over alll things. Unlike the rest of the faithful who must wait until the last judgement Mary’s body and soul has already entered heavenly glory.

Now that is and has always been the teaching of the Church from the day our Dear Lord came to get her.
The first part of your post makes the same point another poster made earlier, namely that if Mary was free from all sin, original and actual, she would not have been made to suffer the rot of the grave. While I don’t believe in the immaculate conception it is an interesting point “if” one does accept the IC as fact.
 
  • requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15). Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy.
Now, a good part of the New Testament was not written in his boyhood: Some of the Catholic epistles were not written even when Paul wrote this, and none of the books of the New Testament were then placed on the canon of the Scripture books. He refers, then, to the scriptures of the Old Testament, and, if the argument from this passage proved anything, it would prove too much, viz., that the scriptures of the New Testament were not necessary for a rule of faith."

see the rest

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=318735&Pg=Forum12&Pgnu=1&recnu=24

God bless
john*

True ,most denominations stem from CC .Is that a bad thing .no Good things stemmed from Judaism-namely Christianity (and Judaism hated it -got jealous as per God’s plan ) It is opinion that Roman Catholicism did not stem from earliest Christianity. Indeed ,many believe CC denominated from pure ,non-denominated Christianity . Thanks for definition. Your next two paragraphs are much nice sounding "noise’ , not saying much but devaluing Holy Scripture to elevate Tradition (cause we are after all trying to talk about the Assumption/Tradition).If the gospel of John is sufficient -great -should do away with a lot of non-biblical tradition). But we have three other gospels to boot and epistles that should add to that sufficiency .I do not see how John devalues scripture only ,but certainly safeguards against fables…Timothy elevates scripture ,every last jot and title to date for Timothy ,cause Paul does not mention a magisterium ,tradition etc .he mentions scripture ,be it mostly O.T. expounded by yes ,the verbal gospel -good news about Jesus Christ ,not Marionism…Wow so if you believe that Jesus is the Messiah ,you still are not saved ???(You said the bible helps us believe in Messiah , yet the Bible is not enough, as if there is something more than seeing Jesus in truth) ). I thought you could not sincerely confess the Lord as Messiah without first being drawn by the Father and enlightened by him ,as Peter was -being born again saved .You mean there is more ? So first in my opinion you take the bible off the protestant pedestal and now seeing Jesus as the Messiah ,our Savior is not enough ? I guess so cause Marionism is not there…I think the Written Word was most influential in the early church . It mattered , for it could cost you yourl ife to be found with it .It would be confiscated and burned ,and maybe you too. Oral tradition led to much diversity and divisiveness that Constantine called for 50 bibles to be made to help unify the church (and called for a council -came out with a creed ,which was totally bible based -no marionism). He did not call for a codifying of tradition ,not already in writhing (SS).He called for more SS. Newman is dead wrong Timothy offers no argument that you need tradtion to clarify scripture .He makes Paul a liar .The Word can make you perfect -how is that deficient in itself ? If tradition is needed ,then scripture is not good enough in itself as Paul says it is . However ,if you are going to devalue protestants view of scripture , may I help .Paul understood scripture is not enough ,FOR IT IS NOT .Peter had Tradition ,Scripture ,Teachers -even the Lord Himself , and he did NOT’ 'get it ", except for one thing : “The Father in heaven has revealed this to you that I am the Messiah” ( Job 32:8 “There is a spirit in a man , and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding”. KJV. So you are right .the bible is not enough . But neither are your traditions or magisteriums etc.etc…Indeed God uses all things together for good ,but all things must line up with His word above all His written word .This is His “tradition” .
 
  • requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15). Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy.
Now, a good part of the New Testament was not written in his boyhood: Some of the Catholic epistles were not written even when Paul wrote this, and none of the books of the New Testament were then placed on the canon of the Scripture books. He refers, then, to the scriptures of the Old Testament, and, if the argument from this passage proved anything, it would prove too much, viz., that the scriptures of the New Testament were not necessary for a rule of faith."*

see the rest

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=318735&Pg=Forum12&Pgnu=1&recnu=24

