Assurance of Salvation

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jc and Jerry Jet

I agree that a person can lose their salvation if they turn their back on God. I use the example of Judas. We read in the Gospels that Jesus sent our 12 apostles and later 72 to preach around the country. Jesus gave them authority over demons, illness, injury, and even death. So Judas spent time healing the sick and lame, driving our demons and raising the dead, acts which evidence the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Yet, Judas turned his back on Jesus, not when he betrayed Jesus to the temple guards, but when he committed suicide instead of repenting. Also in the sixth chapter of Hebrews there is a warning about those who fall away after receiving the light.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

However, this judgement is up to God. I have learned from experience not to count anyone out when it comes to the power of Jesus.
 
stevekehl said:
jc and Jerry Jet

I agree that a person can lose their salvation if they turn their back on God. I use the example of Judas. We read in the Gospels that Jesus sent our 12 apostles and later 72 to preach around the country. Jesus gave them authority over demons, illness, injury, and even death. So Judas spent time healing the sick and lame, driving our demons and raising the dead, acts which evidence the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Yet, Judas turned his back on Jesus, not when he betrayed Jesus to the temple guards, but when he committed suicide instead of repenting. Also in the sixth chapter of Hebrews there is a warning about those who fall away after receiving the light.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

However, this judgement is up to God. I have learned from experience not to count anyone out when it comes to the power of Jesus.
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this sounds like a big blow to OSAS.
Peace
 
stevekehl said:
jc and Jerry Jet

I agree that a person can lose their salvation if they turn their back on God. I use the example of Judas. We read in the Gospels that Jesus sent our 12 apostles and later 72 to preach around the country. Jesus gave them authority over demons, illness, injury, and even death. So Judas spent time healing the sick and lame, driving our demons and raising the dead, acts which evidence the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Yet, Judas turned his back on Jesus, not when he betrayed Jesus to the temple guards, but when he committed suicide instead of repenting. Also in the sixth chapter of Hebrews there is a warning about those who fall away after receiving the light.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

However, this judgement is up to God. I have learned from experience not to count anyone out when it comes to the power of Jesus.
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I concur with you, Salvation/Judgment is God’s Alone… however, we are not speaking of this but of the “self-assurance” that many have that there’s no way that they cannot but OWN Eternal Salvation. They render their own interpretations on passages that seem to intimate that Salvation is never lost while rejecting those (such as the one you’ve cited) that deny their theology and they grab onto things such as “were not of our own” to justify the failure of those that were “Saved” and terminated their relationship with God (rejected God). It is a fallacy to claim that there is Eternal Salvation that cannot be lost but if a Believer does reject God (giving up his/her Eternal Salvation) he/she was never part of the “saved” or “true sheep.”

Though there’s no specific person mention in the Epistles, we know that many Believers returned to their old ways because St. Paul, Jude and Peter wrote about these empty clouds/springs… and while Hebrews 3 state a loss of Salvation it does not intimate that the loss is permanent only that it would be impossible to restore them (convict/convert) again–Jesus can still Save them through the Power of the Holy Spirit (as it could have been done with Judas when Jesus, in the Spirit, preached to those who have died before His Resurrection!)

There’s no doubt about God’s Mercy!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Jerry-Jet said:
As long as Jesus says that He is the true vine and that we are the branches(which means we HAVE to be saved) and that we can still be cut off and thrown into the fire and burned then OSAS will forever be a complete LIE!
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Jerry-Jet, you are referring to John 15:1-6, I believe, please correct me if I’m wrong.

But your interpretation is clearly wrong. Here’s why.

Jesus and other New Testament writers often refer to those who are supposedly Christians, making that very claim, yet are not, and they may even leave the faith completely (though not necessarily). Consider:

Matthew 7:21-23 (Jesus says) 21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

These false Christian’s appear to be doing great works in the name of their Lord Jesus, they seem to be persevering in the faith, but Jesus say’s He NEVER knew them! Ouch!

1 John, which is the great epistle John writes to believers on the assurance of salvation, says very clearly, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” 1 John 2:19

There are false Christian’s in our fellowship who will turn from and leave the faith. They did not persevere because they were never Christians to begin with.

