Assurance of Salvation

[guanophore]

Hey, I like to debate to!

In your posts that follow (794, 795) you indicate I have a problem with context. And if so, that is good to know. However, in this case, I would respectfully disagree. The “righteous acts” of an unbeliever have a lot to do with personal pride and bringing glory to the unbeliever, not to God.

In general I do agree, that human efforts to do good and thereby justify ourselves before God come from personal pride. However, Scripture is clear that not all human efforts to do good emanate from such motives. You have yet to respond to this passage previously posted:

Rom 2:13-16
14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

Why would the Apostle suggest that such persons could be excused if it were not possible on the day of judgment?

You have to somehow dispatch or disregard this passage to uphold your theory.

  That kind of "righteousness" is so tainted and defiled and so unlike the righteousness of God, that it brings on these comparisons. Today we might compare sin to the deadly poison that terrorist put into the water supply. Sin pervades the choices that the unregenerate make.

Again you are inserting your concept of total depravity into the Scriptures. The Apostle is quite clear that the “Gentile” (Pagan/unregenerate) has a God given conscience, and the ability to make decisions in accordance with it, and by so doing, be excused from judgment. There are many passages of Scripture that refute the doctrine of Total Depravity. This is just one.

But that leads me to a question. How does one become “regenerate”? Was Elijah regenerate? How about the parents of John the Baptist?

I feel there is a lot more that could be said about this, but I can't say it tonight. I'm going on vacation for 9 days and have a 14 hour drive ahead of me tomorrow morning. I'm hoping to be able to post from our vacation site.

I hope so too. I will be waiting with baited breath.

One last quick comment. I studied weekly from 1997 to 2004 with some serious and dedicated Jehovah’s Witnesses. They wanted me to be “in the truth.” They are henotheists with Jesus as the greatest man who ever lived, he is a mighty god, but not God Almighty. They believe in the WRONG Jesus. John the Baptist said, “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36) In 8 years you can see their pride, their false humility, their anger - sometimes extreme when seriously challenged. If there is one thing they need, it is the true Gospel.

Well, I did not mean to imply that the should not be brought out of their error. Just making the point that some of them are quite innocently sincere in their misled faith.

 

[jcrichton]

This is a big hangup for me too.
:whacky:

…it’s as though God did not have a Salvific Plan… but simply spinned a wheel (“elect” - not “elect”)… then started thinking that such myopic “Plan for Salvation” might be seen as not quite becoming of His Omnipotence and Omnicience so He threw a bunch of after-the-fact prophecies in spite of their redundancy!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Her answer is better than yours … both both answers need to be qualified by the FACTS of the Gospel.

Christ promises that ALL who place faith in Him, and take up Cross and follow Him to the end … will see the Kingdom. Its a two part proposition for us.

Protestants tend to emphasize Step 1, Catholics tend to overly-emphasize Step 2. [by teaching that a SINGLE unconfessed mortal sin [on our last day] precludes entrance into the Kingdom].

…but it is not just the unconfessed mortal sin that would do us in but as explained above by guanophore:

The other issue is that we must not presume upon the judgement of God. We can follow all the commandments, and do all that is in our power to remain in a state of grace, but there are aspects of our own hearts that we do not even know.

1 Cor 4:4-5
5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive commendation from God.

This statement of Trent is saying that we must not make assumptions about our standing before God, because we cannot see ourselves as He does.

…when we determine that we are “saved” and refuse to reconcile with God we have set ourselves up for failure!

The Church Teaches that we must obey God’s Commandments and Warnings:

15 When you stretch out your hands I turn my eyes away. You may multiply your prayers, I shall not be listening. Your hands are covered in blood, 16 wash, make yourselves clean. Take your wrong-doing out of my sight. Cease doing evil. 17 Learn to do good, search for justice, discipline the violent, be just to the orphan, plead for the widow. 18 ‘Come, let us talk this over,’ says Yahweh. ‘Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. 19 If you are willing to obey, you shall eat the good things of the earth. 20 But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall eat you instead – for Yahweh’s mouth has spoken.’ (Isaiah 1:15-20)

…as St. James states, we must submit ourselves to God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Many times I have fallen back into unconfessed sin for a brief period … of weeks to months]. Always however, I am recovered to my senses … and in due time I fully repent and again am restored to full fellowship & cross-bearing.

