Assurance of Salvation

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

OK … now, I really did not think you were going to be convinced on this… but, I did think it was worth a try.

Here are just two items from me… and let me know what you think of them.

1.) Let’s say that Scripture and all that surrounds it - has NOTHING to do with ‘AoS’!! But, don’t think in terms of this being on ‘thin ice’ - rather for about 400 years from the birth of Christ - there was no Canon of Sacred Scripture. The earliest NT text seems to be 1Thes (written about 51AD) and the last book is Revelations (written about 92AD) errantskeptics.org/DatingNT-ChronologicalOrder.htm . But, merely writing a book does not get into circulation - and with the Gnostic writers out there - there were a lot of bogus texts. There were also pious books that, while good in themselves, were not inspired.

It is really not until 382AD that we have the development of the Canon and this continued until about 419AD (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon ) Prior to these dates no official collection of the New Testament texts existed. This does not mean that nothing existed - only that the determination on what was inspired and what wasn’t had not been made. So, there was a high degree of variability. Yet, the followers of Christ can be dated from the beginning of Christ Public Ministery (about 30AD). The question could be asked then, where does ‘AoS’ fit in from 30-382? And, the answer is: it never fit in then just like it does not fit in today. The criteria we must look at is what kept the early Catholic Church going during this time - and it is the actual practice of the Church. And, the proof of that pudding is that it was the Catholic Church that established the Canon to begin with - and it is the Catholic Church that gives the clear and infallible interpretation of what Scripture means. Finally, it is the Catholic Church that Calvin split from and that same Catholic Church condemned Calvin’s "AoS’ as heresy.

Now, I realize full well that Protestantism has intentionally crippled itself by claiming ‘Sola Scriptura’ as the only acceptable authority - and to further muddy the waters - personal interpretation was added. There is no definitive and infallible basis for Protestantism to say: this is what this means - and this explains why there are 30,000+ various Protestant groups all claiming to be right and all disagreeing with one another.

And, it is because the Catholic Chruch has declared ‘AoS’ a heresy that it is wrong and a postive danger for those seeking eternal salvation. So, just tell me why you disagree with this.

2.) I am surprised about your claim to the belief in having a Free Will. Honest. My understanding is that Calvin denied this. (Here is a Protestant source: vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_freewill.html … and, it may give you some extra Scriptural items you can use… ) So, the only obvious item is to ask: what do you mean by believing in Free Will?

I believe that God made Man in His Image and with the power to choose to obey or disobey God’s Law. For a far more scholarly explanation of this - here is a link you may enjoy: newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm

God bless

Well, Tom, I have this to say as I read your post at work during the lunch hour:

1. “Here is a link that honestly addresses your argument, and simply refutes it: http://www.catholicbasictraining.com…setexts/1s.htm”

Nope. Doesn’t refute it, and it isn’t a good argument because it ignores important verses and doesn’t even explain well the ones it “takes on.” I’ll dismantle it and show just how far it misses the point, if you prefer. I don’t know who originally wrote it, perhaps Kenneth Baker or Pablo Straub, but this won’t convince a proponent of systematic theology. We prefer to look and comment on ALL texts pertinent to the theological doctrines (biblical soteriology being supreme!). That is one of the reasons I believe we have such a strong case for assurance and eternal security (or OSAS, or sometimes I call it “if saved always saved”).

1. “here is a link: http://www.usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/9”

Okay, read it. I see that their interpretation agrees with yours, which is no surprise, of course. So, since this is a RC commentary, I thought I’d look at another super well known Scripture, Romans 8, that talks about separating someone from God’s love. Paul makes a pretty strong point that it will NOT happen. He even emphasizes it:

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:37-39)

So, what do the commentators say?? They don’t address that. Nor do they provide a valuable or enlightening commentary on 1 John 5:13 where John says, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” Doesn’t John seem to emphasize that a believer may know that they have eternal life? (AKA “Assurance” - but I still have your response to answer from the earlier post where you think I’m taking it out of context.)

And, no, I do not deny free will.

So, that is a quick look-see and comment. Back to work.

Regards, OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

We are in basic agreement in the first paragraph. You say PERSEVERENCE is a requirement, i.e. the Free Will idea that a true sheep, one of the elect of God, can actually choose not to persevere (aka mortal sin), is where I would quibble with you. I would say that perseverence is exactly what the elect DO. It is on my evidence list 2. This is why “God really does know who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell - and he has known this from all eternity” as you say and we agree. The elect persevere. The elect abide in Christ. The elect love the Lord Jesus Christ and and keep His commandments. The elect have TRUE free will and can choose righteousness and sin.