The elect, however, are Christians who do understand/desire God’s Word and will persevere in the faith, and they are Jesus sheep who will never perish, the ones given to Him by the Father and the ones He will raise up on the last day. They are born of God and have the free gift of eternal life (a person with eternal life has eternal life - it’s not complicated). We know that when God does a good work in us that we will persevere, and that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Here are a few of those verses (ESV) we can consider at promises from God that give us great hope.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 1:12-13. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:37-40 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 10:27-30. 27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

The credit for the salvation of the elect is not a person, but ONLY GOD! He doesn’t start something He doesn’t finish. That is biblical doctrine.

Sincerely, OldProf
 
When people say to the Lord “Did we not cast out demons in your name”–Jesus does not say–no you didn’t–Jesus says “depart from me I never knew you”.

John mentions that Jesus knew who would betray Him in reference to Judas–Jesus as God has perfect foreknowledge of our choices.

When Jesus says “depart from me I never knew you” doesn’t mean that He never knew them–what it does mean is that in reference to their salvation–as was the case of Judas–He never knew them to be His persevering elect!

They go to Hell–just like Judas–not because they never were called and joined to Jesus(saved) but because they do fall away!

Just like the SAVED people in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-32 fall away.

The people in 1 John 2:19 are also the non persevering.

Salvation is not a brand into robot hood.

It makes Protestants feel good to think that they will never fall away–that’s exactly what Satan wants them to think.

Why is it that Protestants do not have the intellectual capacity to understand continuousness? Is there mind so narrow minded and small that they can’t understand such a concept?

I guess they’re incapable of spiritual calculas!

Trust me–the “I AM” God who spoke to Moses CONTINUES–and His CONTINUING saving grace saves–not an INSTANTANEOUS branding grace.

If God saves people by branding them–what is the point oif Jesus dying on the cross–why not just brand them–declare them righteous even though they’re depraved and skip the cross?!

Jesus didn’t die on the cross so that people would be ZAPPED with and instantly saving moment and then not CONTINUE in grace.

OSAS is the scam that the devil plays on people who don’t want to believe in the FACT of MORTAL sin.

All sin is not the same! Some is to death and some is not–the Bible says so!

OSAS means that a person would be an idiot for “WORKING out their salvation with fear and trembling”–why WORK it out if you’re ZAPPED with it and why worry about it if you’ve go your ticket punced? Just slap your fellow OSAS believer on the back about how good it is to have that ticket punched–

try of course to not sin and to live a good christian life but don’t TREMBLE with fear–you’ve got it in the bag!

Course if there is such a thing as MORTAL sin and you do die–are you going to tell me that it would be worth betting an eternity in Hell that MORTAL sin is not true–

That God’s Catholic Church taught error for 1500 years before the reformation and that God didn’t care that His church was taught wrong about salvation?!

That God was either impotent or didn’t care?!

And you’re willing to bet your eternal soul that that is so?!

And I thought pharoah’s heart was HAREDENED–well its HARDNESS can never match the NARROWNESS of the OSAS believer’s one track self congragulatory mind!

The bible says we’re NOT saved by faith alone!

The same peoploe that believe OSAS also believe in salvation by FAITH ALONE.

Well I’ll tell you this: I wouldn’t bet my eternal soul on the position of people who already prove by their reject of James 2:24 that they could care less what God says in the bible!

Those same people can’t PROVE where God gave them the authority to interpret scripture–and I’m supposed to believe them?

All I can do is pray for them–some of them will convert to the true Catholic faith–some of them are invincibly ignorant and will be saved because they do not know better–the SAD part is that some of them will hear the truth of the Catholic faith and will choose to reject it.

Those people if they die unrepentent in that state of mortal sin WILL go to Hell.

Only God knows who they are but God does know and God will execute hi justice against them!

I don’t glory in their destruction–I must WORK out my own salvation in FEAR and TREMBLING. If I persevere until the end it will be because Jesus’ saving grace CONTINUED in me until death.
 