If I had died during these times of spiritual neglect not spiritual rejection, by any stretch of events ] … would these unconfessed mortal sins have sealed my fate and confinement to Hell ?

I believe every Reborn Christian has fallen back many times … only to be recovered by Christ and the Church Triumphant Saints. All our great saints had their weak moments … and were recovered to higher ground. I think that is the norm for us all … but, I could be wrong.

Correct me … if I’m wrong in my viewpoint. I’ve been wrong before …

…were you ignorant of God’s Command (Isaiah 1; Ezekiel 18) or were you making yourself and God a liar (1 St. John 1) by claiming that you did not need to reconcile with God because Christ already died for all of your sins (past, present, future)?

…the prodigal son wasted his money and time engaging immoral acts (which includes demanding an inheritance to which he had no right) but even before returning to the Father his heart was contrite and his pride put away as he humbly sought to return to the Father… it is the same for all sinners… only God’s Holy Spirit can Communicate the truth that’s in each individual’s heart, thusly it is not the Church who condemns the sinner but the sinner’s own standing with God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Someday when I have nothing to do, I am going to create a collection of every example of conditional language I can find. It seems like the AoS folks disregard anything that says “if”.

Rom 11:21-22
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you,** provided you continue **in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

…yeah, it is difficult to admit that we are responsible for the final outcome of our Eternal existence… it’s better to rely on selective/faulty reading/exegesis… but that’s not an out since already someone coined “ignorance of the law is no excuse.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Remember God’s mercy? Read Ephesians 2. Clearly, Jesus saves His people - those sinners given to Him by the Father.

But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Matthew 1:20-21

Angel, who are “his people”?

The answer is easy enough.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

That’s Jesus speaking in John 6:37,44,65. And notice how Jesus prays just before being arrested. He first prays for His disciples, and then He says,

24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." John 17:24-26

Paul says,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. Ephesians 1:4

Paul says,

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Paul, in his final letter, says of God,

who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 2 Timothy 1:9

Bottom Line: Jesus provided atonement for a specific group - God’s Elect.

Regards, OldProf

Sorry,OldProf… the bottom line is Jesus provided atonement for all of mankind!

All of mankind has been elect in Christ before the Beginning of Creation but as Scriptures tells us, it is not that God rejects some while accepting others… it is that man makes a conscious choice to reject God’s Salvation:

14… the gospel; it is God’s power for the salvation of everyone who has faith… for in it is revealed the saving justice of God: a justice based on faith and addressed to faith. As it says in scripture: Anyone who is upright through faith will live… (Romans 1:14-32–condensed due to site’s limits)

19 And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. 20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up… (St. John 3:19-20)

…and while it is true that there’s an election, that election is that as you claim it… if you move yourself just a little bit away from your perspective you will find that you are making God some charlatan who relishes torturing humanity by dangling the proverbial carrot only to take it away… the God of the Sacred Writing has Orchestrated a very conscious and deliberate Plan of Salvation in which all who are willing to humbly submit their will to God’s can be Granted Eternal Salvation in Christ!:

16 For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. 17 For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. 18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God’s only Son. (St. John 3:16-18)

9 The Word was the real light that gives light to everyone… 10 He was in the world that had come into being through him, and the world did not recognise him. 11 He came to his own and his own people did not accept him. 12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believed in his name 13 who were born not from human stock or human desire or human will but from God himself… (St. John 1:9-14)

22 God’s saving justice given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. 23 No distinction is made: all have sinned and lack God’s glory, 24 and all are justified by the free gift of his grace through being set free in Christ Jesus. 25 God appointed him as a sacrifice for reconciliation, through faith, by the shedding of his blood, and so showed his justness; first for the past, when sins went unpunished because he held his hand; 26 and now again for the present age, to show how he is just and justifies everyone who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:22-26)

19 because God wanted all fullness to be found in him 20 and through him to reconcile all things to him, everything in heaven and everything on earth, by making peace through his death on the cross. 21 You were once estranged and of hostile intent through your evil behaviour; 22 now he has reconciled you, by his death and in that mortal body, to bring you before himself holy, faultless and irreproachable- 23 as long as you persevere and stand firm on the solid base of the faith, never letting yourselves drift away from the hope promised by the gospel, which you have heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become the servant. (Colossians 1:19-23)

May the Holy Spirit enlighten you!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Hey, I like to debate to!

