Assurance of Salvation

[tqualey]

Hi, Thesmiter1,

Hmmmmmmmm … come to think of it, OldProf did not respond to my question about St. Paul ‘lack’ of so-called assurance in 1Cor 9:27 - where he does not want to become a castaway - so he continues to work at preaching the Gospel.

Do you think that maybe a pattern is devloping…?

God bless

Tom

OldProf, you have not addressed several of my posts. You did partially respond to one, but did not address much of the arguments I presented. You interpretation seems to be primarily based on John 10: 27-30. I, and my fellow Catholics posting, have presented quite ample evidence that you are interpreting this in quite a narrow way, with little regard for many other Scripture passages and thousands of years of proper interpretation and theology.

 

[jcrichton]

Angel, I agree - I don’t hold God to MY interpretation. However, there is “exegesis” - that is, what DID God say? He said His sheep “will never perish” (John 10:28), and I demonstrated the consistency of that with John 6:37-40.

I understand the example. Now think about it. If you see your child playing in the street and a car is coming, you WILL go out and pull your child off the street. God does that for the sheep, the elect of God. He “forces” them back on track. It is a very loving thing that He does.

The reason I gave the Romans 8 verses, specifically 8:39, is to anticipate someone saying what you just said, that God won’t step on a “believer’s” free will to leave the faith - to finally reject Christ. But Paul doesn’t allow that. Nothing “in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Paul leaves no doubt.

The true believer will abide in Christ to the end, even though he/she may, on occasion, fail to keep the commandments and fall into sin. And that sin will make them a most miserable sheep, and God will not just “let it go” - He will punish it on Earth. Can I prove it. Yes, Hebrews 12:5-11.

And this is also why I said we get the impression that when God begins a good work in us (“salvation is of the LORD” Jonah 2:9), He will complete that work (which is what Paul also writes, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Php 1:6).

That is exegesis, my friend. I don’t have to interpret what is clearly stated.

Regards, OldProf

…while it is true that an adult would care for a child to the point of restricting his/her freedom… the same is not for Yahweh God… otherwise He would not have allowed Israel to reject the Immanuel (Romans 9:1 thru 11:32)

…so either God does not care for Israel or He actually allows both His children and His creation autonomy:

19 Today, I call heaven and earth to witness against you: I am offering you life or death, blessing or curse. Choose life, then, so that you and your descendants may live, (Deuteronomy 30:19)

…the Apostles continued to warn the Believers that we must choose Life… that we must not return to our sinful past because if we do we would not inherit Eternal Life (1 Cor 6:9-10; Gal 5:16-21; Eph 5:1-20) … if God would not allow Believers to reject Salvation, why would Scriptures warn against returning to a wicked life away from God? …and if God would keep Believers from rejecting Christ (Salvation) why would God not force all of mankind to accept Christ? …could you imagine a more perfect existence, Heaven on earth? hollowood has been preaching it, in its version it takes evil to do good: the most wicked of people are the saviors of mankind!

No! …the Apostles never spoused evil (sin) with Salvation… instead they commanded obedience to the Gospel:

12 So, my dear friends, you have always been obedient; your obedience must not be limited to times when I am present. Now that I am absent it must be more in evidence, so work out your salvation in fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12)

St. Paul addresses Christians, in the very early Church, not with a “you’re out of Hell and forever Saved” theology… but with an insistance that the Believers (they and us) must be obedient to the Word (Gospel) and that they (and us) must remain in fellowship with Christ and “work” towards “Salvation.”

When we take Scriptures to mean that we have been handed a forever “saved” card (God is securing our Salvation) we are denying Scriptures and we make God complicit in our sin since He keeps us from rejecting Christ while allowing us to return to sin:

13 It is God who, for his own generous purpose, gives you the intention and the powers to act. 14 Let your behaviour be free of murmuring and complaining 15 so that you remain faultless and pure, unspoilt children of God surrounded by a deceitful and underhand brood, shining out among them like bright stars in the world, 16 proffering to it the Word of life. Then I shall have reason to be proud on the Day of Christ, for it will not be for nothing that I have run the race and toiled so hard. 17 Indeed, even if my blood has to be poured as a libation over your sacrifice and the offering of your faith, then I shall be glad and join in your rejoicing-18 and in the same way, you must be glad and join in my rejoicing. (Philippians 2:13-18)

…wow… St. Paul in deed has a way of spelling out “don’t worry, sin appy!”

Yes, my friend, God does not abandon us, Eternal Salvation has been Granted… but we must be willing participants in God’s efforts to complete His Work by seeking to secure our inheritance (1 P 1) …however, just claiming that we are “Saved” does not make it so as the Apostles preached:

9 it is my prayer that your love for one another may grow more and more with the knowledge and complete understanding 10 that will help you to come to true discernment, so that you will be innocent and free of any trace of guilt when the Day of Christ comes, 11 entirely filled with the fruits of uprightness through Jesus Christ, for the glory and praise of God. (Philippians 1:9-11)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[OldProf]

OldProf, you have not addressed several of my posts. You did partially respond to one, but did not address much of the arguments I presented. You interpretation seems to be primarily based on John 10: 27-30. I, and my fellow Catholics posting, have presented quite ample evidence that you are interpreting this in quite a narrow way, with little regard for many other Scripture passages and thousands of years of proper interpretation and theology.