The next paragraph is not correct, because I don’t think a profession of faith means a person is saved. Notice something. Matt 7:21-23 Jesus speaks of professing Christians who seem to have assurance that they are going to heaven, but they’re not (my evidence list 1). Jesus says he never knew them! Ouch! This is why we must examine ourselves. And there is this:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19

This is the “Christian” that attends Church, may even be quite active for awhile, but then leaves the faith. They were, in fact, never a Christian at all. Profession is not possession. I gave the evidence lists because there are a lot of Scriptures to back them up. See below.

(Jerome - Free Will. I haven’t researched that, but he was not known to be nearly the theologian that Augustine was.)

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Cor 5:17

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

Why am I one of the elect? Paul tells me I’m a new creation, and that has been my sure experience. My thinking changed so radically. My desire to know God and study the Bible has come alive - I never gave the Bible any time before 1993.

Why am I one of the elect? John says I can know that I have eternal life. I’ve studied the doctrine of salvation, and the evidence lists 1 and 2 have significant biblical texts to back them up. The elect have true free will (restored by God’s grace), and they are Children of God. I can see biblical support for punishment and loss of rewards, but not loss of salvation. I can agree with Paul when he writes, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Php 1:6. I can have a real peace, as Paul writes, “And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.” Php 4:7

Tom, can you agree with Paul?

Do you think that, after I have examined myself to the biblical standard to see that I am in the faith, I should question John and say, “Well, you say I can know, but I really can’t be sure because I haven’t persevered to the very end yet, so how can I really know?”

I would prefer not to question the Apostle John on this one. I’d rather enjoy the peace I have in Christ and share the gospel and earnestly contend for the faith (Jude 3).

Sincerely, OldProf

…heard this one?:

Everyone, no matter how firmly he thinks he is standing, must be careful he does not fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

…and:

2 My dear friends, we are already God’s children, but what we shall be in the future has not yet been revealed. We are well aware that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he really is. 3 Whoever treasures this hope of him purifies himself, to be as pure as he is. 4 Whoever sins, acts wickedly, because all sin is wickedness. 5 Now you are well aware that he has appeared in order to take sins away, and that in him there is no sin. 6 No one who remains in him sins, and whoever sins has neither seen him nor recognised him. 7 Children, do not let anyone lead you astray. Whoever acts uprightly is upright, just as he is upright. 8 Whoever lives sinfully belongs to the devil, since the devil has been a sinner from the beginning. This was the purpose of the appearing of the Son of God, to undo the work of the devil. 9 No one who is a child of God sins because God’s seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. 10 This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God. (1 St. John 3:2-10)

…so the Teaching of the Apostles is clear:
a) God is the Only Pure Being
b) those in God, and more importantly those who remain in God so that God Lives in them, are sons/children of God
c) all who sin are the Devil’s
d) those who do not live uprightly (without sin) and do not love their brother (Christian fellowship) is not from God
e) Life is God’s not of those who claim/believe that they are Life
f) even Believers can suffer from self-confidense and fall
g) even Believers can be lead astray

…yeah… no eternal “me, saved” in Scriptures!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[guanophore]

Okay, read it. I see that their interpretation agrees with yours, which is no surprise, of course. So, since this is a RC commentary, I thought I’d look at another super well known Scripture, Romans 8, that talks about separating someone from God’s love. Paul makes a pretty strong point that it will NOT happen. He even emphasizes it:

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:37-39)

So, what do the commentators say?? They don’t address that.

I have seen this mistake made by every systematic theologist I have debated. It seems that there is a conflation here with God’s love and His salvation. God loves every human being He creates. He loves those who are yet sinners, and died for them. He loves those who are in darkness, and dead in sins. Just because He loves them, that does not mean they will all be saved. God’s love is free and liberating. He does not hold anyone hostage by it, but allows all those He loves to walk away from Him, or turn their back on him. The fact that nothing can separate us from His love is not the same as saying we are saved by His love. He will watch a person walk right through the gates of hell, if that is what they choose.

Nor do they provide a valuable or enlightening commentary on 1 John 5:13 where John says, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” Doesn’t John seem to emphasize that a believer may know that they have eternal life? (AKA “Assurance” - but I still have your response to answer from the earlier post where you think I’m taking it out of context.)

