Atheists can be in heaven?

[Rabbi]

Atheism has dogma, here’s an example: there’s no life after death. They can’t prove it. Therefore, dogma.

You ask me “what is G-d?” This is the wrong question, as we will soon see, but let me answer in a very Jewish way, something you are likely unaccustomed to.

first, G-d is not a “thing.” G-d is not even an idea. But as we grow older, we harbor more things, and try to make G-d one of them, and it’s upsetting, because G-d won’t “fit” in your house. But what happened when you were first born? Were they’re things, per se? No, there was only experience. The experience of just being. Living. Breathing. Realism. This is what’s real, things aren’t; we’ve just created them. Things represent us, but not the Divine. In Hebrew, biblical Hebrew, that is, there is no word for “thing.” There is, however, a word for “word.” In other words, we represent things through words, desires. In fact, the whole creation story is just that: words, in a book. But whereas verbs are the kings of Hebrew, in English, it’s the opposite: nouns reign supreme. In fact, R. Moshe Cordovero pointed out that everything in Hebrew is a verb. To be honest, we don’t even have present-tenses in biblical Hebrew, for nothing ever is. Everything is always in flux. And it works, because Hebrew wasn’t written in glyphs, it was the first language to use symbols to represent sound, not things. When you look at Hebrew, you’re literally looking at sounds. And this fits nicely into the order of the universe. Scientists today are saying that things don’t exist, matter may not even exist. Everything can be broken down into waves, vibrations, fields of energy. Life is a concert, not a museum. Unlike a painter, who uses his model as a mouthpiece to establish his “reality” on the canvas, a composer cannot do this. As soon as he stops the music, everything fades. Therefore, the only real existence is the flow of being. And that, my friend, is G-d. G-d’s name us made up of four letters in Hebrew, all verbs, the verb to be. G-d will be who It will be, forever. When Moses asked It for the name, what did G-d say? “I will be that which I will be.” Not, “I am what I am,” this is a mistranslation. So G-d isn’t a “thing,” It is iness itself. That’s why you never hear Jews who speak Hebrew asking things like, “Does G-d exist?,” because there is no such tautology there. You’d rather ask, “Does existence exist?” And this is why we don’t simply “believe” in G-d. We just know It. For what can be outside of Itself?

 

[Rabbi]

So then, what of faith? Faith in Hebrew means trust. We have trust in Who, or What, G-d is. Faith isn’t merely what the “fools” believe in. Faith - emunah, is the innate conviction, a=the perception of truth, which transcends, rather than evades, reason. But it isn’t based on reason. because reason can sometimes be wrong. If reason is what you’ve told yourself after the fact, than emunah is that fact. How to test it? Martyrdom. If a person is willing to die for his or her emunah, that is because it is the quintessential to his or her being. It can be nurtured through reason, but it ultimately comes from seeking a relationship with the Divine, that which is outside of one’s self. And it requires much exercise. You’re never perfect in playing the guitar until your fingers bleed, well, it’s the same with HaShem. You need to make it second nature. A Hebrew artisan is called an “uman,” because he or she practices till their craft is one with them. This is the only way such a phenomenon can manifest itself in your life, but you’ve got to be willing to do a little sacrifice for a greater good, to spend some time with your Maker. Because reality proves that G-d really does care for us, and that is reality. Because reality is a caring experience. You have to believe in that. So the next time you wake up, don’t just fetch for coffee, be in the moment, the experience of waking. No “things” exist yet, there is only the flow of being. That flow is in a single, simple point. If you can get into it, commune with it, speak to it, become one with it - that is G-d.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

It was a joke.

 

[Gorgias]

Since the end of life physical life is death, there cannot be a “life” a numerically identical physical life after death. This is simple biology .

There ya go. Fixed that for ya.

By the way: that correction invalidates the point you thought you were making.

 

[Rabbi]

If your father told you to climb a tree, would you? Probably not. But if he told you to marry someone you loved, to raise children, to get a good job, would you refuse? You see, atheists mix G-d with the father telling his children to climb a tree, but this is not G-d. G-d is the loving father, the One who knows all. What do they say? Father knows best. We didn’t come up with that because we had nothing to do.

I will no longer respond to your comparisons with comic books and the like. No comic book ever saved anyone from the fear of death, nor relaxed them when they lost a loved one. No comic book has divine wisdom in it. It is a silly parallel, in my opinion, and one which shows how many have a lack of understanding of the Divine.

