Atheists can be in heaven?

[Rabbi]

Judaism has the same concept, though the rabbis were saying it 2,000 some years ago.

 

[Dsivanish]

Were you replying to me?

 

[Rabbi]

Yes, I was. That I agree with you.

 

[christofirst]

Bishop Robert Barron addressed this recently as well. This is, of course, from the Catholic perspective. It makes sense to me, and gives me hope where my loved ones who are non-believers are concerned.

 

[Dsivanish]

You show great wisdom, sir!

 

[Rabbi]

Are you mocking me?

 

[Dsivanish]

No. I was joking by saying that by agreeing with me you show great wisdom. I don’t take myself that seriously. To answer your previous question, Im not sure if I am what you asked, and I don’t blame Jews, or anybody, for anything.

 

[Rabbi]

Think I’ve seen him on the Ben Shapiro show. Great guy.

 

[Rabbi]

You’re making no sense here, but I guess that’s fine.

 

[Dsivanish]

I’m sorry for the confusion.

 

[Damian]

he betrayed us

See you are giving the game away where the religion you are born into is not to be left. It’s a cult then if people are not allowed to leave it when they out grow it and find serious flaws in it. “One of us, One of us, goober gobble goober gobble…”.

We don’t have a hell

Changing the topic. Not what I was addressing.

I find those that have childish depictions of G-d think of Him in such ways.

Poisoning the well here and not addressing what was actually presented

You need to first read up some Rambam before you think there is no “intelligence” to people of faith

Changing the topic here, not what I addressed at all

I bet that the Rambam was one of the smartest men who ever lived! He came up with the physician’s oath and was writing in his early 20s. What a feat!

Irrelevant to what I stated

So you didn’t actually address the one point that I presented. Can you actually tell me that you know what my point is addressing so that I understand what you took from it instead of telling all this other irrelevant side conversation.

 

[Damian]

Respect is to be earned first. You can and must acknowledge someone’s position and respect the idea that they have a right to inform people of their position. What ever their position is, after being assessed, is open to being not respected or to be respected after you’ve assessed it. Stating you have a religious position is something I can acknowledge and will fight for your right to be able to tell people what you think about it and why. But should I respect it? If it fails to fall within what I understand as a good for the problem its addressing, then no, I don’t respect it at all.

 

[Rabbi]

Excuse me, Damian, but are you calling Judaism a cult? Saying that one betrayed his faith, is not the same as saying he can’t leave. I have respect for those who choose to leave (how else do you think we’d have Reform Jews)? You misunderstood me. You should admit it. There is a fine line here, but one thing is sure: the oldest religion on earth is not, never was, and never shall be, a cult.

As far as saying there is no hell in Judaism, I was mistaken, as I thought I was writing this on another thread dealing with hell. My bad, regardless, it isn’t really changing the topic that much, and it’s good for people to know this. In my view, as well as the larger Jewish view, Chris Hitchens isn’t in hell. After all, who is G-d to send him to hell? Can G-d deserve such a task? Our Torah is not in heaven, but on earth. The rabbinic view is as follows: G-d, stay out of it. This is not to say we don’t respect It, but the Torah, as It commissioned, is now in our hands. Human hands.

As far as not addressing what was stated, how can I? I don’t even recall if my response were to you! I merely read the headline and responded; I don’t have time to see what everyone else wrote. I don’t have time for “context.”

As far as reading some Rambam, you should take my advice and do so. As I’ve told others here, no one has the credentials but me, and a few others, who are Jews to talk about Judaism. If you are not a Jew, if you never attended yeshiva, don’t talk about it. This may sound harsh, but it’s true. After all, it is better for one to keep silent on a topic they know very little about than make a fool of themselves otherwise by stating wrong facts. No one has said you’ve done this, so please, no offense, but other have elsewhere, on other sites.

Again, as far as your “point” is concerned, I don’t recall. I think it was something about comparing G-d to Kim Jong Un. Am I to be surprised to such wit? Did Chris Hitchens ever visit North Korea? Did he ever try writing a letter to G-d, to compare personalities? No. Of course not. My point was as follows: don’t compare G-d to North Korea, because you’ve never been to yeshiva, therefore, it is inaccurate and better one doesn’t make such a comparison in the first place.

After all, such a statement is a fallacy. It’s just an opinion, and it means nothing. It shouldn’t even merit my attention. Nor anyone else’s for that matter. I await your response in the hopes of keeping a fruitful dialogue in which we all take away something of value, or, at the very least, understanding of the opposing side.

 

[Rabbi]

Voltaire was a dirty anti-Semite. Read his work.

 

[Rabbi]

Haha, good one.