Yes I think Tom addressed this right on point. The statement is made in the context of obedience to God’s commandments, to remaining in obedience to Him. One cannot separate this “knowing” from the lifestyle that is described in the previous chapters.

And, no, I do not deny free will.

Perhaps it is your redefinition of what free will is that makes it seem to us like you deny it.

The free will concept is really governed by the notion of total depravity, a concept not found in the Apostolic faith.

 

[jcrichton]

Tom, I believe you are speaking of me regarding Scriptures I have provided when you say, “once examimed they are simply taken out of context.” Obviously I DO NOT want to do that. I’m on CA to understand RCC arguments and correct my theology if it is in error. I know it grieves the Holy Spirit when I get the Scriptures wrong. If the Scriptures do not teach assurance of salvation, then I’m grieving the Holy Spirit. If they do, the you are grieving the Holy Spirit.

In my post #626 I answered your question, “So, please, explain why it is you think that you are one of the Sheep, one of the Elect and one who is ‘Assured’ of being in Heaven…” Here is my answer again. Please review it and help me to understand just what it is that I am taking out of context.

*Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Cor 5:17

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

Why am I one of the elect? Paul tells me I’m a new creation, and that has been my sure experience. My thinking changed so radically. My desire to know God and study the Bible has come alive - I never gave the Bible any time before 1993.

Why am I one of the elect? John says I can know that I have eternal life. I’ve studied the doctrine of salvation, and the evidence lists 1 and 2 have significant biblical texts to back them up. The elect have true free will (restored by God’s grace), and they are Children of God. I can see biblical support for punishment and loss of rewards, but not loss of salvation. I can agree with Paul when he writes, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Php 1:6. I can have a real peace, as Paul writes, “And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.” Php 4:7*

Since I’ve studied AoS quite a bit, and I really do think the context of the few Scriptures I have provided above supports my AoS belief (and rejects your argument), please help me see the errors of my ways you indicate I must have. I’ll be very grateful for proper correction.

Sincerely, OldProf

OldProf… it cannot be done because you have already detremined that you are right… even when Scriptures tell you that you are not!:

No one who remains in him sins, and whoever sins has neither seen him nor recognised him. (1 St. John 3:6)

…Salvation is not an eternal “saved” ticket because Scriptures tells us that:

8 If we say, ‘We have no sin,’ we are deceiving ourselves, and truth has no place in us; 9 if we acknowledge our sins, he is trustworthy and upright, so that he will forgive our sins and will cleanse us from all evil. 10 If we say, ‘We have never sinned,’ we make him a liar, and his word has no place in us. (1 St. John 1:8-10)

…since none is free of sin, all are sinners!

It is by abiding in Christ that we become that new Creature!:

5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch – and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for whatever you please and you will get it. 8 It is to the glory of my Father that you should bear much fruit and be my disciples. 9 I have loved you just as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. (St. John 15:5-10)

…it is not quoting Scritures nor claiming assurance of Salvation that Saves… it is Christ! We must remain in Christ and He in us… only by keeping His Commandments can we remain in Christ!

…please do not grieve the Holy Spirit by seeking a shortcut into Salvation!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

adrift, since you are a synergist, then God and you have cooperated for your salvation when you die in a state of grace. Your good works and lack of mortal sin provided your part of the equation.

Thus, the glory for your salvation goes to both God, the initiator of your salvation, and you, the completer of your salvation.

Isn’t that true? (And their are a few Scriptures that, in context, reject that view.)

No contradiction on my part. Good works are certainly in my evidence list 2. The elect do good works in response to gifts of the Holy Spirit. First and foremost we are most thankful for eternal life as per “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23. What a fantastic and great gift to be grateful for and to motivate us unto good works! Let us share that GREAT NEWS!

You are completely incorrect when you say I brush aside or ignore Scriptures. Systematic theology doesn’t allow that.

Did you really read the links I gave? If Judas is in heaven, then apparently he was one of the elect, the sheep, and he could be possessed by Satan (which I think would go against Scripture), but somehow he was able to repent. If he is in hell, then he, being elect, being a sheep, can really perish, in which case we need to correct Jesus (John 10:27-28 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

Isn’t it clear that Judas was chosen to fulfill the Scriptures that led to Christ’s crucifixion? That he was of the devil? That is the value of the links I gave to demonstrate the clarity of that argument.

