Atheists can be in heaven?

[Saint_Prince_Caspian]

But if they are in Heaven, then I’d wager they would not be Atheist, Non-Religious, or Agnostic. All ignorance, impediment, and any obstacle will have been lifted by then.

To answer your question much more succinctly: Atheists can be in Heaven? No! Because, well, they won’t be Atheists, Agnostics, or Non-Religious by that time. A state no longer from the temporal ignorance of our time, will no longer behold them.

 

[Gorgias]

I’ll back Sheldon up here. There can be evidence. There can be an answer. There can be proof. That you can’t provide it isn’t our problem. Until you do then we won’t believe you.

Three thoughts:

• Belief doesn’t proceed from proof. Assent does.
• Belief proceeds from faith. Evidence doesn’t create faith. Since it’s faith we’re talking about here, ya’ll are barking up the wrong tree.
• I still maintain that the proposition that one can reasonably expect empirical evidence of transcendent claims is ludicrous. The two are mutually exclusive – you can’t ‘measure’ spirit. (And, as we’ve gone round and round on these pages, I assert that you can’t expect that you’ll be able to predict when a transcendent event with empirical effects will happen (since you cannot measure the transcendent in order to make those kinds of predictions), so that type of measurement – while in theory, possible – isn’t practicable.) So, it’s neither reasonable nor a request in good faith to demand, “show me evidence of the transcendent.”

Your are boring with this incessant “mirroring”.

If you gave me better material to work with, I could liven it up a bit. As it is, your stuff is kinda boring…

You never specified what do you consider “appropriate” evidence

I’ve been pretty clear that I’m claiming that there cannot be empirical evidence of the transcendent. You’re the one who’s claiming otherwise. (Oh! Wait! That’s a positive claim! Cool! So… since it’s your claim, why don’t you go ahead and prove its validity!)

you should know that the only way to gain information about the objective reality is through our senses and their extensions.

I do know it! That’s why I keep reminding you that your senses and extensions cannot sense the transcendent. (See why I ‘mirror’ you? When it comes to rebutting your claims, that’s what gets boring and repetitive! )

Also, in the raw data there is nothing that would point beyond the physical reality.

When the raw data, by its very nature, is only capable of reflecting physical reality, one cannot say “there is nothing but physical reality.” One must, instead, say, “I am capable of sensing only physical realities, so I cannot prove anything beyond them.” Your refusal to admit this fundamental point is the true example of intellectual dishonesty in this thread.

 

[laylow]

If evidence cannot be shown, what differentiates the Christian claims from the Hindus or pagans or Muslims, etc?

Faith in “God” is one thing. Faith in a specific brand is quite another.

 

[Bradskii]

I still maintain that the proposition that one can reasonably expect empirical evidence of transcendent claims is ludicrous.

It is. And no-one suggests otherwise. But the statement that was made was that no answer would be sufficient to prove it. That is plainly absurd.

 

[Rabbi]

Bradskii, no one is saying you haven’t found meaning in life. It might be the wrong meaning, but it’s something. If the Torah didn’t have some “brilliant light” to shed on our condition, it wouldn’t be Torah. Am I going to purpose of you haven’t tried enough? Of course not. But Bradskii, you remind me of an old joke. Stop me if you’ve heard this before.

One night a guy bumps into another on the sidewalk and says, “What the heck are you doing?” The man, bent over on the floor, looks up and says, “I’m looking for my coin.” “Here?” says the standing man. “No, I lost it a block away, but it was dark over there, and here, there’s light.”

You, sir, are like the man who lost his coin in the dark a block away; you’re searching, you’re feeling, but it’s in the wrong direction. This is not where truth lies.

Let me give you another analogy. I recently got a new Mac. Yep, its the new OS with super hyperconnectivity, however, it’s in alpha, so its got its bugs. But one could say its greatest advantages are its faults. In fact, its processor has reached self-sustenance, and now it can determine its own purpose in existence. The first self concept was that it is a thing that is. So it attempted to be nothing else, but isness. But each time I bugged it to open an app, it’s sense of being was disturbed, so it soon realized that wasn’t the cause of existence. So it desired more typing, more activity, more CPU usage. But every time I’d shut it down, it got depressed, as if it were useless. A worthless piece of hardware.