There is the old adage, “The squeaky wheel gets the grease.” I’ve just arrived home after a 5.5 hour drive and it’s after 1 AM in VA. Last night I answered from my hotel room in NC. I’ll respond to you tomorrow. As a heads up, I won’t allow a Scriptural contradiction. Also, systematic theology doesn’t allow “little regard for many other Scripture passages.” I explained that yesterday. Also, I don’t need to “interpret” John 10:27-30 since the direct statement from Jesus is:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.

We know that Jesus, the good shepherd, has His sheep that won’t perish, they have eternal life, and as I’ve shown there are more backup verses that also do not need interpretation that further back this statement up and nail it down.

Regards, OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Thesmiter1,

Hmmmmmmmm … come to think of it, OldProf did not respond to my question about St. Paul ‘lack’ of so-called assurance in 1Cor 9:27 - where he does not want to become a castaway - so he continues to work at preaching the Gospel.

Do you think that maybe a pattern is devloping…?

God bless

Tom

Hi, Tom!

…yeah, OldProf, and others like him, refuse to give up their preconceptions about Christ’s Church and personal interpretation of Sacred Scriptures… no matter how loud they claim that they want to see Scriptural proof… what they really mean is “Catholics do not know Scriptures (most do not even own a Bible) so they will capitulate when faced with strong interpretive arguments.”

…I believe that it is difficult to get them to admit error since that would mean that the Church is right and that they are not in full Communion with the Body of Christ… it’s like that old saying: “to be immersed in history is to cease being Protestant.” (…or something like that)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

There is the old adage, “The squeaky wheel gets the grease.” I’ve just arrived home after a 5.5 hour drive and it’s after 1 AM in VA. Last night I answered from my hotel room in NC. I’ll respond to you tomorrow. As a heads up, I won’t allow a Scriptural contradiction. Also, systematic theology doesn’t allow “little regard for many other Scripture passages.” I explained that yesterday. Also, I don’t need to “interpret” John 10:27-30 since the direct statement from Jesus is:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.

We know that Jesus, the good shepherd, has His sheep that won’t perish, they have eternal life, and as I’ve shown there are more backup verses that also do not need interpretation that further back this statement up and nail it down.

Regards, OldProf

…just because something is written in Scriptures does not make it as clear cut as you would want it to be:

33 No, this is the covenant I shall make with the House of Israel when those days have come, Yahweh declares

. Within them I shall plant my Law, writing it on their hearts. Then I shall be their God and they will be my people. 34 There will be no further need for everyone to teach neighbour or brother, saying, “Learn to know Yahweh!” No, they will all know me, from the least to the greatest, Yahweh declares, since I shall forgive their guilt and never more call their sin to mind.’ (Jeremiah 31:33-34)

…so, according to your exegesis, the prophet Jeremiah is telling us that around the 7th century BC there was no longer any need for anyone to teach anyone else about Yahweh God… which means that the Coming of the Messiah is deemed unnecessary and all of the Writings of the New Testament are superfluous… which makes the New Covenant, the Church and all preaching of the Gospel immaterial…

…the Catholic Church Teaches differently!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Glad to hear that you have safely arrived in VA - and, hopefully you will get enough refreshing sleep. I would not want you to try responding to these posts if you are weary - and, no one wants you driving that way, either. Now, let’s take a look at what you have here…

As a heads up, I won’t allow a Scriptural contradiction. Also, systematic theology doesn’t allow “little regard for many other Scripture passages.” I explained that yesterday. Also, I don’t need to “interpret” John 10:27-30 since the direct statement from Jesus is:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.

You are right, of course, there is no contradiction in Scripture. You are also right about calling for a ‘Heads Up’ - because the issue is not scriptural contradictions, but rather, all of those personal interpretations that are in constant chaos and confusion with Scripture. Maybe a few examples will clarify this matter…

While Christ’s words are quite clear in John 10:27-30, the interpretation you have adopted is simply a misapplication. The ‘assurance’ you claim you have would have to be based on some kind of divine knowledge that you will did in the State of Grace and then be considered one of Christ’s Sheep - and, no one will take you away from Christ. But, until you are united with Christ - your free will can still be lead astray and in the end, reject God’s Love.

Let’s look at the other side of the coin that was minted by your hero John Calvin. There are some Reprobate who do not know that they are damed until they get pitched in the fire! This particular opinion of Calvin’s was so distressful to Jacobus Arminius (the once faithful follower) that he rebelled against Calvin’s view. Like it or not - the only one Calvin was sure was not damned was Calvin himself! Everyone else - beginning with his followers were never as ‘assured’ as Calvin himself. And here we have the application of Calvin’s idea about ‘Unconditinal Election’.