In your posts that follow (794, 795) you indicate I have a problem with context. And if so, that is good to know. However, in this case, I would respectfully disagree. The “righteous acts” of an unbeliever have a lot to do with personal pride and bringing glory to the unbeliever, not to God. That kind of “righteousness” is so tainted and defiled and so unlike the righteousness of God, that it brings on these comparisons. Today we might compare sin to the deadly poison that terrorist put into the water supply. Sin pervades the choices that the unregenerate make.

I feel there is a lot more that could be said about this, but I can’t say it tonight. I’m going on vacation for 9 days and have a 14 hour drive ahead of me tomorrow morning. I’m hoping to be able to post from our vacation site.

One last quick comment. I studied weekly from 1997 to 2004 with some serious and dedicated Jehovah’s Witnesses. They wanted me to be “in the truth.” They are henotheists with Jesus as the greatest man who ever lived, he is a mighty god, but not God Almighty. They believe in the WRONG Jesus. John the Baptist said, “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36) In 8 years you can see their pride, their false humility, their anger - sometimes extreme when seriously challenged. If there is one thing they need, it is the true Gospel.

Gotta go!

Sincerely, OldProf

What of ‘Gentiles’ who perform selfless acts, such as sacrificing their life for another? Or those who are misled but still do the best they can to adhere to the law God has written on our hearts? Romans 2 says they may be spared.

As to the Jehovah’s witnesses, they may be misled and incorrect, but to judge their attempts to convince or convert you as prideful, full of false humility, and anger, seems to me an impossible judgement for a man. We don’t know their hearts. They may truly desire that others be saved, but have simply not realized the truth. How many times have true Christians shown the imperfections you have named?

I am not saying that people can be righteous without God. I am saying that all are unrighteous, yet God has given all of us His law in our hearts, and through His grace even ‘Gentiles’ may do His will at times (not to say that this will save them, this is not within my ability). I could be wrong on this, but it seems logical to me.

Guanophore, am I correct on this, or am I completely wrong? What is Catholic teaching on this subject? I’m not as well versed as I ought to be

 

[jcrichton]

Paul is referring here to the judgment upon the Jews who have rejected Christ, and God’s favor being shown to the Gentiles. Paul is talking in broad ethnic terms here.

For 2000 years since, the Gentiles have remained in God’s favour. Clearly many individual Gentiles have not been kind … but, in the main the Gentiles have honored God, via worship and acceptance of Christ … and we have continued to receive the favour of God.

…I think that the point being made is:

“provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”

…salvation is contingent upon man’s response to God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hey, I like to debate to!

In your posts that follow (794, 795) you indicate I have a problem with context. And if so, that is good to know. However, in this case, I would respectfully disagree. The “righteous acts” of an unbeliever have a lot to do with personal pride and bringing glory to the unbeliever, not to God. That kind of “righteousness” is so tainted and defiled and so unlike the righteousness of God, that it brings on these comparisons. Today we might compare sin to the deadly poison that terrorist put into the water supply. Sin pervades the choices that the unregenerate make.

I feel there is a lot more that could be said about this, but I can’t say it tonight. I’m going on vacation for 9 days and have a 14 hour drive ahead of me tomorrow morning. I’m hoping to be able to post from our vacation site.

One last quick comment. I studied weekly from 1997 to 2004 with some serious and dedicated Jehovah’s Witnesses. They wanted me to be “in the truth.” They are henotheists with Jesus as the greatest man who ever lived, he is a mighty god, but not God Almighty. They believe in the WRONG Jesus. John the Baptist said, “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36) In 8 years you can see their pride, their false humility, their anger - sometimes extreme when seriously challenged. If there is one thing they need, it is the true Gospel.

Gotta go!