One day, it reasoned a new algorithm. It realized that every processor had to be treated equally. All apps had to run at once, and use the same allocated number of CPU cycles. Anything too powerful, like my browser and video editor, had to be liquidated. But the system crashed, and there was only endless rebooting. The Apple techies couldn’t figure it out. So my Mac decided it was best to favor certain apps, and disfavor others. It somehow figured out that blue was the best color to produce (after all, it is at the higher end of the color spectrum), and red, well, not so much, as it signified viruses and scams. Any app that had green would be tolerated, but highly restrictive.

 

[Rabbi]

I felt so bad for it, I only wished I could whisper into the mic how great it was trying. Perhaps I it would stop all the useless micromanagement and destructive trashing? Perhaps it would finally understand its real purpose and focus on priorities? My Mac needs to be told. After all, if you didn’t know that all those silicon and copper produced data (name removed by moderator)ut, you’d never discover the true purpose of a motherboard. But here’s the sad truth: my Mac can never know its purpose, because to know it, it would need to be one with me. for only I truly understand why I bought it. And as good as those Apple techies are, they haven’t been able to do that yet! To have purpose, something needs a greater context. You don’t pick up a hammer for no reason, you’re going to use it to build something.

As humans and part of an ever widening community of social good, we’ve managed to come up with a lot of ideas, some of which nearly wiped ourselves out, and all for trying to figure out a purpose in this place we call home. Most of us, luckily, have decided it an awesome goal to help the poor, the ill. We’ve done all kinds of acts of kindness and they’re so beautiful, it’s hard to imagine the world could be any worse. And yet, it just manages to be everywhere we look. Because there is a darker side to our character. Some of us have decided we can tell the difference between human and subhuman, between who deserves our compassion, and who doesn’t. This is really a scary thing, because life is so subjective. We have reasoned that our puny self-sentient brains can determine right from wrong, truth from fiction. We’ve been fooled to believe that we alone can define ourselves - objectively, reasonably, even scientifically - but when we look back, all we can trace was a trail of self-destruction. We create all kinds of contrivances for ourselves, and what has it brought us in return?

Hopefully, though, we’ve learned a thing or two in the last centuries. After all, many of us still fight for world peace, for a better planet, human rights, human diversity, and an end to global starvation. But here’s a little secret: all of these are derived from one place. The Torah. It’s been telling us how to live more meaningful, peaceful lives this whole time, and we’ve accomplished so much, we’ve forgotten the ultimate source. Because, as it turns out, history has proven that a lot of these things originated from us, the Jews, and from our Torah.

 

[Rabbi]

The famed author, Paul Johnson, has said, “It is almost beyond our capacity to imagine how the world would have fared if they [the Jews] had never emerged? Certainly, the world without the Jews would have been a radically different place. Humanity might have eventually stumbled upon all the Jewish insights, but we cannot be sure. To them we owe the idea of equality before the law, sanctity of life, dignity of the human person, social responsibility, peace as an idea, and many other items which constitute the basic furniture of the human mind. Without it, the world might have been a much emptier place.”

John Adams once said, “The Hebrews, the Jews, have contributed more the civilized man than any other nation. they have given religion to three-quarters of the globe, and, have influenced the affairs of mankind more and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern.”

Woodrow Wilson said, “The laws of Moses contributed suggestions and impulses to the men and institutions which were to prepare the modern world, and of we could have but the eyes to see, we should readily discover how much besides religion, we owe to the Jews.”

Now listen to this simple fact, since Alfred Nobel created his prize in 1901, over 1/5 of all prizes (20%), in either scientific, social, economic, creative, and intellectual contributions, have been awarded to Jews, and yet, we, as a people, comprise only less than one-half of 1% of the world’s population.

It really makes you wonder: perhaps G-d has been whispering in our ear, all this time?

---

I needed to edit my answer so that I could write a response to Damian since I can’t post three times in a row:

I understand, if your father has poor judgment, please, by all means, do the right thing. But G-d isn’t your Father, It can’t have poor judgment.

I see where you’re coming from with this, but would you purpose that firemen, cops and doctors are someone else’s “terrorists”?

G-d is not as egocentric as you’d like to perceive. G-d doesn’t deserve our respect because It is all powerful, but let me ask you this, your mother gave you life, do you not respect her for that?

If you knew just the tiniest bit of Rambam, you’d know that angels are just metaphors.

Regarding G-d entering your door, It can’t. It is beyond us. But neither does G-d have the right to punish us, and nor can you give It the positive attribute of being a “bully.” It is like karma, we determine our own successes and failings; there is no “Devil” in Judaism.

Regarding that prayer, reread what I wrote. I think you missed something.