What is the RCC infallible teaching on Judas???

Regards, OldProf

Christ’s Church Teaches that God, not man, determines who ends up in Hell… that Judas’ fate (as that of every other human being) is not tied to our limited understanding of Justice and Mercy… that it is Only God’s Divine Understanding that determines who and why anyone ends up in Hell…

…but I understand that in your personal infallible mind you are secured salvation and you can determine who must end up in Hell!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Will do, but for completeness, what about the context of this verse:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

I would fit this verse.

Has this ever been addressed by you? If so, when and I’ll take that into account on my response. If not, please address this verse since it is a main AoS verse.

Thanks, OldProf

…again… you keep missing Scriptures… it is not that we are eternally saved because we think or because we believe that we are but:

because every child of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world – our faith. (1 St. John 5:4)

…it is Faith in Christ, which is proven by our Love of Him, which is proven by our faithfullness to His Commandments, that Saves!:

3 You are clean already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. (St. John 15:3-5)

…again… empty clause is an empty clause… it is Jesus Who Saves!

If you were true to Scriptures as much as you claim to be you would clearly understand that Jesus is speaking to the Disciples and claims them as His (you are clean already); but the Master does not alllow them to fall into a false sense of security telling them that since they are His they have warrented “eternal salvation;” rather, He cautions them to “Remain in Me!”

Maran atha!

Angel

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jcrichton,

Excellent post!

You know, while all heresies are destructive, in my opinion, there may be some heresies may be more destructive then others. The idea that no matter what the Devil throws at these self-proclaimed ‘Sheep’ he is just going to fail to steal their immortal soul. And, while the Devil may be a lot of things, he is not stupid! But, since these folks will never be damned - my guess is that he will use his energies more productively… leaving the self-proclaimed ‘Sheep’ alone and just going through the motions on tempting the sure-to-be-damned souls. After all, the Devil is going to get these souls no matter what, eh?

I don’t know about you - but, I have more respect for what the Devil is capable of then I have seen expressed here - just like I have a lot of respect for a poisonous snake! The Devil has nothing but energy - he’s a 24/7/365 kind of hellish monster - who really just has the damnation of souls he has tricked on his mind.

Now, if we take the idea of ‘AoS’ as a creation of the Devil himselff… well … he is much too ‘humble’ to take earthly credit … he would just as soon pass this on to the humans he has deceived. And, right now he must be laughing his ‘horns’ off at how this deceptive foolishness has lead so many astray!

Scripture has many examples of people who managed to fall for the Devil’s lies - and then managed to convince others that wrong is right and deceiving them, too.

God bless

…heard this one?:

…and:

…so the Teaching of the Apostles is clear:
a) God is the Only Pure Being
b) those in God, and more importantly those who remain in God so that God Lives in them, are sons/children of God
c) all who sin are the Devil’s
d) those who do not live uprightly (without sin) and do not love their brother (Christian fellowship) is not from God
e) Life is God’s not of those who claim/believe that they are Life
f) even Believers can suffer from self-confidense and fall
g) even Believers can be lead astray

…yeah… no eternal “me, saved” in Scriptures!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I meant to say that 1 John 5:13 is a verse that would fit in with my response. It is a primary AoS verse that I do not recall seeing addressed. Tom, can you address it? Did I miss something?

Regards, OldProf

…again, citing a verse or a group of verses divorced from the rest of Scriptures means very little since Scriptures call be made to mean almost anything (including that we do not need to teach others about God or that et can be found in Scriptures or that Saul fell of a horse or that Jesus wrote the sins of the crowd on the ground…) when you continue to read 1 St. John 5 into the very next verse we have the very same Apostle speak of a sin that can be forgiven just by personal prayer of those who witness it… but then he warns that there is a sin that is to death… for which the witnesses should not pray…

Can you see it now?

There is sin that leads to death!

Death does not equate to “eternally saved!”

The sin that leads to Death must be fought off by the person that commits it… and it is Christ Who Commands that we seek forgiveness of sin not that we claim “eternal salvation.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[guanophore]

OldProf I searched the thread and did not find any references to Hebrews and the notion that a persons who can fall from grace. Has this passage already been covered, or is there no point covering it because you believe the passage does not apply to Christians?

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt. 7 Ground that drinks up the rain falling on it repeatedly, and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and on the verge of being cursed; its end is to be burned over.