Now, just looking at this from a mental health stand point - it seems to me Calvin was engaged in some ‘industrial strength’ delusional thinking. But, I want you to know that I really do have a soft spot in my heart for Calvin - he never renounced his Catholic baptism that he received as an infant!

So, while you truly want to be considered as one of Christ’s Sheep - be advised - according to your hero - you could be the Devil’s Goat and not even know it! Trying to convince yourself other-wise really does run counter to Calvin’s original teachings. And, that is a problem. But, it is not the only problem!

You claim that you, “…don’t need to interpret John 10…” becaue there is a direct statement from Christ. Now, just hang onto that thought … because it has been my experience with ‘Bible only - literal only’ Protestants that clearly written words in Scripture must be explained away from their other-wise clear meaning to conform with Protestant misbeliefs. For example:

1.) Matt 16 - Christ clearly says, “Thou are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church” this was understood by the Apostles and those who followed after them to mean Peter and his successors. In the 16th Century we find this ‘big rock vs little rock’ controversy designed to discard this clear teaching.

2.) John 6 - Christ clear says, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man you will have no life in you” and this was understood by the Apostles and those who followed after them to mean that Christ’s actuall Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity - all of Christ was somehow really present before them. In the 16th Century we find that this is now called a ‘symbol’ or just a ‘rememberance’. Later on further distortion of Christ’s words lead some to substitute grape juice because they could not believe Christ actually drank alcoholic ‘wine’.

3.) Matt 28 - Christ clearly says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved and whoever does not believe will be condemned” and this is understood by the Apostles and those who followed after them to mean that baptism is necessary for salvation. In the 16Century and later there were those who claimed that baptism was not necessary - a mere ritual and an option for those who felt they needed this, and thus distorted the words of God.

So, when Christ clearly says something - you need no interpretation and believe it fully? You really can not have it both ways, OldProf. Either you are in the Scriptures literally or you are not - turning verses on their head to satisfy an agenda is not honest.

God bless

God bless

 

[thesmiter1]

There is the old adage, “The squeaky wheel gets the grease.” I’ve just arrived home after a 5.5 hour drive and it’s after 1 AM in VA. Last night I answered from my hotel room in NC. I’ll respond to you tomorrow. As a heads up, I won’t allow a Scriptural contradiction. Also, systematic theology doesn’t allow “little regard for many other Scripture passages.” I explained that yesterday. Also, I don’t need to “interpret” John 10:27-30 since the direct statement from Jesus is:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.

We know that Jesus, the good shepherd, has His sheep that won’t perish, they have eternal life, and as I’ve shown there are more backup verses that also do not need interpretation that further back this statement up and nail it down.

Regards, OldProf

When I say contradiction, I mean scripture contradicts your narrow interpretation. We have shown many, many instances where scripture shows that to be a sheep of Jesus, you have to do a lot more than ‘believe’ in the sense you are pushing, but rather believe by your life. You keep pointing to John 10, but we have already shown scripture that rejects your ‘exegesis’. Exegesis like yours, without context to the rest of scripture, would lead to a complete breakdown of scriptural interpretation, which is why you interpret it in a way that is completely contradictory to the last 2,000 years of theology. Please address ALL of the scripture we have presented, and also explain why OSAS is so recent a theological development.

found an article here that is relevant:

catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Thesmiter1,

Thanks for the link!

This is just a personal obseration that I am sharing… based on my knowledge of the lives of those 16th Century revolutionaries - the recognition for being the most tortured soul out there is John Calvin. His drive for assurance is probably best summed up as a profound loss of faith in God - but, an overpowering belief in Hell. What is really amazing to me, is that with so many in revolt - why Calvin could attract any kind of a following (especially in his effective description of God as both arbitrary and sinister - damning those from their moment of creation because it was His Will). For all of their faults, Luther and Henry VIII never even looked down that road - much less began a journey on it!

God bless

When I say contradiction, I mean scripture contradicts your narrow interpretation. We have shown many, many instances where scripture shows that to be a sheep of Jesus, you have to do a lot more than ‘believe’ in the sense you are pushing, but rather believe by your life. You keep pointing to John 10, but we have already shown scripture that rejects your ‘exegesis’. Exegesis like yours, without context to the rest of scripture, would lead to a complete breakdown of scriptural interpretation, which is why you interpret it in a way that is completely contradictory to the last 2,000 years of theology. Please address ALL of the scripture we have presented, and also explain why OSAS is so recent a theological development.

found an article here that is relevant:

catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

 

[fbl9]

I understand the example. Now think about it. If you see your child playing in the street and a car is coming, you WILL go out and pull your child off the street. God does that for the sheep, the elect of God. He “forces” them back on track. It is a very loving thing that He does.

