Atheists can be in heaven?

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There is no need to repeat this.
If ya’ll are gonna repeat the lie, I’ll repeat the truth. 😉
Ok I feel i have to say this. I was just trying to get (name removed by moderator)ut and I’d appreciate y’all not coming at each other.
Fair enough. 👍
I just tend to see red when folks misrepresent Church teaching, and have the chutzpah to assert that their misrepresentation is what the Church actually teaches. 🤷‍♂️
The pope’s comments were directed at me (well, not me personally). Are you saying I should ignore them?
No. We’d appreciate it if you didn’t mischaracterize them, though. 😉
 
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Bradskii:
The pope’s comments were directed at me (well, not me personally). Are you saying I should ignore them?
No. We’d appreciate it if you didn’t mischaracterize them, though. 😉
Maybe you missed the pope’s quote I posted above?

Edit: There does seem to a sense of frustration in some posts regarding this matter. Almost as if some people are complaining that they are good Christians, they go to mass, they confess their sins, they pray, they submit themselves to God and all the atheists have to do is be good!
 
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‘God has the heart of a father, your father was a good man, he is in heaven with Him, be sure .’
Now I’m really disappointed in you. You’re using a later quote, regarding a different situation, and discussing a different facet of theology, in order to support your claims regarding an earlier unrelated quote? Disappointing… 😦
Maybe you missed the pope’s quote I posted above?
You’re talking about the 2015 quote? No, I saw it – in fact, that was the quote to which I was responding! 😉
 
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Bradskii:
‘God has the heart of a father, your father was a good man, he is in heaven with Him, be sure .’
Now I’m really disappointed in you. You’re using a later quote, regarding a different situation, and discussing a different facet of theology, in order to support your claims regarding an earlier unrelated quote? Disappointing… 😦
Maybe you missed the pope’s quote I posted above?
You’re talking about the 2015 quote? No, I saw it – in fact, that was the quote to which I was responding! 😉
Are you still saying that atheists cannot get to heaven? That is the question at hand.
 
That there are no atheists in heaven is not the most astute comment posted this week
Perhaps.
But the corollary there would be that they must give up atheism to make it to heaven.

Whether that happens here or in the hereafter remains to be seen.
 
Actually, I don’t think that that statement is very astute at all. It may be just as likely that there are no Catholics in heaven. We can’t simply assume that the Catholic version of heaven is the correct one. There may be a heaven with no God in it at all.
On this Catholic forum, Catholic teaching is taken as fact.
 
But even if there were, there would probably be people who believed in God, and those who didn’t believe in God. Unless of course we’re all omniscient in heaven.
Heaven is being in God’s presence.
One can no longer deny God at that point.
 
If that would be the case, there should be an explicit disclaimer: “non-Catholics” are not welcome here! But there is no such rule, only that non-Catholics must respect the Catholic view. But respect does not imply agreement
No one said agreement.
Nor did anyone say anyone was unwelcome.
 
Are you still saying that atheists cannot get to heaven? That is the question at hand.
That was never my position. Rather, I was pointing out that your assertion that Francis’ 2015 comments were about atheists attaining to heaven was in error.

The Church has taught, explicitly, that “those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.” (Lumen gentium, #16) So, it would be ludicrous for me to assert that the Church teaches that atheists categorically cannot attain to heaven.
 
If there you are concerned about this for the concept of your deity, then why would you worship a deity who would have that as a character flaw? Makes heaven sound like a divine North Korea. Where worship and thought crime is more important than living a moral life. Pretty sure christianity got the deities exactly backwards on who to worship.
 
So if I go to heaven and meet Jesus, what is it that He could possibly “ reveal ” to me that would prove that He exists independent of my own mind?
With fixed heed, suspense and motionless,
Wond’ring I gaz’d; and admiration still
Was kindled, as I gaz’d. It may not be,
That one, who looks upon that light, can turn
To other object, willingly, his view.

Not that the semblance of the living light
Was chang’d (that ever as at first remain’d)
But that my vision quickening, in that sole
Appearance, still new miracles descry’d,
And toil’d me with the change. In that abyss
Of radiance, clear and lofty, seem’d methought,
Three orbs of triple hue clipt in one bound:
And, from another, one reflected seem’d,
As rainbow is from rainbow: and the third
Seem’d fire, breath’d equally from both. Oh speech
How feeble and how faint art thou, to give
Conception birth! Yet this to what I saw
Is less than little. Oh eternal light!
Sole in thyself that dwellst; and of thyself
Sole understood, past, present, or to come!
Thou smiledst; on that circling, which in thee
Seem’d as reflected splendour, while I mus’d;

For I therein, methought, in its own hue
Beheld our image painted: steadfastly
I therefore por’d upon the view. As one
Who vers’d in geometric lore, would fain
Measure the circle; and, though pondering long
And deeply, that beginning, which he needs,
Finds not; e’en such was I, intent to scan
The novel wonder, and trace out the form,
How to the circle fitted, and therein
How plac’d: but the flight was not for my wing;
Had not a flash darted athwart my mind,
And in the spleen unfolded what it sought.