Sincerely, OldProf

I must concur with you OldProf… my experience has been similar… they believe that none but their group has correct knowledge of Scriptures and, as the Muslims, they see all as pagans/infidels that must be converted or shunned!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

What of ‘Gentiles’ who perform selfless acts, such as sacrificing their life for another? Or those who are misled but still do the best they can to adhere to the law God has written on our hearts? Romans 2 says they may be spared.

As to the Jehovah’s witnesses, they may be misled and incorrect, but to judge their attempts to convince or convert you as prideful, full of false humility, and anger, seems to me an impossible judgement for a man. We don’t know their hearts. They may truly desire that others be saved, but have simply not realized the truth. How many times have true Christians shown the imperfections you have named?

I am not saying that people can be righteous without God. I am saying that all are unrighteous, yet God has given all of us His law in our hearts, and through His grace even ‘Gentiles’ may do His will at times (not to say that this will save them, this is not within my ability). I could be wrong on this, but it seems logical to me.

Guanophore, am I correct on this, or am I completely wrong? What is Catholic teaching on this subject? I’m not as well versed as I ought to be

Hi, PeaceInChrist!

Welcomed to the forum!

…you are well versed… the passage in Scriptures is making a distinction between those of the Faith (Jews/Christians) and Gentiles (those that did not have knowledge: Scriptures and the infrastructure to make them known)… both (Believers and non-Believers) have God’s Law written on their hearts… however the Believers have the additional advantage of the Scriptures, Prophets and Teachers… yet, many of these, who seem to have quite and advantage, fall short of God’s Grace because they do not adhere to the Word; conversely, some of the Gentiles observe God’s Laws which are written on their hearts and they are able to obtain God’s Grace becuase even in their ignorance of God their behavior is according to God’s Will!

…as for the Jehovah Witnesses… my experience has been that they will engage you in an attempt to convert you; they will reject anything that you offer as Biblical proof; within a few visits they will begin to attact the Catholic Church and will push their skewed theology where Christ is a demigod, angel, good man, a subordinate of the Almighty God… as the Mormons, they are willing to visit for a few sessions but their goal is to get you to their religious center/building or to accept their rendering of the Sacred Scriptures as truth.

…one more fact: they are tenatious and are convinced that they are truly the visible people of God… many of their behavior does demonstrate pride–specially when they constantly ignore anything that you might claim in regards to the Sacred Scriptures or the error of their denomination…

…still, we must pray for them–theirs is a cult-like environment and many of their followers are swayed by their endoctrination period with their “family-like” acceptance and self-involvement.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[october_baby]

Guys, I hate to ruin your heated debate, but I think that debates such as these do not bring people anywhere. Speaking from personal experience as a former Protestant, I used to debate with Catholics about issues such as these, and I was entirely unconvinced; that was until one day it suddenly ‘struck’ :newidea:me, if you could say that, that what the Catholic Church teaches is true. Even now, I’ve realized that no matter how well-reasoned and scripture-supported your arguments for our Catholic faith are, they will have no ability to convince unless the Protestant has an open and willing heart to seek the truth (which obviously many are so committed to their beliefs that no amount of scripture could alter their personal interpretation) or Our Lord works in them and shows them the truth.

You guys have completely deviated from my original intent of this thread, which was to ask advice. Honestly, if, after 21 pages of arguing no Protestant is convinced of the Catholic faith, then I would just tell them to pray about it, pray the Holy Rosary for them, and leave it up to God for their conversion

Hope you guys pay attention to this message…

Couldn’t put it better myself, I have an Uncle like Old Prof…:banghead:

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Oumashta,

This is an interesting insight - and, one I honestly appreciate.

The prayer is that an open heart seeking the truth will ultimately prevail with the Grace of Godl .

But, you know… at least in my opinion, this debate is much bigger then OldProf and all of those who in some way hold to ‘AoS’. There are those who ‘lurk’ and who read many of these posts. As I see it, there have been several posts on both sides and even a casual observer can see how issues have been raised and how issues have been evaded. The evasions have taken two distinct forms: 1.) providing a multitude of Scriptural passages that simply do not apply on their face and then depend on the writer’s unique explanation as to what they really mean and 2.) simply ignoring those posts which simply disprove ‘AoS’.