Regards, OldProf

sorry but the anology won’t work to understand your view.
the child does not have abilty to understand it has placed itself in danger, where by choosing to sin we have and know we have put ourselves in danger.

if you consider yourself a mere child in intellect, by example of your anology, then would it not be best to do the learnin n not the teachin

OlProf i willl not discus this issue using only scripture or even any scripture because you are, by your postion, forced to either context them away,i beleive it was the verses regarding the grafting and cutting a way of branches.Or to interpret them in an entirely different way.

 

[fbl9]

if you consider yourself a mere child in intellect, by example of your anology, then would it not be best to do the learnin n not the teachin

.

Old Prof
sorry could let that one go by.

 

[OldProf]

How, exactly, do you determine a ‘true’ believer from a ‘false’ believer? That seems a little contradictory. How are there false believers, if one must only accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, and be baptized? Why are you discounting the other parts of Scripture:

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments (Mt 19: 17, KJV). This says explicitly that if you want life, keep the commandments.

Full context: Matt 19:16-30. The rich young man thinks he has kept all the commandments. But, of course he hasn’t because:

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)

He is a self-righteous rich young man who doesn’t recognize the sin in his life. His true colors are revealed as he walks away. See Acts 16:16-34 for the salvation of the Philippian Jailer - a better example.

Man, by nature, is an unrighteous sinner (Romans 3:10 and 3:23). He has no ability to make righteous choices without God’s grace. Romans 3 is pretty clear on that.

If ye love me, keep my commandments (Jn 14: 15, KJV). This implies that if you don’t love Christ, you will not keep His commandments.

And you won’t - unbelievers don’t. And believers who do love him don’t either even though they strive to (see verses above). However, the Believer (the Elect, Jesus’ sheep) will strive to keep the commandments and will confess any committed sins the Holy Spirit convicts them about. See Evidence List 2. A Believer should act as Paul writes in 1 Thess 5:12-28. Our sanctification is what gets damaged when we sin.

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love (Jn 15: 10, KJV). This explicitly says you shall remain in Christ if you keep the commandments, implying that by failing to do so, you fail to abide in Him. Of course, you’ll bring up your 500 year-old interpretation that ‘this just means to accept Him into your heart and be baptized’, even though He clearly spoke to the rich man about keeping ALL the commandments.

John 15:10-11 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

Here Jesus speaks about obedience (Evidence List 2), and we know we still occasionally sin, so per the 1 John verses I gave above, we confess our sin which God forgives. Note this verse:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (1 John 2:1)

“500 year-old interpretation”: Since we have systematic theology, and we can see evidence from the OT and NT Scriptures for eternal security, I reject your assertion out-of-hand.

You also bring up assurance, yet Paul tells us he is running a race, and working out his salvation in fear and trembling. Is he, then, a false believer? He surely wasn’t confident that he was saved at that moment. I’m sure you’ve addressed this with some ‘interpretation’. Can I ask you something: what, exactly, gives your interpretation more credence than 2,000 years of extremely meticulous and historical interpretation of both Scripture AND Tradition?

All Believers are in a race, and the race is for our sanctification. The Elect are not going to be lost, however, because once God begins a good work in us, He completes it:

For the Lord loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off. Psalm 37:28

1 Those who trust in the Lord are like Mount Zion, which cannot be moved, but abides forever. 2 As the mountains surround Jerusalem, so the Lord surrounds his people, from this time forth and forevermore. Psalm 125:1-2

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:35-40)

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2)

So, do the Sheep of Jesus, the Good Shepherd, ever perish? No.

Examine yourself, make sure you are a sheep, and have assurance (1 John 5:13). That gives full joy!

Regards, OldProf

 

[thesmiter1]

OldProf, you again reply to only one of my posts, and you again bring up scripture and interpret it according to how you view it. It was understood since the Early Church that to live in sin leads to death. Christ said that if you love Him, you will follow the Commandments. Your interpretation does not refute this.

When taking into context all that Christ said, and all that was said through Paul, it seems unfathomable to imagine that one can commit grave sins and yet be in a wonderful relationship with Christ. I sin, and I acknowledge that this hurts the relationship I have with Him. I willingly cut myself off from Him because I choose the darkness. This happens, and this is why we have confession.

Here is a great article on mortal sin (there is Scriptural basis, as well as Early Church theology to support this):

catholic.com/tracts/mortal-sin

It blatantly refutes your views that sin cannot put our salvation in jeopardy. This is in ADDITION to all of the scripture we have posted. Even going without the history of theology that points to the potential loss of salvation, the scripture we have posted is more than enough, yet you continue to ‘refute’ it with a narrow interpretation. You take the joy of Christ’s offering of salvation and change it into assurance that anyone who proclaims Him as their Lord and Savior is automatically saved.

Your example of the righteous man who walked away was a failure: Christ loved the man and was happy that He was righteous. He walked away because He had an attachment to material wealth. I have NEVER seen anyone call this man self-righteous before; he was merely unwilling to give up all he had and follow Christ. This is what Christ demands we do. Did He say ‘Proclaim me as your Savior and you will be assured of Salvation’? NO. He had to perform a tangible action that would grant Him the opportunity to follow Christ.