 

[Rabbi]

The atheists are just as “fanatic” - if we’re going to sadly have to use labels - as anyone else. They say there’s no after life. I’d like to know where that dogma is coming from!

 

[Rabbi]

I think you’ve missed my point. There is an “unseen” dogma. It exists. For instance. There is no G-d. They say it as if it’s fact. Come on, if that isn’t dogma, what is? Aside from the lack of evidence in support of an after life, again, how do they know?

 

[Damian]

You should admit it.

I do admit that I took betraying the faith as leaving the faith. Also, betraying the faith by pointing out all the immoral actions that are and were practiced of that faith as well. I reject your claim that he betrayed the faith. I claim that the people within in the faith that project a message of their faith as benign and good for society and yet ignore the blatant immoral practices of it and applications of it are betraying the message that they claim to cloak themselves in. His message was to hold religion accountable for what it actually does in relation to what it wants to claim to do. The religious do the exact opposite. Who’s betraying the idea of what religion is supposed to be? However, the religious that are following the actual texts of their holy books are standing by their faith. Problem is the texts, when practiced, would create crimes against humanity at worst and people who shelve their ability to morally assess their religious commandments at best.

As far as saying there is no hell in Judaism

Wasn’t addressing hell, so irrelevant to this discussion. What was I actually addressing in my point though?

I don’t even recall if my response were to you!

Okay so you don’t know how to use this forum properly. Then issues like this will keep coming up for you.

As far as reading some Rambam, you should take my advice and do so

I got other books I’m interested in. I find appologetics for people’s religion exactly no different than fans geeking out about their favorite comic books series. Not interested in the religious’ comic book series. I’m interested if they can defend their claims about reality. I can talk about the morality of Harry Potter as much as ever other religion out there. But once they start claiming that voldermort is real, then we have a problem.

I think it was something about comparing G-d to Kim Jong Un

No I was comparing the setup of Heaven to North Korea. Where worship of a dear leader is more important than living the moral life.

Did Chris Hitchens ever visit North Korea?

Yes he did.

Did he ever try writing a letter to G-d, to compare personalities?

No because he’s outgrown the idea of the supernatural actually being there. Just like how people outgrow writing to Santa.

don’t compare G-d to North Korea, because you’ve never been to yeshiva, therefore, it is inaccurate and better one doesn’t make such a comparison in the first place.

Irrelevant because we’re talking about what religion presents is the case, not what is actually the case. We are addressing what religious people claim to be and what implications that entails.
Never been to Hogwarts either, but we can talk about the ethical issues of a Head Master that would have a child sword fight a basilisk.

 

[Rabbi]

You cannot compare HaShem to Santa. The Torah to comic books. Or heaven to North Korea. Do you think bris milah is wrong? And what do you mean by “when practiced, would create crimes against humanity”? I tell you now, Judaism hasn’t caused “crimes against humanity,” Hitler and his Nazi thugs did. Stalin (another glorious atheist), as well as Mao (yet another), should put atheists to shame. Is this the best the dogma can offer? We’re not children here, obviously, religion has been hijacked for evil, but look inside the Torah, and tell me what you see: love or hate? Let that be the only measure for truth.

 

[Damian]

How do you get a link between being an atheist and a world view or a political view or anything else that directs a person’s actions to do X?

Religion has direct tenants on what to do. It has a deity that is on record for what it wants people to do. The religious point to their texts and their personal relationship with their deity and church as guild posts for what to do in the world. Is any of that available to atheists?

The Torah to comic books.

Really how are they different? Both are loved by millions, both address moral issues, have heroes, claims to reality that have yet to be demonstrated as even possible, written in historic locations that came be documented as actually existing, etc.

Or heaven to North Korea.

Both worship a dear leader over living the ethical life, both can convict you of thought crime, but at least in North Korea you can die and get away from it.

Judaism hasn’t caused “crimes against humanity

every abrahamic religion has this in its past and we are still trying to fight to teach that women and children are not property of men, that genital mutilation of children is wrong, etc. Do you not have to pray every day to thank your deity for not making you a gentile or a woman?

religion has been hijacked for evil,

by the evil within its texts being exercised by the religious. The texts directly sanction evil. These people are not just making this stuff up. I mean where would people come up with the idea that cutting up children’s genitalia is a good idea to exercise if not from religious text or religious person? The yearning for all this to end in some apocalyptic finality just to be with the dear leader. The stunting of the rights of every minority, women, child (that’s more than 2/3’s of the world’s population) for men to own them and treat them as property, environment care, animal care, science research, the price of giving up your mental faculties to live as a credulous serf, etc.