Jerry-Jet said:
When people say to the Lord “Did we not cast out demons in your name”–Jesus does not say–no you didn’t–Jesus says “depart from me I never knew you”.

John mentions that Jesus knew who would betray Him in reference to Judas–Jesus as God has perfect foreknowledge of our choices.

When Jesus says “depart from me I never knew you” doesn’t mean that He never knew them–what it does mean is that in reference to their salvation–as was the case of Judas–He never knew them to be His persevering elect!

They go to Hell–just like Judas–not because they never were called and joined to Jesus(saved) but because they do fall away!

Just like the SAVED people in Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-32 fall away.

The people in 1 John 2:19 are also the non persevering.

Salvation is not a brand into robot hood.

It makes Protestants feel good to think that they will never fall away–that’s exactly what Satan wants them to think.

Why is it that Protestants do not have the intellectual capacity to understand continuousness? Is there mind so narrow minded and small that they can’t understand such a concept?

I guess they’re incapable of spiritual calculas!

Trust me–the “I AM” God who spoke to Moses CONTINUES–and His CONTINUING saving grace saves–not an INSTANTANEOUS branding grace.

If God saves people by branding them–what is the point oif Jesus dying on the cross–why not just brand them–declare them righteous even though they’re depraved and skip the cross?!

Jesus didn’t die on the cross so that people would be ZAPPED with and instantly saving moment and then not CONTINUE in grace.

OSAS is the scam that the devil plays on people who don’t want to believe in the FACT of MORTAL sin.

All sin is not the same! Some is to death and some is not–the Bible says so!

OSAS means that a person would be an idiot for “WORKING out their salvation with fear and trembling”–why WORK it out if you’re ZAPPED with it and why worry about it if you’ve go your ticket punced? Just slap your fellow OSAS believer on the back about how good it is to have that ticket punched–

try of course to not sin and to live a good christian life but don’t TREMBLE with fear–you’ve got it in the bag!

Course if there is such a thing as MORTAL sin and you do die–are you going to tell me that it would be worth betting an eternity in Hell that MORTAL sin is not true–

That God’s Catholic Church taught error for 1500 years before the reformation and that God didn’t care that His church was taught wrong about salvation?!

That God was either impotent or didn’t care?!

And you’re willing to bet your eternal soul that that is so?!

And I thought pharoah’s heart was HAREDENED–well its HARDNESS can never match the NARROWNESS of the OSAS believer’s one track self congragulatory mind!

The bible says we’re NOT saved by faith alone!

The same peoploe that believe OSAS also believe in salvation by FAITH ALONE.

Well I’ll tell you this: I wouldn’t bet my eternal soul on the position of people who already prove by their reject of James 2:24 that they could care less what God says in the bible!

Those same people can’t PROVE where God gave them the authority to interpret scripture–and I’m supposed to believe them?

All I can do is pray for them–some of them will convert to the true Catholic faith–some of them are invincibly ignorant and will be saved because they do not know better–the SAD part is that some of them will hear the truth of the Catholic faith and will choose to reject it.

Those people if they die unrepentent in that state of mortal sin WILL go to Hell.

Only God knows who they are but God does know and God will execute hi justice against them!

I don’t glory in their destruction–I must WORK out my own salvation in FEAR and TREMBLING. If I persevere until the end it will be because Jesus’ saving grace CONTINUED in me until death.
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I don’t think that it is due much to limited intelligence; after all, most evolutionists and abortionists have had a great deal of educuation–some may even possess master degrees and such… I think it has more to do with “will;” the average Believer, including Catholics, does not want to relinquish his/her will to Yahweh God… so he/she must constantly have the final word on all matter–so what if it means that they have to create/believe a theology that denies God’s Word and is based on interpretation (personal) rather than Scriptures…

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Who has it correct, Old Prof or Jerry-Jet and company?

Let’s ask the invisible church.
No clear cut choice either.
hmm.
 
The invisible church like visible idols and like faith without words doesn’t speak because it is dead!

The visible church that Christ founded speaks and can be heard because it is alive!

Jesus said “Whoever hears you hears me”.