According to your logic, since Judas dropped everything and followed Christ, He was still assuredly saved even though He turned from Him later. He despaired and killed Himself. Is this what someone who had a healthy relationship with Christ would do? Do you not think that there is a potential for him to lose his salvation because of his later rejection of Christ? It is possible that Judas was saved; there is always hope. But you can’t possibly put this follower of Christ in the same esteem as the Apostles who REPENTED after rejecting Christ, and followed Him again.

The race IS for salvation. Paul even says to WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION IN FEAR AND TREMBLING. He does not say ‘sanctification’. He says ‘salvation’.

And why do you reject my claim of a 500 year-old theology? Because you have ‘evidence’ in the scripture? Hell, I have ‘evidence’ that when Christ comes again, only 144,000 people will be in heaven. It says so in Revelation. If I have no guide to interpretation, and perform my own ‘exegisis’, as you have, then I could come to ludicrous conclusions like this. Do you not see this?

Since I have addressed your arguments, and you still refuse to take the scripture in context, and refuse to acknowledge the immense evidence against your interpretation, both scriptural and otherwise, there is really, truly no point in continuing this dialogue. I hope that you may someday realize the wealth of knowledge and rich theology that the true Church has held since the time of Christ and His Apostles, and the wisdom of the many saints from then to now. I hope you realize that Christ’s Body should not be divided to fit your interpretation, but that His Body is guided infallibly, and always has been. May God open your heart and your eyes, and bring you to communion with the Church. The Peace of Christ be with you.

“Deliver us, Lord, we pray, from every evil,
graciously grant peace in our days,
that, by the help of your mercy,
we may be always free from sin
and safe from all distress,
as we await the blessed hope
and the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.”

 

[thesmiter1]

Also, OldProf, here’s a link for you. It quotes Scritpure extensively, showing that salvation is not guaranteed. You insist on playing the interpretation game, so here is a wealth of Scripture that rejects your theory. We also have, in the other post about mortal sin, Early Church Fathers writing about the potential loss of salvation through sin, and the extraordinary division of Protestants on this matter. You have nothing to back you up, except an ‘exegesis’ that disregards many scripture passages and theology.

Here it is. Enjoy:

scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

 

[jcrichton]

Full context: Matt 19:16-30. The rich young man thinks he has kept all the commandments. But, of course he hasn’t because:

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)

He is a self-righteous rich young man who doesn’t recognize the sin in his life. His true colors are revealed as he walks away. See Acts 16:16-34 for the salvation of the Philippian Jailer - a better example.

Man, by nature, is an unrighteous sinner (Romans 3:10 and 3:23). He has no ability to make righteous choices without God’s grace. Romans 3 is pretty clear on that.

And you won’t - unbelievers don’t. And believers who do love him don’t either even though they strive to (see verses above). However, the Believer (the Elect, Jesus’ sheep) will strive to keep the commandments and will confess any committed sins the Holy Spirit convicts them about. See Evidence List 2. A Believer should act as Paul writes in 1 Thess 5:12-28. Our sanctification is what gets damaged when we sin.

John 15:10-11 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

Here Jesus speaks about obedience (Evidence List 2), and we know we still occasionally sin, so per the 1 John verses I gave above, we confess our sin which God forgives. Note this verse:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (1 John 2:1)

“500 year-old interpretation”: Since we have systematic theology, and we can see evidence from the OT and NT Scriptures for eternal security, I reject your assertion out-of-hand.

All Believers are in a race, and the race is for our sanctification. The Elect are not going to be lost, however, because once God begins a good work in us, He completes it:

For the Lord loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off. Psalm 37:28

1 Those who trust in the Lord are like Mount Zion, which cannot be moved, but abides forever. 2 As the mountains surround Jerusalem, so the Lord surrounds his people, from this time forth and forevermore. Psalm 125:1-2

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:35-40)

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2)

So, do the Sheep of Jesus, the Good Shepherd, ever perish? No.

Examine yourself, make sure you are a sheep, and have assurance (1 John 5:13). That gives full joy!

Regards, OldProf

OldProf, you know who also had a systematic approach to Scriptures?.. well, Jesus called them hypocrites and the blind leading the blind… remember them now? …you call me Lord, Lord, but do not do what I say! …those were not words to the humble… they were words to the wise whose systematic approach kept them from Believing and accepting God’s Revelations…

Your efforts in having the knowledge that you do not lose salvation is as erroneous and as prideful as the rich young man… who did not err because he kept the commandments (which you seem to imply that it denotes sinful pride) but erred because Jesus told him to give up his temporal acquisitions, to give to the poor, and to come back and Follow Jesus… yeah, it is hard to give up temporal treasure and humbly submit to Christ’s Authority and Command!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

I must confess … I was really disappointed with your latest posts. Not only did they not adequately address the topic you chose - you neglected to address your previous topics… and, that is a shame. You realize that you are on CAF and, you are interacting with Catholics who - really do - have a 2,000 year view as opposed to a 500 year view of what is going on. But, it would be misleading to think that length of time provides real insights - the issue is that Christ promised the Holy Spirit to the Catholic Church to keep Her from ever teaching error.