God bless
john

True ,most denominations stem from CC .Is that a bad thing .no Good things stemmed from Judaism-namely Christianity (and Judaism hated it -got jealous as per God’s plan ) It is opinion that Roman Catholicism did not stem from earliest Christianity. Indeed ,many believe CC denominated from pure ,non-denominated Christianity . Thanks for definition. Your next two paragraphs are much nice sounding "noise’ , not saying much but devaluing Holy Scripture to elevate Tradition (cause we are after all trying to talk about the Assumption/Tradition).If the gospel of John is sufficient -great -should do away with a lot of non-biblical tradition). But we have three other gospels to boot and epistles that should add to that sufficiency .I do not see how John devalues scripture only ,but certainly safeguards against fables…Timothy elevates scripture ,every last jot and title to date for Timothy ,cause Paul does not mention a magisterium ,tradition etc .he mentions scripture ,be it mostly O.T. expounded by yes ,the verbal gospel -good news about Jesus Christ ,not Marionism…Wow so if you believe that Jesus is the Messiah ,you still are not saved ???(You said the bible helps us believe in Messiah , yet the Bible is not enough, as if there is something more than seeing Jesus in truth) ). I thought you could not sincerely confess the Lord as Messiah without first being drawn by the Father and enlightened by him ,as Peter was -being born again saved .You mean there is more ? So first in my opinion you take the bible off the protestant pedestal and now seeing Jesus as the Messiah ,our Savior is not enough ? I guess so cause Marionism is not there…I think the Written Word was most influential in the early church . It mattered , for it could cost you yourl ife to be found with it .It would be confiscated and burned ,and maybe you too. Oral tradition led to much diversity and divisiveness that Constantine called for 50 bibles to be made to help unify the church (and called for a council -came out with a creed ,which was totally bible based -no marionism). He did not call for a codifying of tradition ,not already in writhing (SS).He called for more SS. Newman is dead wrong Timothy offers no argument that you need tradtion to clarify scripture .He makes Paul a liar .The Word can make you perfect -how is that deficient in itself ? If tradition is needed ,then scripture is not good enough in itself as Paul says it is . However ,if you are going to devalue protestants view of scripture , may I help .Paul understood scripture is not enough ,FOR IT IS NOT .Peter had Tradition ,Scripture ,Teachers -even the Lord Himself , and he did NOT’ 'get it ", except for one thing : “The Father in heaven has revealed this to you that I am the Messiah” ( Job 32:8 “There is a spirit in a man , and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding”. KJV. So you are right .the bible is not enough . But neither are your traditions or magisteriums etc.etc…Indeed God uses all things together for good ,but all things must line up with His word above all His written word .This is His “tradition” .
 
David before we get to far; what is your understanding of Sola Scriptura?

Some do. Some don’t. I try not to generalize 🤷

You are creating a false premise. Catholics are not saying that it is the “church and tradition vs the Holy Spirit” you are. In fact Catholics have told you that we believe the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit so your argument is null. You are welcome to create a strawman and attack it but it will be just that, a strawman and not Catholic teaching.True the Hs is mine but catechism is clear tradition is on par with scripture as far as teaching authority.Yes ,i hate strawmen ,do not want to do it with you -it shows a weakness in thought .I feel this is done with SE ,like we have NO place for church ,teachers ,church officers etc etc ,when we do -because it is scriptural - kind of funny.

That is begging the question. How does one determine when one is being led by the Holy Spirit? It is not enough for you to quote Job and then say, “see I am led by the Holy Spirit”.
My sheep know my voice .As Augustine says, His voice will not go against what is written in th e"Book"

Yes, Catholics believe that Peter was led by the Holy Spirit. We continue to believe that his successors are as well. This has nothing to do with Catholic’s not understanding the leading of the Holy Spirit. Again, you are trying to create a false premise.
Disagree .the fact that you insist on tradition to help explain scripture can compete with the Holy Spirit. Why do you agree that tradition did hot help Peter but that it was the Holy Spirit ,and then elevate tradition on par with scripture , for enlightenment to me.

One could also use your exact argument to show that Scripture was not enough :eek: Here again David is another false premise of yours. Catholics do not believe you need just the Church, or just Tradition, or just the Scriptures, but all in are apart of the Church’s deposit of faith.
Agreed ,I strongly implied and said it applies to scripture also .good point .So nope ,scripture is not enough ,one needs divine inspiration (must be born again).
God bless
 
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