And why should those blessed words be removed from our liturgy? There is a far deeper meaning to them than you think. R. Eliyahu Kitov explains that once there was a king who called for his servants. He gave each a different task. He then appoints a general for the army, and though he has huge responsibility, and will go through a lot of pains, he deserves the merit for his work. Then, he appoints another person as the King’s secret servant. He too will face pains, loss, and the like, and his merit will be well deserved at the end of a long career. But that merit will only be known to the King alone. Should this man feel he is worthless because, unlike the general, no one knows his courage? This is the meaning of the prayer: we should be thankful for our tasks, and don our “medals,” whoever we happen to be, male or female, Jew or Gentile. G-d gave us each an important “mission” in this world, but the general shouldn’t became the secret servant agent, and vice-versa. Whereas a man is active, a woman is passive; this should not be seen as being anti-feminist. It is not. A man will more likely become an avid chess player, bent on “crushing” his opponent, but a woman, she sees the whole picture. She nurtures, and is the heart of the home, the family. Look how many women today are upset with raising children? We’ve successfully managed to bring them into our world, that of competition. That of selfishness. That of “crushing” your enemy. It is a great reward to raise children, to watch them grow, to give them the right tools for life, to tackle to hard questions, the doubts, the losses. We need as much of it as we can, G-d knows. It is therefore the woman’s place, as only she can understand our hardships, our pains. Her role, like that of the secret service, is private. Her home is her kingdom. And her reward? G-d knows. Nothing here is patronizing in the least, for the man, after all, cannot do this, for he is the external force. He is the provider of the family. But we can even dig deeper than this. In Judaism, the Shechinah is the “Queen of Shabbat.”

 

[Rabbi]

Every day in the week is masculine, but Shabbat is the most important; it is the day in which we Jews connect with G-d, and in that manifestation, it is therefore feminine. In fact, our Chazal say that at the end of the era - the dawning of the Messianic Age - everything will be feminine, for there will be no more need for progress, in the sense of “crushing” your enemy. The world will be at peace. And all will know the Most High.

Nekeivah tesovev gever, eishet chayil ateret baalah. - Jeremiah 31:21, Proverbs 12:4.

One more thing. What about Gentiles? Doesn’t G-d love them? Of course It does. Then why do we ask thanks for not having been made a Gentile?

I could well ask you this: before creation, there were no borders, no barriers, no distinctions, and no point in existence. Why? Because G-d was all there is, and G-d was unity.

But G-d wanted a challenge. Being in unison wasn’t enough, if It wanted that, well, It already had it. So G-d took part in the most greatest act of all: creation. but with it, came borders, barriers, and distinctions. With it, came defections. Existence. But also, disunion. There was, for instance, the division between body and soul, male and female, Jew and Gentile. This extends all to nations and language, culture and ideas. But the deepest unity is found with diversity, if each does its part. If we’re all the same, big deal. But if we’re different, and each person, each thought, can bring something unique, and utterly miraculous to the table… that’s something indeed. and when we recognize one G-d, we would have finally created unity, in face of our diversity. What else could be more meaningful? Now you see why G-d needs us, to complete Itself. To help blur the borders, the borders, the distinctions. This is why Jews should be Jews, and non-Jews, non-Jews. Men, men, and women, women. All of us were born with a mission, now it’s up to you if you chose to accept it.

 

[Bradskii]

Did Chris Hitchens ever visit North Korea?

Yes. Christopher Hitchens - On North Korea

 

[Rabbi]

How are you sure there isn’t life after to death? When I say there is, you call me arrogant, but you somehow escape that label?

Universal negatives do exist, after all, cats are not dogs, don’t be silly here. So, in a way, it can be proven. But G-d cannot be denied or proved. You know that as well as I do.

 

[Rabbi]

I’m human, I make mistakes! Haha. Okay, at least he got out safely.

 

[Gorgias]

You are not qualified to “fix” anything. If you assert that “life” is not the same as “physical (biological) life”, bring up evidence.

Let’s see: you’re on a Catholic site, discussing eternal life in a forum dedicated to philosophy. Yeah… clearly, when you state a materialist perspective as if it’s the only true perspective, you must be correct.

(p.s., one cannot submit empirical evidence for spiritual realities. Demanding such ‘evidence’ is itself evidence that you’re not operating in good faith.)

 

[Rabbi]

Right, anything spiritual will likely not be proven by empirical evidence in the near future since it is outside our observation, or our reality. That, however, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. The atheist’s mindset is as follows (and I’m aware the example isn’t perfect): an avid chess player has no bones inside him, because I can’t directly observe it.

 

[Rabbi]

It is one of “anything goes.” And you know what, there very well might be yellow stripped unicorns out there, we might have just not found them yet!

Again, you’re looking at the paint on the surface of the chessboard, and assuming that since its built of paint, wood can not be the underlying reality of the board. This is, of course, false. Therefore, you cannot disprove an after life simply because you don’t see it. This is just like looking at the paint, but not the wood.

 

[Rabbi]

And THAT is your fallacy. You expect me to prove life after death. I will not fall into that trap. No answer will be sufficient for you, you will just attempt to tear me to shreds and I’m not interested in that, sorry.

 

[Bradskii]

Right, anything spiritual will likely not be proven by empirical evidence in the near future since it is outside our observation, or our reality. That, however, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. The atheist’s mindset is as follows (and I’m aware the example isn’t perfect): an avid chess player has no bones inside him, because I can’t directly observe it.

That has to be the wierdest example I’ve read but however…

Being a skeptic does not mean refuting all claims and doubting all evidence. So I have no reason to doubt that my chess playing buddy is lacking a skelton. In fact, I hace every reason to assume he does. I would also have no reason to disbelieve him if he said he had a cat called Tiddles. It has zero effect on how I live me life. So I would ask for no evidence. His word would be good enough.