There really is no argument about the need to pray for one another. And, as you suggested, a special prayer that an open heart that is truly seeking God’s Will in this matter will prevail.

I admit, my view on this topic was somewhat narrow when I first joined the thread - but, I would be remiss if I did not thatnk all who participated and helped me get a more expanded view of our Catholic teaching in this area. This thread has certainly been a genuine blessing to me and I hope to everyone else.

So, while I truly appreciate you sharing your personal story - along with the idea that you may certainly be dead right on in this matter, my comments have really been for a larger audience then OldProf, et al. Maybe you would would like to share a little more about ‘coming home’ and what it was - in addition to the Grace of God - that helped you to make that move.

Welcome back!

God bless

Guys, I hate to ruin your heated debate, but I think that debates such as these do not bring people anywhere. Speaking from personal experience as a former Protestant, I used to debate with Catholics about issues such as these, and I was entirely unconvinced; that was until one day it suddenly ‘struck’ :newidea:me, if you could say that, that what the Catholic Church teaches is true. Even now, I’ve realized that no matter how well-reasoned and scripture-supported your arguments for our Catholic faith are, they will have no ability to convince unless the Protestant has an open and willing heart to seek the truth (which obviously many are so committed to their beliefs that no amount of scripture could alter their personal interpretation) or Our Lord works in them and shows them the truth.

You guys have completely deviated from my original intent of this thread, which was to ask advice. Honestly, if, after 21 pages of arguing no Protestant is convinced of the Catholic faith, then I would just tell them to pray about it, pray the Holy Rosary for them, and leave it up to God for their conversion

Hope you guys pay attention to this message…

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I do not believe in once saved always saved and the Catholic Church doesn’t believe in once Saved Always Saved.

I have heard it said that it is possible for a Catholic to have not absolute certainty of salvation but a MORAL CERTAINTY of salvation if they are in a state of grace and are trying to live out the beatitudes and are receiving the sacraments.

Is this true?

What exactly is “Moral certainty” and how does this differ from “absolute certainty” which is presumptuos?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jerry-Jet,

Here is a rather comprehensive view of certainty of which moral certainty is included:newadvent.org/cathen/03539b.htm

For purposes of this thread, here is a ‘working definition’ that may be easier to follow - and, hopefully does not contain too many errors… (Ah, if in doubt - return to the link! )

We have moral certainty about our own salvation when we have made every effort to determine the Will of God and then conform our behavior to that Will in anticipation that God has made promises and He can not deceive or be deceived.

Practical applications of this idea would be to make the honest determination that we are following what Christ told us to do. Following the instruction of Christ in Luke 10: “He who hears you hears Me” we look to Matthew 16 and read where Christ established His Church on sinful Peter, gave him the Keys as a sign of his authority and then gave him unlimited authority to bind and to release.

Next look at the period of time from the Resurrection to the end of the Apostolic Age (about the year 100AD). While all of the writings that would eventually be included in The Bible as we know it today existed - they had not yet been put together as the Canon of Scripture - the Infallible Word of God. This event would not take place until approximately the year 400AD. And, this means that for about 300 years there was no Bible. And, considering all of the Gnostic writings out there (‘Gospel of St. Thomas’, ‘Gospel of Barnabus’, etc.) there was no definitive set of writings that were established - so error could easily be introduced. But, it was Sacred Tradition guided by the Holy Spirit that protected the Catholic Church from errro from that time to today. It was the Teaching Authority of the Church that defined doctrines - beginning with St. Peter declaring that no one had to become a Jew before becoming a follower of Christ as recorded in Acts.

Now look to the Early Church Fathers - while not individually infallible - they developed the body of religious doctrine that helps us understand the Message of Salvation as spoken by Christ.

Flash forward to the 16th Century and see how those in revolt refused to put their faith in the Church founded by Christ. While each came forward with what they thought were the best of reasons - all lacked faith that the Holy Spirit would continue to guide the Church as Christ had promised. The frutits of this major break in faith exists today - and in the persons of innocent people brought up in various faith backgrounds.