Now, to summarily ‘reject out of hand’ a logical statement simply because you do not agree with it - does not show much of a spirit of dialogue. The entire focus of theads like this on CAF is to encourage diaglogue - so, may I suggest you retract your outright ‘reject’ statement and actually address the issues preseted by Fbl9, Tsmiter1 and Jcrichton. To ignore their concerns really short-circuits your own learning opportunities. Once you address their issues, I invite you to address mine. Ultimately, I want to encourage you not to evade these topics - especially with assorted statements about educational accomplishments. The proof of the pudding is to make sense and you actually hold a topic together and respond to the very real criticisms your comments have generated.

God bless

Full context: Matt 19:16-30. The rich young man thinks he has kept all the commandments. But, of course he hasn’t because:

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)

He is a self-righteous rich young man who doesn’t recognize the sin in his life. His true colors are revealed as he walks away. See Acts 16:16-34 for the salvation of the Philippian Jailer - a better example.

Man, by nature, is an unrighteous sinner (Romans 3:10 and 3:23). He has no ability to make righteous choices without God’s grace. Romans 3 is pretty clear on that.

And you won’t - unbelievers don’t. And believers who do love him don’t either even though they strive to (see verses above). However, the Believer (the Elect, Jesus’ sheep) will strive to keep the commandments and will confess any committed sins the Holy Spirit convicts them about. See Evidence List 2. A Believer should act as Paul writes in 1 Thess 5:12-28. Our sanctification is what gets damaged when we sin.

John 15:10-11 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

Here Jesus speaks about obedience (Evidence List 2), and we know we still occasionally sin, so per the 1 John verses I gave above, we confess our sin which God forgives. Note this verse:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (1 John 2:1)

“500 year-old interpretation”: Since we have systematic theology, and we can see evidence from the OT and NT Scriptures for eternal security, I reject your assertion out-of-hand.

All Believers are in a race, and the race is for our sanctification. The Elect are not going to be lost, however, because once God begins a good work in us, He completes it:

For the Lord loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off. Psalm 37:28

1 Those who trust in the Lord are like Mount Zion, which cannot be moved, but abides forever. 2 As the mountains surround Jerusalem, so the Lord surrounds his people, from this time forth and forevermore. Psalm 125:1-2

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:35-40)

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2)

So, do the Sheep of Jesus, the Good Shepherd, ever perish? No.

Examine yourself, make sure you are a sheep, and have assurance (1 John 5:13). That gives full joy!

Regards, OldProf

 

[fbl9]

Full context: Matt 19:16-30. The rich young man thinks he has kept all the commandments. But, of course he hasn’t because:

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)

He is a self-righteous rich young man who doesn’t recognize the sin in his life. His true colors are revealed as he walks away. See Acts 16:16-34 for the salvation of the Philippian Jailer - a better example.

Man, by nature, is an unrighteous sinner (Romans 3:10 and 3:23). He has no ability to make righteous choices without God’s grace. Romans 3 is pretty clear on that.

Regards, OldProf

What was that verse about judging another? Reading the following verses Christ makes no mention of sin but of what the rich man loved.

“if you want to be perfect…” that is not a condemnation. For truly Christ knew the deeds of this rich man. “sell what you have and follow Me” i didn’t see any where Christ corrected the young man to your view…

 

[OldProf]

Permit me to speak for a moment from my heart.

1. My attitude toward the doctrine of salvation. It is THE single most important biblical doctrine because of the eternal ramifications - eternal life or eternal damnation for the human soul. When I teach engineering classes, the students enjoy my jokes and levity that spice up the lectures. But I’m pretty serious when I study and discuss salvation. That’s the side you have seen of me for the most part on this thread.
2. My attitude toward Roman Catholic’s. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Period. But, that is true if and only if they are elect. It’s the same for Protestants. I have been in one Bible study (1994) where an Air Force officer called himself an “Evangelical Catholic” and we had good fellowship. He had different viewpoints and we dug into the Scriptures to look at them. I think he was elect, and though we have lost touch, I believe we will renew our friendship in heaven. He matched right up with Evidence Lists 1 & 2, even though we did have some differences of theology. But I also have a disturbing observation. The Roman Catholics I meet in person do not attend Bible studies nor do they seem to have any interest in them. This includes some members of my family. If as Christians, “we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor 2:16), then why do they not hunger to know the Scriptures and know God? My Protestant friends are all about knowing God and knowing the Bible.
3. I studied for almost 8 years with a group of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are not my brothers and sisters in Christ because they believe and worship a god that does not exist. If Romney gets elected President, I would have no problem telling him he is not a Christian because he believes in gods that do not exist and in a false prophet (I’ve studied with Mormons, too, but the young “Elder’s” the sent to my home kept changing and alternating to the point that a relationship could never be established - I’ve spent about a year in studies with a few of them, and they were almost all Eagle Scouts). And I would tell Romney he is is NOT going to attain Godhead.
4. My attitude toward atheists. This is where I have spent the most time, 19 years, explaining the bankruptcy of that belief system. The challenge comes from the fact that degreed university professors have a great deal of pride which must be dealt with - by no means a simple process.