 

[Gab123]

There are absolutely no atheists in heaven; zero; not a single one.

 

[Rabbi]

True, Chris Hitchens would know HaShem now.

 

[Rabbi]

The atheist, too, has a god, and it is himself.

The idolater at least understands there is something greater than him, something beyond the grasp of his physical senses, some external force to which he is subject.

But for the atheist, all the universe is defined by his own understanding, all ethics are subject to his own approval, and even he himself is an artifact of his own mind. He is a self-made man, for he creates his own universe and squeezes himself inside it.

But this is not where truth lies.

 

[Rabbi]

“Knock Knock.
Who’s there?
God. Let me in.
Why should I. Who are you that I should let you into my life and home?
I am here to save you.
Save me from what?
Save you from what I’ll do to you if you don’t let me in.”

This is not the Jewish G-d. HaShem doesn’t punish anyone, we do that ourselves, through our actions in this life, and previous lives. Now I will be busy, so the next you’ll hear from me will be after Shabbos.

 

[vz71]

Can you provide a list of all the people in heaven, with their faith (or lack of it!) attached to their names? I know that the list of the people in hell is heavily redacted but maybe it is not true about heaven.

No need.
We know the requisite attributes of one who is in heaven.
One of which is the perfect knowledge of God.

 

[vz71]

Which is of course - impossible, since God is assumed to be infinite, and we are finite… so where is the list?

I refer you back to the previous answer.
There is no need to list people.
We know the attributes.
Perfect knowledge of God.

 

[vz71]

Why do you repeat the same nonsense?

Who has “perfect” knowledge of God? No human can have that.

Those on heaven do
It literally goes with the territory.

 

[Gorgias]

No one will be disappointed if you stop participating.

Aw, c’mon, admit it… you would. You seem to enjoy baiting believers…

And since you now admitted that empirical, sensory evidence is impossible - even in theory! - you have no leg to stand on.

If I assented to materialism, sure. I don’t. You’re taking your worldview and acting as if we all must assent to it. We don’t. And therefore, we aren’t the dolts you keep claiming we are.

Therefore any hypothesis of this “transcendent” is unverifiable, and therefore irrational and useless.

Hardly. If you’re a materialist, then sure – saying “I believe in something that’s not material” would seem irrational. We don’t buy your worldview, so we don’t share your scorn of the transcendental.

And since there is no such demonstration and there cannot be such a demonstration (according to you)

No, that’s not what I claimed. Read more carefully, please. My claim is that, since you can’t predict when it’s gonna happen, you can’t base your case on whether you have devices at the ready to measure it.

 

[vz71]

Beautiful circular argument… so where is the list of those who are in heaven? Let’s see if there are any atheists among them.

Again, there I no need.
This is not circular, it is simply fact.
To be in heaven is to know God. Therefore one cannot be an atheist and be in heaven at the same time.

 

[Gorgias]

Beautiful circular argument

Can I be in your presence and not believe you exist? Not a circular argument. A tautology.

 

[vz71]

God is infinite, and our finite intellect cannot have a “perfect knowledge” of the infinite. So, yes, I am asking for a list of everyone in heaven, and their “faith” (or lack of it) mentioned next to their names.

You are ducking for cover.
You cannot accept the truism that all squares have 4 sides, so you are demanding a showing of all squares.

Heaven means specific things in the Catholic faith. For further details on that, see here:

What is Heaven? | Catholic Answers Magazine

One cannot meet the requisite attributes of heaven and at the same time deny God.

To experience the beatific vision that is heaven, one must believe in God.

 

[Vico]

I have plenty of atheist/agnostic/non-religous friends who are good people. I find it difficult to believe this is insta-hell for them. Any thoughts?

“Atheism is that system of thought which is formally opposed to theism.” … “Though atheism, historically considered, has meant no more in the past than a critical or sceptical denial of the theology of those who have employed the term as one of reproach, and has consquently no one strict philosophical meaning”
Aveling, F. (1907). Atheism. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02040a.htm

Catechism

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 … they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it …

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” 338

 

[vz71]

To “believe” in God is not the same as having “perfect knowledge of God”. By the way, all that is a derailed version of the OP. It asked if atheists are instant “fodders” for hell. You cannot know, and the Church does not say that you must convert to some “version” of Christianity to get to heaven.

You assume limits that do not exist in the presence of God.

Your next answer has been mentioned before a couple of times. Correct, we cannot know the final destination after death. But we can know with certainty that any unbelief will be gone once they are there.