I have been told by some systematic theologists that Hebrews is not addressed to Christians, and that since it applies to Jews only, modern/Gentile Christians are under a different covenant etc. etc.

 

[jcrichton]

First Paragraph Response: I’ll run through my thinking on this so you know how I see what you write.

Okay, Tom, I would agree that we are “to love God with our whole heart, mind and strength AND our neighbor as ourself” which is Jesus’ summation of following the commandments (Mark 12:30-31), but I have to ask how? Aren’t we described as “dead”? What ability does the dead man have?

“But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.” Matt 8:22. Obviously meaning let the spiritually dead bury the physically dead.

Paul then says, “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience — among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.” (Eph 2:1-4)

Who is Paul referring to? Read Eph 1 - those chosen by God to which Paul says, “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph 1:13-14) So we know Paul writes to Christians who were chosen by God who believe and are sealed by the Holy Spirit but who were once “dead” - meaning spritually dead.

Does the “dead man” have ANY ability to do the righteous act of following the commandments? Paul says, “No.” In fact, he says it emphatically when speaking about the natural man in the first part of Romans. Per Romans 3:9-12 we have Paul’s testimony that no one does anything good or righteous. And that is the problem of the spiritually dead person. We need righteousness. Works are not going to accomplish that (Romans 3:20), but the righteousness of God comes to the believer by faith (Romans 3:21-26).

Faith comes from God’s grace per Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

So God does a work in us that takes us from spiritual death to spiritual life. Some examples:

Gentiles: Acts 13:48 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”

Lydia: Acts 16:14 “One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.”

You say it’s a process. But I think it’s a birth. Some examples:

John 1:12-13 “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

So, from the Scriptures, I cannot see how a “dead” person can make a righteous decision to follow the commandments and have faith in Jesus without being regenerated by God, meaning given spiritual life by God. This is why Jesus said,

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:37-40

Those are some of my thoughts. More to come as I continue to respond to more of your post. I’m trying to make sure I cover all the bases you seem to think I miss.

Regards, OldProf

19 And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. 20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up; (St. John 3:19-20)

Those who commit evil refuse the Light!

6 If we say that we share in God’s life while we are living in darkness, we are lying, because we are not living the truth. 7 But if we live in light, as he is in light, we have a share in another’s life, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say, ‘We have no sin,’ we are deceiving ourselves, and truth has no place in us; 9 if we acknowledge our sins, he is trustworthy and upright, so that he will forgive our sins and will cleanse us from all evil. 10 If we say, ‘We have never sinned,’ we make him a liar, and his word has no place in us.

1 My children, I am writing this to prevent you from sinning; but if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the upright. 2 He is the sacrifice to expiate our sins, and not only ours, but also those of the whole world. 3 In this way we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says, ‘I know him’ without keeping his commandments, is a liar, and truth has no place in him. 5 But anyone who does keep his word, in such a one God’s love truly reaches its perfection. This is the proof that we are in God. 6 Whoever claims to remain in him must act as he acted. (1 St. John 1:6-10 through 2:1-6)

Scriptures continue to place Jesus at the Center of Salvation and demands that we emulate Christ and seek forgiveness of our sins in Christ as proof that we are children of the Light–not a single clause is presented as a means to “eternally saved ones!”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

You have finally answered 1 John 5:13 and, yes, I have a response. If it were a chess game, I would announce mate in 2. But, as I’m at work and under a time crunch, that can wait. I’m happy to see you are no longer avoiding this wonderful verse that tells us we can know we have eternal life.

We would have to qualify what we can understand about Scripture. All of it? No. But some of it is clear enough - just look at what you wrote above. Very, very clear.

I certainly could comment on John 6, and even summarize it, but I am on an AoS thread and so are you. Chess players of master class know how to press an advantage when a weakness is exposed. The weakness here is a faulty doctrine of assurance, I believe, coupled with a faulty doctrine that allows Jesus’ sheep to perish by their own free will.

I look forward to answering this one.

Regards, OldProf

…the weakness is understanding… free will means just that: man has the freedom to oppose God… every single human being has this God-Given-Grant!