Here vigour fail’d the tow’ring fantasy:
But yet the will roll’d onward, like a wheel
In even motion, by the Love impell’d
,
That moves the sun in heav’n and all the stars.
Dante Paradiso Canto 34.
 
You’re getting this straight from the mouth of Christ Hitchens, but he turned his back on the Jewish people, he betrayed us. We don’t have a hell, not at all, and Gan Eden won’t be a celestial North Korea. I find those that have childish depictions of G-d think of Him in such ways. You need to first read up some Rambam before you think there is no “intelligence” to people of faith. I bet that the Rambam was one of the smartest men who ever lived! He came up with the physician’s oath and was writing in his early 20s. What a feat!

Therefore, don’t reject religion because you think its childish or doesn’t make sense.
 
I find those that have childish depictions of G-d think of Him in such ways.
Atheists don’t have depictions of God. We have to rely on the depictions given to us by those who believe in Him.
 
You never read a word of Rambam, and yet you’re saying you’ve already got the picture? To be fair, the god most atheists loath (I’m going to assume you don’t) is the Christian one, not the Jewish one. HaShem wasn’t born of a virgin, didn’t die on a cross, nor paid for anyone’s sins. I only say this because you’re dealing with Catholics, you might even be an “ex-Catholic,” therefore, I’m new in this conversation, and, of course, I don’t expect you to know a shred of Judaism since you didn’t grow up Jewish. To give you a slight example of this, there are many midrashim, many aggadot, but do you have to take it all literally? Do demons exist? No. They’re just your shadow, says the Gemara.

Judaism is much like Rick and Morty, earth and space. Whereas Christians believe god came into this world in a three-dimensional form, much like a vase, and at the same time, being the all-powerful Creator, Jews reject this view. Yes, the Creator has unlimited potential and is unbounded by space-time, but we can’t describe it - the Ein Sof. The only way we can describe HaShem is a minute ago, twenty minutes ago, an hour ago, two years ago, all the way back before you were born and think past that and past that and even past that to all creation and even then, past that. Or, go the other way, think of the future. Thirty minutes from now, an hour from now, eternity. It is infinite, boundless. If It did exist in this world as a three-dimensional object, that would mean plurality, that G-d is more than one. But this isn’t Judaism. HaShem is one, in fact, It is the only thing we can truly rely on as being One. Throughout Tanakh and rabbinic commentary, we get this metaphorical descriptions of G-d, but HaShem doesn’t sit in a throne room, It doesn’t have feet, nor does It hear out any subjects, as if It would be in need of that. HaShem doesn’t even need the world, we have nothing to offer G-d. G-d has everything to offer us, out of pure devotion to the Creation. So when G-d hears our prayers, It is lowering Itself towards humanity, to be on our level, as you lower yourself to speak with a child. It cannot run around in the world in flesh, even if It wanted to. Christians say, “Well, G-d can do anything, couldn’t It become human then?” No. G-d doesn’t waste time deciding if It should make a rock too heavy to lift it or not, and It certainty can’t do everything. After all, can G-d be stupid? This would, again, be a waste of time, and G-d doesn’t waste time. Nonetheless, I gave you a mere hint of what G-d is. To find the rest, you have to read your Daf Yomi (Talmud Bavli = Gemara/Mishnah), your daily Torah portion, Yad Hazaka, Moreh Nevukhim, Tosephta, Mekhilta, Sifre, Sifra, Talmud Yerushalmi, and kabbalistic texts. All of Jewish tradition. The whole deal. Only then can you say, with any confidence, that you can speak on HaShem’s behalf as a representative of It, and, therefore, make the claim: “Atheists don’t have depictions of God. We have to rely on the depictions given to us by those who believe in Him.”

Because just reading the Bible alone is never enough.
 
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I wonder if there is “credit” for following the practice and intent of the Gospel without really knowing where it came from? The way Christ and the Church are potrayed now is unrecognizeable from the truth.
 
What do you mean by this? Are you prior Second Vatican? That said all Jews were responsible for his death, and that’s not true at all. It was the Romans.
 
Lumen Gentium, the dogmatic constitution on the Church from Vatican II says in paragraph 16, “Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things.”

The Church is clear that those that do not know the Lord Jesus and who live according to their conscience and the prompting of the Holy Spirit will be saved. It is helpful to remember that while going through the Church is the best course of action, the Holy Spirit goes where he wills (Jn 3:8) and is not bound by the limitations of church walls.

Chapter II of Lumen Gentium talks about universal salvation, paragraphs 13-17 are going to help you most!

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
 
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