However, if he said that there was an existence to be had after physical death, then that is a claim that would have the biggest effect it could possibly have on me in my entire life. And I’m sure you would agree that I would be remiss if I did not ask him for evidence to back up his claim.

Extraordinary claims etc.

If he has no evidence - and he won’t have any, then being a fully paid up member of the Bradskii Skeptics Association, I would be obliged to tell him that I didn’t believe him.

 

[Gorgias]

You are always encouraged to bring up evidence for your assertions.

You are always encouraged to request appropriate evidence. Since you are unable to do that, and even admit it, your contribution is interesting.

 

[Bradskii]

No answer will be sufficient for you, you will just attempt to tear me to shreds and I’m not interested in that, sorry.

I’ll back Sheldon up here. There can be evidence. There can be an answer. There can be proof. That you can’t provide it isn’t our problem. Until you do then we won’t believe you.

Can’t be fairer than that…

 

[Rabbi]

Why is it that the atheist dreams and loves living in a world where there is no purpose, where loved ones die, and where there is no moral compass? Perhaps he wants it that way? I don’t know why, as I’m not an atheist.

If you want proof of G-d, I cannot give it. What proof could we give? Perhaps the greatest of them all won’t come from science? Perhaps not even faith? Who knows what we will discover in a hundred years? Our knowledge today, and of the future, is but a dot on a blank page. In other words, we know nothing. And if there isn’t a G-d, then you can’t even rely on your brain chemicals which tell you to reject It, as those are just finite chemicles which can’t open the chest of truth. So how can you logically rely on failing chronicles? This is a logical question.

In the end, the person of faith lives in a warm universe of purpose, whereas the person of no faith lives in a cold, dark place, where humanity means nothing. You may say I’m being selfish in saying humanity needs a place in the stars, but aren’t you selfish to care for your family? You’d save your wife first over a stranger, isn’t that just as selfish? Examin these things first, then decide for yourself if G-d exists or not.

 

[Bradskii]

Why is it that the atheist dreams and loves living in a world where there is no purpose, where loved ones die, and where there is no moral compass?

If that’s what you’d prefer to believe then go for it. And no-one asked for proof of God but proof of an afterlife. If it existed then it would be easy to do. Can you think of how it could be done?

 

[Rabbi]

You are trying to put me in a trap, but let me try and answer your inquiry in a way that might feel somewhat unusual (oh, and by the way, yes, that avid chess player of mine is kind of nuts, I agree, haha, it’s why I came up with a less graphic analogy, that of the chessboard).

The following is my answer for proof of an after life:

What is agnosticism? Thomas Huxley said it was the “doctrine that humans cannot know of the existence of anything beyond the phenomena of their experience.” Bertrand Russell went a little further with his manifesto. He said “That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspirations, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of the universe in ruins-all these things, if not beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built.”

And I doubt he believed a word of it. After all, till his dying day, the man committed himself to teaching good ethics. It’s also the reason why we care to get married, raise kids, and do the right thing. Why? Because we feel there’s something beyond us. That life, after all, does have purpose. Until our last breath, every single person on earth believes all that I’ve just said. In the words of the sixth Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn “We are all believers in G‑d. It is just a matter of definition."

So you have to ask yourself what it is you truly believe. Why do you care about your kids rather than just making another buck?

Perhaps only through such a deep analysis, you will find G-d, and the truth of meaning, culminating in life after life. As Leo Tolstoy once said, this life is but a dream. After death, the real life begins. I have more reason to believe he was right than blind faith. Maybe someday you will find that too. All you need to do is look.

 

[Bradskii]

Perhaps only through such a deep analysis, you will find G-d, and the truth of meaning, culminating in life after life. As Leo Tolstoy once said, this life is but a dream. After death, the real life begins. I have more reason to believe he was right than blind faith. Maybe someday you will find that too. All you need to do is look.

If you sense any frustration in this post it’s because it’s in response to someone who implies that it’s only through some ‘deep analysis’ that I am going to reach a point where life begins to make any sense.

I have had such nonsense posted in my direction from people barely older than my kids. As if I have been wandering through life blinking in the brilliant light shone on me by those who are so much better than I am at demystifying existence and all it means. As if I haven’t spent any time at all pondering life’s mysteries and examining myself and my attitudes and my beliefs and holding them up to that which others believe.

The implication is always that I have not been looking hard enough. That I’m not putting in the hard yards. That I am destined to remain a poor schmuck forever missing out on the Truth. Which nearly always has a capital T.

But, Rabbi, my old buddy, I have been around the block a lot more than a few times. I have read more books on religion than most people on this forum are likely to have done. I have spent more time thinking about what life actually means than some shavers, who have had the temerity to suggest that it’s actually what I need to do, have actually been in existence.

I may not believe what you do. I may have beliefs that are in direct contrast to yours. And I may be wrong. But if someone wants to suggest that it’s because of lack of trying or a failure on my part in some way then the next post will be all capitals and the mods will insist that I spend sometime in the forum equivalent of the Twilight Zone.

Believe what you will. But be prepared to be challenged if you claim it to be true.