…even those who get to know Jesus can and have given up Christ’s Sacrificial Offering and have embraced the world’s entoxicating gifts… just check out who has been commander in chief in the US’s presidency… a “Christian” that rejects Christ, embraces non-Christian religion, orders mass-murder of babies, and silences Christian thought (check out how many “Christians” support him!)… you believe that it is God’s Will that those who claim Christ’s Name embrace the world… or do you believe it is God’s Will that those who come to know Christ and reject Christ’s Teaching still remain “eternally saved” because they were the elect (St. John 1:1-14)?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Jcrichton,

Excellent post!

You know, while all heresies are destructive, in my opinion, there may be some heresies may be more destructive then others. The idea that no matter what the Devil throws at these self-proclaimed ‘Sheep’ he is just going to fail to steal their immortal soul. And, while the Devil may be a lot of things, he is not stupid! But, since these folks will never be damned - my guess is that he will use his energies more productively… leaving the self-proclaimed ‘Sheep’ alone and just going through the motions on tempting the sure-to-be-damned souls. After all, the Devil is going to get these souls no matter what, eh?

I don’t know about you - but, I have more respect for what the Devil is capable of then I have seen expressed here - just like I have a lot of respect for a poisonous snake! The Devil has nothing but energy - he’s a 24/7/365 kind of hellish monster - who really just has the damnation of souls he has tricked on his mind.

Now, if we take the idea of ‘AoS’ as a creation of the Devil himselff… well … he is much too ‘humble’ to take earthly credit … he would just as soon pass this on to the humans he has deceived. And, right now he must be laughing his ‘horns’ off at how this deceptive foolishness has lead so many astray!

Scripture has many examples of people who managed to fall for the Devil’s lies - and then managed to convince others that wrong is right and deceiving them, too.

God bless

Hi, Tom… you’ve reminded me of a story Mom used to tell… demons go out into the world; one brings “x” number, another “xy” and so on… one brings just one soul… as Satan checks some were gathered from bars, nightclubs, cathouses, etc… while the rest are putting down the single soul gatherer Satan exalts him because he grabbed it from inside the Church!

OldProf continues his avoidance of every single Scriptural passage that demonstrates that God is not a God of whim that will force some into Salvation while damning others just on caprice… it makes Christ’s Sacrifice futile, the founding of His Church senseless, and the Coming of the Holy Spirit a complete waste… remember… God exists outside of time so all Eternity has already been laid bare to Him and He Knew exactly who He would “elect” to Save and all those whom He would condem into oblivion… don’t that sound like Greek mythology, where the gods pit humans against humans and cheat each other by granting some more power and even demigod status?

Yes, there exists the “elect” (St. John 1:12-13)… but it is not God’s choice that man be damned (Ezekiel 18:30-32); rather, Christ’s whole purpose is that we shall live (St. John 3:14-17)… but the ultimate choice is man’s (St. John 3:18)… yeah, clear Biblical Teaching is hard to follow!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jcrichton,

Great story! I have a jail ministry on Sundays (nothing like having a ‘captive audience’ ) and will begin my program with this insightful bit of humor. Thanks for sharing.

Ahhh… do you think OldProf went on sabbatical…?

God bless

Hi, Tom… you’ve reminded me of a story Mom used to tell… demons go out into the world; one brings “x” number, another “xy” and so on… one brings just one soul… as Satan checks some were gathered from bars, nightclubs, cathouses, etc… while the rest are putting down the single soul gatherer Satan exalts him because he grabbed it from inside the Church!

OldProf continues his avoidance of every single Scriptural passage that demonstrates that God is not a God of whim that will force some into Salvation while damning others just on caprice… it makes Christ’s Sacrifice futile, the founding of His Church senseless, and the Coming of the Holy Spirit a complete waste… remember… God exists outside of time so all Eternity has already been laid bare to Him and He Knew exactly who He would “elect” to Save and all those whom He would condem into oblivion… don’t that sound like Greek mythology, where the gods pit humans against humans and cheat each other by granting some more power and even demigod status?

Yes, there exists the “elect” (St. John 1:12-13)… but it is not God’s choice that man be damned (Ezekiel 18:30-32); rather, Christ’s whole purpose is that we shall live (St. John 3:14-17)… but the ultimate choice is man’s (St. John 3:18)… yeah, clear Biblical Teaching is hard to follow!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Guanophore,

I had really never heard of ‘sysematic theology’ before joining this thread. My first assumption is that the study of any discipline must be done in a ‘systematic’ way - but, that does not seem to be the correct idea.

What is your understanding of ‘systematic theology’ and what would be the opposite of this particular approach (OK, I’ll give into ‘temptation’ … would that be ‘un-systematic’?