I am so very grateful to God that he has given us His Scriptures and His Church. Paul writes to Timothy, “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” (2 Tim 3:15) From God’s persective, before the ink was dry in this letter by Paul, God knew this too was His Scriptures, regardless of when the Church accepted it into the canon. And we also know what the Church is from Paul who, speaking to the gentile believers in the Church at Ephesis, wrote,

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

There is considerable fellowship and Bible study in the reformed Church that I attend. Christ and His Word are taken very seriously.

God Bless, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Now back to the topic at hand, “Assurance of Salvation.”

The primary text is John 10:27-30. Also 1 John 5:13. These are direct statements.

My argument has to do with what Jesus specifically said. He said His sheep never perish, and in the Greek, it actually means never, not now or at any future time. That was my argument way back in Post #42 on 31 Mar 12. Please check it out and note John 10:28 in the Amplified version:

“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.” (On the internet, Biblegateway has this translation along with many others.)

I also have shown the consistancy of this biblcal text (John 10:27-30) with the following:

John 6:37-40 What the Father gives to Jesus, Jesus shall raise up without losing any.
Romans 8:1 We are not under any condemnation
Romans 8:31 If God is for us it doesn’t matter who may be against us
Romans 8:39 Nothing in all creation will separate us from the love of God
(I’m pretty sure Paul included this one for those who say we can choose to leave on our own. Romans 8 is one of the strongest eternal security and assurance chapters in all the Bible.)
Philippians 1:6 What God begins he finishes
Hebrews 12:2 God is the author and finisher of our faith
1 John 5:13 that you can KNOW that you have eternal life

And there are many others (for example, Norman Geisler’s Systematic Theology, ISBN 9780764206030, 2011, pp. 811-1074, provides 263 pages to the subject of salvation, with discussions of all the different theological views and arguments), but the above verses are enough to make the point.

You need to recognize something very important in handling direct biblical statements. When Jesus says His sheep will never perish, and you say, they certainly can perish in hell, you are actually correcting those direct statements. The verses I just gave above are all wrong and need to be corrected. Jesus, Paul, John - they all make these direct statements that need correction.

Are you absolutely sure you want to say that?

It is interesting how often website scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html gets referenced as if it provides a source of scholarship. It doesn’t. Here is what it says about John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Though a typical comment, just remember, that is NOT what Jesus clearly said, is it? Adding to the Scriptures is called “eisegesis” and is common when a specific theology which doesn’t agree with a Scriptural statement is intended. In this case, it would be mortal sin, which opens the possibility that a sheep could indeed perish. I reviewed this above website before my first post on this thread. If you go to Post #2, you will see the first time it is referenced on this thread. And this website does not even reference 1 John 5:13 at all. Very unimpressive!

Therefore, it does not deal with the direct statements of Scripture germane to the subject of the assurance of salvation. It is not even close to the level of a systematic theology textbook.

Does anyone out there even have one of these textbooks? Perhaps you don’t even know what I’m talking about and don’t see any value in them. But what they do accomplish is a removal of any eisegetical additions. The analysis they provide is very careful which is why they provide such an essential study aid.

Bottom Line: My desire is to know the truth about salvation. God knows my prayers and will honor that.

More to come (you guys have been piling it on).

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

I do not think anyone has said you have been inconsistent. You have consistently repeated the same statements - and, that is fine as far as it goes. The snag comes in because it does not go far enough. You are not responding to the specific questions that have challenged your assertion - so, merely restating the assertion does not advance dialogue.

No power can take anything away from God - I think everyone agrees with that statement. The problem comes in with your claim that you are ‘assured of salvation’ - are on of the Sheep Christ has referenced - and know this now. Notwithstanding Calvin’s view - we all have a Free Will - and can chose to work with the Grace of God or chose to not work with it. God, however, will not force us to love Him. And, here is the heart of the matter. The denial of God’s Gift of Free Will to each of us - as Calvin claims - flies against both OT and NT Scriptures.

For example look at two OT kings: Saul and David. The former was chosen by God to lead the Jews and, at first, did a good job. But, Saul gradually hardened his heart against God by repeatd sin and refused to obey God’s commands - losing God’s favor. David was also chosen by God to lead the Jews, and he too did a good job at first. While David also sinned - he did nto harden his heart against God - and this enabled him to cooperate with God’s Grace are to repent. Both men had experienced the Power of God in their lives - so neither was ignorant of God’s love for Israel and of His blessings. But, both lived totally different lives and Saul be a case study on the abuse of Free Will.