We have moral certainty that, if we have done all we can do to determie the True Church of Christ, and we then abide by its teachings to do good an avoid evil - then the promises of Christ will be kept towards our eternal salvation. Those who claim they absolutely know that they are ‘The Elect’ - and no sin they can do will ever change that - have no faith but a misplaced philosophical certainty based on their own flawed interpretation of Scripture. Matthew 25 has some chilling examples of those who ‘thought’ they were numbered amongst ‘The Elect’.

Continue to follow Christ through the teachings of His Church and your moral certitude of salvation will be realized. This is what Christ is telling us when he says to persevere to the end and what St. Paul means about working out one’s salvation in fear and trembling. Hardly the stuff of ‘OSAS’ vain boasts.

I hope this helps. Anyone finding errors in this - please let me know - but, I think this is solid doctrine.

God bless

I do not believe in once saved always saved and the Catholic Church doesn’t believe in once Saved Always Saved.

I have heard it said that it is possible for a Catholic to have not absolute certainty of salvation but a MORAL CERTAINTY of salvation if they are in a state of grace and are trying to live out the beatitudes and are receiving the sacraments.

Is this true?

What exactly is “Moral certainty” and how does this differ from “absolute certainty” which is presumptuos?

 

[october_baby]

Amamori, thank-you for your response in #472 above. I believe you can have objective truth. In fact, Jesus claimed to be objective Truth:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (John 14:6 ESV, Biblegateway)

Is it possible to know what Truth is? To find truth we can begin at the most basic premise, it is undeniable. In fact, if you are reading or hearing this you have proved this first basic premise of truth. “Being”, the mere fact you can question truth or yourself means you exist.

This is an “Axiom” or “First Principle” according to Aristotle. First principles are self-evident points, demonstrating their existence without proof. For example, Rene Descartes famous quote, “I Think therefore I am”, proves you exist even if someone told you did not exist, you would still have to think about your existence, therefore proving the one who told you did not exist is wrong.

This proves two points in the search for truth.

1. Existence (To be aware of yourself proves existence)
2. Reason (To think about yourself proves reason)

We can logically conclude we exist and we can have reasoned thought about our existence.

Now, to your question, “Why do you have faith?”

In my case, I would say because of evidence for the truthfulness of the Bible, and because God (the Christian God of the Bible, the only God with truth and power) drew me to Christ.

You should know, I have theological differences with most of those who post on this web site, but in many ways we have much in common. If I am wrong about something, then I will be thankful to learn of my errors. If I am right, then I’m thankful that I can convey those truths and bring glory to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Sincerely, OldProf

I think it is evident that OLD PROF is NOT interested in debating the facts objectively,
and is trying to convert people here. :banghead:

 

[guanophore]

I do not believe in once saved always saved and the Catholic Church doesn’t believe in once Saved Always Saved.

I have heard it said that it is possible for a Catholic to have not absolute certainty of salvation but a MORAL CERTAINTY of salvation if they are in a state of grace and are trying to live out the beatitudes and are receiving the sacraments.

Is this true?

What exactly is “Moral certainty” and how does this differ from “absolute certainty” which is presumptuos?

Here is a tract on the subject.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Oumashta,

This is an interesting insight - and, one I honestly appreciate.

The prayer is that an open heart seeking the truth will ultimately prevail with the Grace of Godl .

But, you know… at least in my opinion, this debate is much bigger then OldProf and all of those who in some way hold to ‘AoS’. There are those who ‘lurk’ and who read many of these posts. As I see it, there have been several posts on both sides and even a casual observer can see how issues have been raised and how issues have been evaded. The evasions have taken two distinct forms: 1.) providing a multitude of Scriptural passages that simply do not apply on their face and then depend on the writer’s unique explanation as to what they really mean and 2.) simply ignoring those posts which simply disprove ‘AoS’.

There really is no argument about the need to pray for one another. And, as you suggested, a special prayer that an open heart that is truly seeking God’s Will in this matter will prevail.

I admit, my view on this topic was somewhat narrow when I first joined the thread - but, I would be remiss if I did not thatnk all who participated and helped me get a more expanded view of our Catholic teaching in this area. This thread has certainly been a genuine blessing to me and I hope to everyone else.