Notwithstanding the joke - I am serious about the question.

Thanks

God bless

OldProf I searched the thread and did not find any references to Hebrews and the notion that a persons who can fall from grace. Has this passage already been covered, or is there no point covering it because you believe the passage does not apply to Christians?

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt. 7 Ground that drinks up the rain falling on it repeatedly, and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and on the verge of being cursed; its end is to be burned over.

I have been told by some systematic theologists that Hebrews is not addressed to Christians, and that since it applies to Jews only, modern/Gentile Christians are under a different covenant etc. etc.

 

[guanophore]

Hi, Guanophore,

I had really never heard of ‘sysematic theology’ before joining this thread. My first assumption is that the study of any discipline must be done in a ‘systematic’ way - but, that does not seem to be the correct idea.

What is your understanding of ‘systematic theology’ and what would be the opposite of this particular approach (OK, I’ll give into ‘temptation’ … would that be ‘un-systematic’?

Notwithstanding the joke - I am serious about the question.

Thanks

God bless

Well, broadly speaking it would be a reasoned and inclusive approach to the topic of Christian dogmatics. St. John of Damascus in the East and Thomas Aquinas in the West are examples of theologians who attempt to organize doctrines into an organized and holistic summary.

In this context, however, it refers to organizing the way one understands the Scriptures in the light of a preconceived set of principles, such as those contained in Calvin’s Institutes. One systematically approaches the Scriptures according to a systematic framework in such a manner that all the available evidence supports the framework. In order to make this work, one must excise, ignore, and redefine a number of terms so that the result continues to hang together. It think you will agree that we have been able to observe this process, and it’s results, in this thread.

 

[guanophore]

here (below) is what I remember of my conversation back in 1997 with a 87 year old Roman Catholic Priest who had been the Dean of Theology at an Ohio RC College (and he was a sharp thinking man). At that time I was getting ready to retire from the US Air Force and we had regular meeting dates each week in his office, though in some cases it was twice a week. I really liked him and he really liked my zeal for theology and to understand RC theology. He said this (I’m hoping I don’t misrepresent him, and the quote is not exact, just from my memory):

“Regarding the elect, these a people that God, who knows the future, knows will have sanctifying grace when they die, and since they are in a state of grace at death, they will almost certainly go to purgatory. But they have a heavenly destination for eternity!”

I don’t agree with this, because I believe the biblical teaching is that elect are called of God unto salvation.

Everyone is called of God unto salvation.

1 Tim 2:3-5
God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Not all of those called actually follow all the way to salvation. Some don’t follow the call at all!

 We should not be surprised that Christ and Apostles implore us to be good Christians and bring glory to God. That's what we should do! But the sin nature we all have keeps us from being as good as we could be once God has saved us. But He does work in the elect! Php 2:13

Regards, OldProf

This understanding of the “sin nature” represents a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. They taught that we were “more than conquerers” through the grace that saves us, and that we can be good, and do good, by the mighty power that is at work within us. They taught that we have died to the sin nature, and therefore, are free in Christ to choose not to sin, and that we do not have to sin.

 

[guanophore]

Could someone simply state the Church’s stance about it…Does the Church believe the believer can know he is saved and going to heaven?

YES OR NO

I do not believe in OSAS…I believe one can fall, but I also believe one can Know he is saved and does not have to wait til Judgment to fully know.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (John 6:47)

We can certainly know and have confidence in the work that has already been completed in us. We have already been sealed with the HS, as a guarantee (deposit) of our inheritance.

We can also know that we are being saved presently by the work that the HS is doing in us here and now.

And we can have a sure hope, that if we continue in HIs Way, we will be united with the inheritance that is kept imperishable for us in heaven.

The Church teaches that it is up to God who is saved, and who is not. We cannot know, because there are parts of ourselves that we do not know.

Paul, the Apostle claimed to teach OSAS by those who disregard the other writings of the NT as well as some of his own, writes this:

1 Cor 4:3-5
I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive commendation from God.

 

[guanophore]

  NO. Since a mortal sin is always an option, you cannot know you are going to heaven. In addition, the sin of presumption can also be a mortal sin, so it is dangerous to assume you have the assurance of salvation. That is the RCC view.