Who cares what the invisible dead non church speaks about anything?
 
fbl9 said:
Who has it correct, Old Prof or Jerry-Jet and company?

Let’s ask the invisible church.
No clear cut choice either.
hmm.
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…I think there was a member or two on the site ran by the Bible Gateway forums… don’t know who he/they are though… so checking with them has to be a touch n feel type of communication.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Jerry-Jet said:
The invisible church like visible idols and like faith without words doesn’t speak because it is dead!

The visible church that Christ founded speaks and can be heard because it is alive!

Jesus said “Whoever hears you hears me”.

Who cares what the invisible dead non church speaks about anything?
Click to expand...
…since Obama calls himself a Christian… could he not be part of that invisible church?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
U people are starting to sound like Pharisees.

You are saved or thrown into fire on the day of judgement.

Until then, we must carry our cross in this world.

We will continue to be tested.

No one in this world can know if they will have salvation. Although,they can have a good idea.

Don’t forget that salvation is yes or no. However, each will receive a reward commensurate with his deeds.
 
fbl9 said:
Who has it correct, Old Prof or Jerry-Jet and company?

Let’s ask the invisible church.
No clear cut choice either.
hmm.
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now, this is very funny, goodluck asking the “invisible church”. Im pretty sure that when christ said “take it to the church” he wasn’t taking about the invisible church, the invisible church is invisible it can’t be seen and i’m pretty sure it doesnt speak.
Peace
 
Ubenedictus said:
now, this is very funny, goodluck asking the “invisible church”. Im pretty sure that when christ said “take it to the church” he wasn’t taking about the invisible church, the invisible church is invisible it can’t be seen and i’m pretty sure it doesnt speak.
Peace
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Yes, isn’t funny how that invisible church ends up coming off pretty dumb when asked to resolve questions like this?
 
If u are experiencing heaven on Earth, it is a gift from God.

This is perfection in the Christian life. Few achieve it.

Fire awaits most of us who are baptised, along with the Holy Spirit, of course.
 
Jerry-Jet said:
The invisible church like visible idols and like faith without words doesn’t speak because it is dead!

The visible church that Christ founded speaks and can be heard because it is alive!

Jesus said “Whoever hears you hears me”.

Who cares what the invisible dead non church speaks about anything?
Click to expand...
Jerry-Jet, you seem to have your own definition for “invisible church” that is not known. See wikipedia article “invisible church” for the standard understanding. The invisible church only has the elect of God as members, and as such, it is fully alive. The visible church is the body of all people who follow Christ and call themselves “Christians.” Thus, it has a mixture of spiritually alive and spiritually dead people, but they all may act and talk like Christians. Remember, Clinton, Gore, and Obama have all indicated that they are Christians, even though they govern like atheists and have a strong following of atheist supporters.

Regards, OldProf
 
OldProf said:
Jerry-Jet, you seem to have your own definition for “invisible church” that is not known. See wikipedia article “invisible church” for the standard understanding. The invisible church only has the elect of God as members, and as such, it is fully alive. The visible church is the body of all people who follow Christ and call themselves “Christians.” Thus, it has a mixture of spiritually alive and spiritually dead people, but they all may act and talk like Christians. Remember, Clinton, Gore, and Obama have all indicated that they are Christians, even though they govern like atheists and have a strong following of atheist supporters.

Regards, OldProf
Click to expand...
 
Christ founded a VISIBLE church on Peter.

That church eats Jesus’ flesh and drinks Jesus’ blood.

It’s not hard to find that church because like Malachi prophesized from the rising to the setting of the sun in every place–it always offers a living sacrifice!

You’ll never find that sacrifice in the DEAD invisible church that hates Peter’s authority given by Jesus!
 
Jerry-Jet said:
Christ founded a VISIBLE church on Peter.

That church eats Jesus’ flesh and drinks Jesus’ blood.

It’s not hard to find that church because like Malachi prophesized from the rising to the setting of the sun in every place–it always offers a living sacrifice!

You’ll never find that sacrifice in the DEAD invisible church that hates Peter’s authority given by Jesus!
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Peter was Paul’s spiritual leader, correct?
 
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