So, while I truly appreciate you sharing your personal story - along with the idea that you may certainly be dead right on in this matter, my comments have really been for a larger audience then OldProf, et al. Maybe you would would like to share a little more about ‘coming home’ and what it was - in addition to the Grace of God - that helped you to make that move.

Welcome back!

God bless

Hi, Tom!

I concur… the exercise is not a total loss since if offers the opportunity to demonstrate that those strange theologies (alien to both Scriptures and Sacred Tradition) are only sound if based on selective use of Scriptures and on a biased interpretation of the selected passages… it also affords me the opportunity to search Scriptures for answers and to expand on my personal knowledge of the variety of beliefs that exist outside of the Catholic Church!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Angel,

Thank you.

Just reading over the posts that promote ‘AoS’ has given me a special type of sadness - one where the Word of God is just stood on its head so that it means whatever anyone wants it to mean.

Luther and Calvin may have started this process - but by now the number of people who believe they can explain God’s Word is legion. You know… 100 years ago - virtually every church in the US condemned abortion, euthansia, homosexual behavior and contraception. They undoubtedly would have condemned embronic stem cell research, in vitro fertilization, and surrogate motherhood - but, such technological advances that thwart God’s Will had not yet been introduced. Today - according to some - the Word of God now allows for such abominations! And these same individuals and the ‘churches’ they represent are quick to point out that God’s Word is infallible and immutable. Imaging!

‘AoS’ is 500 years old and it still can hold a number of folks in its grip. Here we have new forms of the same old and most original act of defiance - when Satan said he would not serve! Candidly, it may be good for those who embrace these new beliefs to at least at their author.

God bless

Hi, Tom!

I concur… the exercise is not a total loss since if offers the opportunity to demonstrate that those strange theologies (alien to both Scriptures and Sacred Tradition) are only sound if based on selective use of Scriptures and on a biased interpretation of the selected passages… it also affords me the opportunity to search Scriptures for answers and to expand on my personal knowledge of the variety of beliefs that exist outside of the Catholic Church!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[guanophore]

Hi, Angel,

Thank you.

Just reading over the posts that promote ‘AoS’ has given me a special type of sadness - one where the Word of God is just stood on its head so that it means whatever anyone wants it to mean.

Luther and Calvin may have started this process - but by now the number of people who believe they can explain God’s Word is legion. You know… 100 years ago - virtually every church in the US condemned abortion, euthansia, homosexual behavior and contraception. They undoubtedly would have condemned embronic stem cell research, in vitro fertilization, and surrogate motherhood - but, such technological advances that thwart God’s Will had not yet been introduced. Today - according to some - the Word of God now allows for such abominations! And these same individuals and the ‘churches’ they represent are quick to point out that God’s Word is infallible and immutable. Imaging!

‘AoS’ is 500 years old and it still can hold a number of folks in its grip. Here we have new forms of the same old and most original act of defiance - when Satan said he would not serve! Candidly, it may be good for those who embrace these new beliefs to at least at their author.

God bless

I am noticing a trend reversal, though. Many of those staunch mainline Protestants have been able to see the fruit of Sola Scriptura, which is fragmentation and division, and are working to go back toward orthodoxy. Some Anglicans have refused to go town this road of developing liberalism and are reuniting with the Catholic Church. Even the Reformed splinter groups are meeting and trying to draft “agreements” on doctrine that they all hold. Let us lift our sadness as prayer to Jesus, as a share in His grief that we are not in conformity as One like He has desired. May we all be One, as He is in the Father!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Guanophore,

That is a great thought! Thanks for sharing it.

God bless

I am noticing a trend reversal, though. Many of those staunch mainline Protestants have been able to see the fruit of Sola Scriptura, which is fragmentation and division, and are working to go back toward orthodoxy. Some Anglicans have refused to go town this road of developing liberalism and are reuniting with the Catholic Church. Even the Reformed splinter groups are meeting and trying to draft “agreements” on doctrine that they all hold. Let us lift our sadness as prayer to Jesus, as a share in His grief that we are not in conformity as One like He has desired. May we all be One, as He is in the Father!