Certainly dangerous and unbiblical to “assume”. But there are plenty of passages that give us assurance about salvation. There are also plenty of conditional verses - that means those that say “if”.

if we confess our sins
if we remain in Him
if we endure
if we follow His commandments
If we forgive others, etc, etc.

Next you say you don't believe on OSAS, but the question is, does the Bible teach OSAS? I say yes, it does.

Of course you do! When you read the Scripture with your OSAS glasses on, you will see the OSAS. I can do it too.

I also have a Mormon pair.

Your John 6:47 quote is a good one. It actually means everlasting life - a life that goes on forever and ever. Eternal life. Everlasting life.

Since a believer has everlasting life, and since Jesus’ sheep never perish (John 10:27-29), and since all those chosen by the Father and given to Jesus (to become His sheep) shall be raised up on the last day (John 6:37-40), and, finally, since the Apostle John tells us we can know that we have everlasting life (1 John 5:13), then we can certainly have an assurance of salvation. Biblically speaking, that is.

Indeed! However, what you have done here is collect a set of Scriptures that there are other aspects to consider as well.

Anyone can string together a set of verses like beads, and claim they prove a doctrine.

Remember, we are NOT under condemnation (Romans 8:1), nothing in creation can separate us from God's love (even ourselves per Romans 8:37-39), and since God is the author of salvation (Hebrews 12:2), what God begins, He completes (Philippians 1:6).

No, we are not under condemnation, unless we are in sin. And yes, God loves us, and will keep loving us right through the gates of hell, if we choose to pass through them. And yes, he is the author and finisher of our faith, and we are not finished until the end of this life.

So, biblically, OSAS is taught and the Christian believer can have assurance of their salvation. Self-examination to make sure you are “in” Christ is important, and I’ll talk about that if you respond to this.

Regards, OldProf

Catholics are usually well versed in self examination, or as we call it, the examination of conscience. Yet there are still things about ourselves we cannot know, and that is why only God can judge us with right judgement. That is also why we do not pronounce that judgement before the time.

 

[OldProf]

Hi, Tom… you’ve reminded me of a story Mom used to tell… demons go out into the world; one brings “x” number, another “xy” and so on… one brings just one soul… as Satan checks some were gathered from bars, nightclubs, cathouses, etc… while the rest are putting down the single soul gatherer Satan exalts him because he grabbed it from inside the Church!

OldProf continues his avoidance of every single Scriptural passage that demonstrates that God is not a God of whim that will force some into Salvation while damning others just on caprice… it makes Christ’s Sacrifice futile, the founding of His Church senseless, and the Coming of the Holy Spirit a complete waste… remember… God exists outside of time so all Eternity has already been laid bare to Him and He Knew exactly who He would “elect” to Save and all those whom He would condem into oblivion… don’t that sound like Greek mythology, where the gods pit humans against humans and cheat each other by granting some more power and even demigod status?

Yes, there exists the “elect” (St. John 1:12-13)… but it is not God’s choice that man be damned (Ezekiel 18:30-32); rather, Christ’s whole purpose is that we shall live (St. John 3:14-17)… but the ultimate choice is man’s (St. John 3:18)… yeah, clear Biblical Teaching is hard to follow!

Maran atha!

Angel

It seems to me you are bearing false witness. “OldProf continues his avoidance of every single Scriptural passage that demonstrates that God is not a God of whim that will force some into Salvation while damning others just on caprice” is simply false. Furthermore, this comment demonstrates your ignorance of systematic theology and what it purposes to do in teaching and dealing with God’s inspired Word. Anyone reading this thread knows I’ve dealt with many verses that have been brought up and I’ve sought Glory to God in His works and choices.

What happens to true followers of Jesus (the elect)? (Hint: John 10:28 and Rom 8:38-39 and John 6:37-40.)

What happens when God begins a good work in a person? (Hint: Php 1:6 and Heb 12:2.)

Are these Scriptures not clear? Or will you just pass them by? If you simply deal with the context of these Scriptures you will see my argument has a solid Scriptural foundation. Or is it just simpler to say OldProf is demon possessed?

I think you can do better then that, Angel.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Hi, Jcrichton,

Great story! I have a jail ministry on Sundays (nothing like having a ‘captive audience’ ) and will begin my program with this insightful bit of humor. Thanks for sharing.

Ahhh… do you think OldProf went on sabbatical…?

God bless

No, not on sabbatical. There are some chronologically earlier posts that have asked me questions that I should give consideration to and answer.

Regards, OldProf