May I suggest that you move away from the dismissive approach you have taken to the response of others. While you may not agree with ScriptureCatholic - it would be a much better approach if you responded to the challenged put forth with this being used as a reference - rather then just criticizing the site claiming it does not provide scholarship. I submit that real scholarship is demonstrated by responding to sincerely delivered criticism with the facts of your case as opposed to the back of your hand. What has become evident is that you are simply repeated previous statements and not responding to the criticism against your statements.

We have Faith and Hope that we will be counted as the Sheep - but, not the knowledge of assurance because there is far more involved then just hearing the word - or in even saying, “Lord, Lord!”. St. Paul tells us we must be doers of the Word (and, that means works! )

God bless

Now back to the topic at hand, “Assurance of Salvation.”

The primary text is John 10:27-30. Also 1 John 5:13. These are direct statements.

My argument has to do with what Jesus specifically said. He said His sheep never perish, and in the Greek, it actually means never, not now or at any future time. That was my argument way back in Post #42 on 31 Mar 12. Please check it out and note John 10:28 in the Amplified version:

“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.” (On the internet, Biblegateway has this translation along with many others.)

You need to recognize something very important in handling direct biblical statements. When Jesus says His sheep will never perish, and you say, they certainly can perish in hell, you are actually correcting those direct statements. The verses I just gave above are all wrong and need to be corrected. Jesus, Paul, John - they all make these direct statements that need correction.

Are you absolutely sure you want to say that?

It is interesting how often website scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html gets referenced as if it provides a source of scholarship. It doesn’t. Here is what it says about John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Though a typical comment, just remember, that is NOT what Jesus clearly said, is it? Adding to the Scriptures is called “eisegesis” and is common when a specific theology which doesn’t agree with a Scriptural statement is intended. In this case, it would be mortal sin, which opens the possibility that a sheep could indeed perish. I reviewed this above website before my first post on this thread. If you go to Post #2, you will see the first time it is referenced on this thread. And this website does not even reference 1 John 5:13 at all. Very unimpressive!

Therefore, it does not deal with the direct statements of Scripture germane to the subject of the assurance of salvation. It is not even close to the level of a systematic theology textbook.

Does anyone out there even have one of these textbooks? Perhaps you don’t even know what I’m talking about and don’t see any value in them. But what they do accomplish is a removal of any eisegetical additions. The analysis they provide is very careful which is why they provide such an essential study aid.

Bottom Line: My desire is to know the truth about salvation. God knows my prayers and will honor that.

More to come (you guys have been piling it on).

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Hi, OldProf,

I do not think anyone has said you have been inconsistent. You have consistently repeated the same statements - and, that is fine as far as it goes. The snag comes in because it does not go far enough. You are not responding to the specific questions that have challenged your assertion - so, merely restating the assertion does not advance dialogue.

No power can take anything away from God - I think everyone agrees with that statement. The problem comes in with your claim that you are ‘assured of salvation’ - are on of the Sheep Christ has referenced - and know this now. Notwithstanding Calvin’s view - we all have a Free Will - and can chose to work with the Grace of God or chose to not work with it. God, however, will not force us to love Him. And, here is the heart of the matter. The denial of God’s Gift of Free Will to each of us - as Calvin claims - flies against both OT and NT Scriptures.

For example look at two OT kings: Saul and David. The former was chosen by God to lead the Jews and, at first, did a good job. But, Saul gradually hardened his heart against God by repeatd sin and refused to obey God’s commands - losing God’s favor. David was also chosen by God to lead the Jews, and he too did a good job at first. While David also sinned - he did nto harden his heart against God - and this enabled him to cooperate with God’s Grace are to repent. Both men had experienced the Power of God in their lives - so neither was ignorant of God’s love for Israel and of His blessings. But, both lived totally different lives and Saul be a case study on the abuse of Free Will.

May I suggest that you move away from the dismissive approach you have taken to the response of others. While you may not agree with ScriptureCatholic - it would be a much better approach if you responded to the challenged put forth with this being used as a reference - rather then just criticizing the site claiming it does not provide scholarship. I submit that real scholarship is demonstrated by responding to sincerely delivered criticism with the facts of your case as opposed to the back of your hand. What has become evident is that you are simply repeated previous statements and not responding to the criticism against your statements.

We have Faith and Hope that we will be counted as the Sheep - but, not the knowledge of assurance because there is far more involved then just hearing the word - or in even saying, “Lord, Lord!”. St. Paul tells us we must be doers of the Word (and, that means works! )

God bless

Hi Tom,

I will accept this as good advice and tell you I appreciate your spirit in this discussion. It seems the crux of the issue is how can we tell that we are sheep. In the two “evidence” lists I gave, self-examination per Paul (2 Cor 13:5) is something we do really to determine that very thing. What is your opinion of the “evidence” lists?

I guess you would agree that the sheep, the elect of God (a good verse for that is Acts 13:48 in the message of salvation to the Gentiles), will never perish. When you examine yourself, can you not trust what John says in 1st John as well? I am a bit baffled by that.

I would agree with you (and the Apostle James) that good works provide evidence of our faith. They will flow from the elect, don’t you agree (Eph 2:10)?

Regards, OldProf